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 Post subject: Re: "Other" Steelers owners want to fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:12 am 
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Jeemie wrote:
BarryFoster wrote:
Steelafan77 wrote:
I know this opinion won't be popular. I keep Tomlin. Yes he has a checkered past with the .500 bottom feeder losses. Yes he makes infuriating decisions at times in game. He is also the highest winning coach in his first 10+ years only Shula topping him. That has to mean something. He has been if nothing better a constant in the evolution of this team over the past 10+ seasons. I wouldn't really want to fuck with that continuity in probably Ben's last 3 seasons in Pittsburgh. That said, I fire both coordinators. Replace Mann as everyone thinks he is all but retired. I start the coordinator replacement process by promoting Fichtner to OC. I take a long hard look at who's who for a DC and continue to make that transition to a 43 defense. If Butler wanted to stay on I put him back into his LB'ing position coach and fire Porter. I look for a replacement for Lake who seemingly can't coach like he once played. Effectively and productively. I fire Danny Smith who hasn't done shit since his hire to improve ST's play. Not gutting the staff just making some wholesale changes I believe to be beneficial for the team going forward. Then I start pouring over the player talent on the team and cut the excess fat from this team. Gay, Mitchell, Sensabaugh for starters. The ones that are FA.., C-ya. I do try to keep Hubbard whom I think has played his way off this roster. Ridley I try to keep as well.


It means a talented team wins most games despite having a complete fucking idiot masquerading as HC.


As much as I am angry with Tomlin, teams don't "just win" despite their coach.


Well actually with this roster they shouldn’t “just win” versus shit teams....and they did that a lot this year. Barely squeaking out wins vs weak competition.

I can stand on the sidelines like a deer in the headlights too.

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 Post subject: Re: "Other" Steelers owners want to fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:18 am 
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BarryFoster wrote:
Steelafan77 wrote:
I know this opinion won't be popular. I keep Tomlin. Yes he has a checkered past with the .500 bottom feeder losses. Yes he makes infuriating decisions at times in game. He is also the highest winning coach in his first 10+ years only Shula topping him. That has to mean something. He has been if nothing better a constant in the evolution of this team over the past 10+ seasons. I wouldn't really want to fuck with that continuity in probably Ben's last 3 seasons in Pittsburgh. That said, I fire both coordinators. Replace Mann as everyone thinks he is all but retired. I start the coordinator replacement process by promoting Fichtner to OC. I take a long hard look at who's who for a DC and continue to make that transition to a 43 defense. If Butler wanted to stay on I put him back into his LB'ing position coach and fire Porter. I look for a replacement for Lake who seemingly can't coach like he once played. Effectively and productively. I fire Danny Smith who hasn't done shit since his hire to improve ST's play. Not gutting the staff just making some wholesale changes I believe to be beneficial for the team going forward. Then I start pouring over the player talent on the team and cut the excess fat from this team. Gay, Mitchell, Sensabaugh for starters. The ones that are FA.., C-ya. I do try to keep Hubbard whom I think has played his way off this roster. Ridley I try to keep as well.


It means a talented team wins most games despite having a complete fucking idiot masquerading as HC.



They might have to keep him in some other capacity or their motives for hiring him in this PC off its axis culture will boomerang back in a negative way and might reverberate in the lockerroom. Because of Tomlin emotion is disproportionately running through the lockerroom.

If the reports about shareholders are true they should circumvent Rooney and approach MM or someone else. If MM strike a deal with a time limit, put him under a LOI subject to a firm date so he doesn't lose other opportunities. For PC they may have to ease MM in, assistant HC in title but all the power. The window for canning this shithead is either going to close or open wider, the shareholders should seize this opportuniy and protect their investment.


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 Post subject: Re: "Other" Steelers owners want to fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:22 am 
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BarryFoster wrote:
Well actually with this roster they shouldn’t “just win” versus shit teams....and they did that a lot this year. Barely squeaking out wins vs weak competition.

I can stand on the sidelines like a deer in the headlights too.


No they shouldn't...however again, as angry as we are at Mike Tomlin, that's not all he does.

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 Post subject: Re: "Other" Steelers owners want to fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:27 am 
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Jeemie wrote:
BarryFoster wrote:
Well actually with this roster they shouldn’t “just win” versus shit teams....and they did that a lot this year. Barely squeaking out wins vs weak competition.

I can stand on the sidelines like a deer in the headlights too.


No they shouldn't...however again, as angry as we are at Mike Tomlin, that's not all he does.


I know....he unleashes hell, removes ping pong tables and creates an environment where players spout off about playing their next playoff opponent before taking on the team at hand.

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 Post subject: Re: "Other" Steelers owners want to fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:31 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
Stallworth16 wrote:
My argument is that it's possible that replacing Tomlin lowers our chances. I'm assuming Ben himself wants Tomlin to stay. And I also think Tomlin probably will stay.


It only lowers you chance if you believe Tomlin has the goods to win a SB. If you believe he does, then you don't make a change. Personally I probably make Munchak HC, Fitchner OC, and go find a DC.

Defense has been an absolute dumpster fire in the last two playoff games. Tomlin is supposed to be a defensive guy. Return game in ST has been nowhere to be found FOR YEARS. Aside from his regular season record, I can't think of one reason to keep the guy. He's been getting outcoached in the playoffs for years and there's no signs or evidence that will change.

I agree Ben probably wants him back, and that SHOULD be the only thing saving Tomlin's job.


For those who do not want to blow up the whole staff by firing Tomlin.
With the argument that too much change at this point in Bens career.

The above bolded would be a pretty good move of not turning the boat upside down.
Munchak would bring familiarity and can continue his work/mentorship with OL.
Fichner would slide right in and continue his closer work with Ben that he did the second half of season.
Between the two of them, they should be able to purge the Tomlin and Haley play calls and failures at critical moments in game.

I believe Munchak, as a HOF OL, would certainly lean heavy towards picking up 3rd and 4th and inches the old fashioned way, instead of cute stupidity that we see every year under Tomlin.
He can not be possibly any worse than Tomlin at clock management, time-out usage, end of game management, challenges, etc. He had a front row seat for 4-5 years of first hand failures of what not to do.

That being said, Munchak, Fichner, Daniels, Ward? and Batch? would provide great continuity for the offense.

That brings you to the defensive side of the ball.
Wow.

Would have loved if Wade Phillips was still sitting home somewhere.
Plop Buddy Ryan in a chair on the sideline and the defense improves overnight.....simply by looking at and studying some of the things he did with defenses. Hang air fresheners from the chair if need be.

There are core pieces on the team on the defensive side of the ball.

Cam, Tuit, Hargrave, Alualu, Walton. Thats some good to very good talent. A failure to adapt, change, scheme.........did these guys in.
I have to believe the Tuit injury made him a shadow of what he should have been this year. His less than stellar play may have opened up opponents eye to pay more attention to Hargrave?

You add some freaky 6'-5" - 6'-6" - 270 -280lb. athletic pass rushing DE's to that core and your front 4 rotation can be nasty, considering the aforementioned guys will not see the double teams play after play.
You add one early in the draft, you add a vet in that mold via FA and you give Dupree a year as strickly a pass rusher................rotating with the other two. You see what Kion Adams has in camp. You draft another one of these pass rushers at the end of the draft and you invite another two to camp as UDFA.
Chickillo may have a role in that pass rushing DE rotation, as he was a DE in college. Camp will tell and he at least plays a good deal of ST's

Watt, Williams, Spence, Fort, Dupree, Chick, Moats, Dirty Red................that is as barren a LB corp we have had in awhile. When Shaz went down, it derailed the middle of the field defense, specifically coverage and pass defense. We saw first hand how Spence was a few inches away from a few critical pass plays, how he was not quick enough to holes, how Fort could not be quicker to wrap a third down pass play.
And to compound the blow to the LB corp with Shaz.............Tomlins ego and personnel agenda deemed it wise to lose probably your best pass rushing LB in Harrison.

Tell me in October that the PS would lose Shaz and cut Harrison with-in a few weeks in December, how would we look come the playoffs.

Hence, we probably need to draft 2, ILB's. Along with a dip into FA. Probably a vet to pair with the young guys.
None of Spence, Moats, Fort, DR are starting ILB's. On top of that you can only think of bring back 2 of those 4 for ST's and 4th ILB. Or 2 of the 4 fighting for one roster spot.
Vince Williams was pretty damn good next to Shazier.
He would also be the guy coming off the field in third and long plays.

The secondary can also use a good purge.
Mitchell, Gay, Sensabaugh need to go. If Tomlin stays, at least one, maybe two has a good chance at staying.
Hoping Mitchells antics and poor play has written his own ticket.
Wilcox has ball skills, size and speed and is still young at 26. Do not think he has the smart to read and react as a FS...............He may have value as a back-up SS and dime package specialist covering big TE's
Just not at $3m plus.
Golden is not starter material, plays alot of ST and would be 4th safety at best.

That being said, along with 2 ILB,......the Steelers need to double dip at the safety spot. Or One high draft and a dip into FA.
Between Mitchell, Wilcox you have over $8 million per to go get a pretty good safety.
Gay and Sensabaugh money adds another few million..........bringing the total of MM, JJ Wilox, WG, CS to over $11 million.

Haden, Burns, Sutton, Hilton, Allen are 5 pretty good pieces.
A new voice and direction for Burns and maybe a full camp under Hadens wing can get this kid back to his rookie season.
The promise of Sutton and potential of Allen has me comfortable at CB.

Main things to fix with this defense were Mitchell, ILB ( Shaz loss ) and a new direction for the defensive line.

Draft.
1. ILB/S
2. S/ILB
3. DE/ pass rusher
4. ILB/S
5. S / ILB / DE best avaialble
6. WR/RB
7. DE - freaky flyer here

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Last edited by Stosh-67 on Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: "Other" Steelers owners want to fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:34 am 
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Mike Munchak has been a great OL coach.

He wasn't all that as a HC...and not just because he didn't have a lot of talent at Tennessee.

Sometimes excelling at on level of coaching doesn't mean one will be great at the next level.

If you're going to change head coaches...go look for someone young with fresh ideas. I think Ben could handle the change.

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 Post subject: Re: "Other" Steelers owners want to fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:39 am 
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Jeemie wrote:
Mike Munchak has been a great OL coach.

He wasn't all that as a HC...and not just because he didn't have a lot of talent at Tennessee.

Sometimes excelling at on level of coaching doesn't mean one will be great at the next level.

If you're going to change head coaches...go look for someone young with fresh ideas. I think Ben could handle the change.


Jeems, sometimes, stepping away from the helm opens ones eyes and a coach evolves.

I see mentioned above...........possibly making MM assistant head coach to keep him in Pittsburgh ( away from AZ ) as a thought.
MM is a PA guy, born in Scranton, PA
Who stayed home for college at Penn State.
I 'm sure he would love to stay

Adds a little pressure on Tomlin.
Tho it may make him more arrogant and stubborn in his ways.

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 Post subject: Re: "Other" Steelers owners want to fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:46 am 
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What we really need from Mike Tomlin is a Coming to Jesus Moment where he takes a hard look at his team as is and decides what each unit does best...and builds the future off that.

On offense, we do best when our skill players are unleashed...design the offense to fully exploit that and drop all the nonsense horizontal crap that they are not good at.

On defense, although they didn't show up Sunday, the DL is the strength. Build the future of the defense off that base.

Scrap this idea of "flexibility" and concentrate on what each unit does best. Keep it Simple.

The chief reasons we've been squandering this talent are a) we don't optimize around what we do best and b) we don't pay attention to the little details that set the team up for success.

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Last edited by Jeemie on Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: "Other" Steelers owners want to fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:52 am 
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Stallworth16 wrote:
My Point is that a coaching change does Not usually make things better. It usually makes things WORSE. Look at the Broncos. They won the SB like 2 years ago.

The worst part is when things get Worse, you go into "the Coach needs 3 years to get his guys in here and implement his system." And usually those teams just stay bad.


But then again, I'd be ecstatic with someone who just came in and whipped these guys asses into shape and WON A SUPER BOWL before Ben retires, like Gruden did with TB, or the Broncos 2 years ago, EVEN IF they had 5 straight losing seasons after that, of course, I've always been willing to sell my soul to the devil and risk a few 4-12s, rather than play it safe to make sure you never go below 8-8. I'd be HAPPY to have a Broncos like experience.


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 Post subject: Re: "Other" Steelers owners want to fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:08 am 
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The shareholders have every right and motive to add value to their shares/investment and nothing adds value to a NFL franchise like a SB. Isolating the NE and Jax playoff games Tomlin is an impediment to increasing value.

The issue for MM in Nashville was talent and ownership. Example, ownership demanded drafting Vince Young.

Once this light illuminated the shareholders will not back down. They know they've got one more season with this offense and then poof it's gone. Tomlin cannot adapt if given one more chance, he's incapable. It's now, very soon or it'll be wasted.


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 Post subject: Re: "Other" Steelers owners want to fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:16 am 
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The only way Tomlin is fired is if he is caught sniffing cocaine off an underage hooker at this point. We all know this. So we have to let go of this pipe dream.

So, knowing that, what is the next best alternative? New OC and DC coordinators. I don't know how Fitch is as a playcaller or as someone who designs plays. In my next OC, I want someone above all who is a good PLAYCALLER. Someone who has flow and builds off of previous plays. Someone who is creative.

In a DC, I'm not looking for a mad scientist. We have some dumb players out there, so I want someone who will simplify the scheme and maximize what these guys do best.

Above all, we need 2 coordinators focused on DETAIL. We need guys drilling all of the little things. We also need guys who aren't fckin stubborn and prideful. If you are getting gashed versus the run, then why not adjust to a front 4 defensive lineup? I guarantee you the Cheats will have an extra Dlineman ready on Sunday to plug the holes. They will put less pressure on the safeties to over commit and they won't be suckers for play action.

Butler had the whole year to fix the run D and he never did. He never adjusted. He kept trotting out the same formation even against shit QBs. He had all season to correct the miscommunications in the secondary. It never happened. He should have been fired a long time ago.


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 Post subject: Re: "Other" Steelers owners want to fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:17 am 
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Old School Steeler wrote:
The shareholders have every right and motive to add value to their shares/investment and nothing adds value to a NFL franchise like a SB. Isolating the NE and Jax playoff games Tomlin is an impediment to increasing value.

The issue for MM in Nashville was talent and ownership. Example, ownership demanded drafting Vince Young.

Once this light illuminated the shareholders will not back down. They know they've got one more season with this offense and then poof it's gone. Tomlin cannot adapt if given one more chance, he's incapable. It's now, very soon or it'll be wasted.


We've got to be really careful here that we're not projecting our own beliefs onto the as-yet unnamed minority owners.

I agree with your post here (except the MM "talent-only" bit, but we can agree to disagree. MM has done a great job with the line- I am dubious that translates to a quality HC, except maybe for the tight, disciplined approach bit). And some of the quotes suggest the minority owners might be thinking this. But we don't really know.

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 Post subject: Re: "Other" Steelers owners want to fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:20 am 
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franco32 wrote:
The only way Tomlin is fired is if he is caught sniffing cocaine off an underage hooker at this point. We all know this. So we have to let go of this pipe dream.

So, knowing that, what is the next best alternative? New OC and DC coordinators. I don't know how Fitch is as a playcaller or as someone who designs plays. In my next OC, I want someone above all who is a good PLAYCALLER. Someone who has flow and builds off of previous plays. Someone who is creative.

In a DC, I'm not looking for a mad scientist. We have some dumb players out there, so I want someone who will simplify the scheme and maximize what these guys do best.

Above all, we need 2 coordinators focused on DETAIL. We need guys drilling all of the little things. We also need guys who aren't fckin stubborn and prideful. If you are getting gashed versus the run, then why not adjust to a front 4 defensive lineup? I guarantee you the Cheats will have an extra Dlineman ready on Sunday to plug the holes. They will put less pressure on the safeties to over commit and they won't be suckers for play action.

Butler had the whole year to fix the run D and he never did. He never adjusted. He kept trotting out the same formation even against shit QBs. He had all season to correct the miscommunications in the secondary. It never happened. He should have been fired a long time ago.


Yep- in a nutshell:

1) On offense, we need an OC who will design the offense around what our skill players do BEST.
2) On defense, we need someone who will come up with a simple effective scheme that teaches discipline and cuts down on communication errors.

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 Post subject: Re: "Other" Steelers owners want to fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:36 am 
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One wildcard in all of this is Mike Munchak. He is one person who I could see the Rooneys replacing Tomlin. Munchak at HC, Fichtner at OC, and a new DC would be a nice mixture of change and stability, and it would prevent the Steelers from losing their best coaching asset.

EDIT: I see that this has already been discussed. I understand that Munchak wasn't particularly successful in his first stint as HC, but maybe he's learned some things, and maybe he'd be just enough of a change to bridge the gap. I'm not in the die-hard fire Tomlin camp at the moment, but I would not like seeing Munchak leave.


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 Post subject: Re: "Other" Steelers owners want to fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:40 am 
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W&M_Steeler wrote:
One wildcard in all of this is Mike Munchak. He is one person who I could see the Rooneys replacing Tomlin. Munchak at HC, Fichtner at OC, and a new DC would be a nice mixture of change and stability, and it would prevent the Steelers from losing their best coaching asset.

EDIT: I see that this has already been discussed. I understand that Munchak wasn't particularly successful in his first stint as HC, but maybe he's learned some things, and maybe he'd be just enough of a change to bridge the gap. I'm not in the die-hard fire Tomlin camp at the moment, but I would not like seeing Munchak leave.


Munchak took himself out of consideration for the Cards' job. Schefter just reported it.

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 Post subject: Re: "Other" Steelers owners want to fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:41 am 
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Jeemie wrote:
W&M_Steeler wrote:
One wildcard in all of this is Mike Munchak. He is one person who I could see the Rooneys replacing Tomlin. Munchak at HC, Fichtner at OC, and a new DC would be a nice mixture of change and stability, and it would prevent the Steelers from losing their best coaching asset.

EDIT: I see that this has already been discussed. I understand that Munchak wasn't particularly successful in his first stint as HC, but maybe he's learned some things, and maybe he'd be just enough of a change to bridge the gap. I'm not in the die-hard fire Tomlin camp at the moment, but I would not like seeing Munchak leave.


Munchak took himself out of consideration for the Cards' job. Schefter just reported it.


I just saw that too. Good. That makes me think that something is brewing behind the scenes in Pittsburgh.


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 Post subject: Re: "Other" Steelers owners want to fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:57 am 
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franco32 wrote:
Butler had the whole year to fix the run D and he never did. He never adjusted. He kept trotting out the same formation even against shit QBs. He had all season to correct the miscommunications in the secondary. It never happened. He should have been fired a long time ago.


It's the Steeler way bullshit, can't fire coach, must be 3-4 forever, can't change, EVER! Why is that? the '70s Steelers won with 4-3, then one day in the '80s, they made it 3-4, and since then it's like a religion, CAN'T CHANGE IT EVER. I still often feel like they want to play the Cowher ball control, keep it close, chew clock game, even though they should try to score fast, fast, fast and purposely turn every game into a track meet with this talent.


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 Post subject: Re: "Other" Steelers owners want to fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:26 pm 
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fortythree wrote:
Obviously wrote:
Stallworth16 wrote:
So Old School who would you hire as Head Coach for Ben's last years?

My original point is that when playoff teams fire their head coach it usually doesn't go well.


So you're just fine with Tomlin then? You're good with the playoff failure of the past nine seasons with the talent this team has had? You're okay with his teams being the Patriots' and Belichick's bitch? You like all the fucking drama such as players tweeting, talking shit right outside the opponent's locker room, and Facebook Live casts from their own locker room? You were happy with what transpired on Sunday in Pittsburgh with horrendous play calling, a fucking sieve defense that couldn't stop you, me and nine other guys we could pick up off the street for an offense? Well, I guess I can add you to the list of Tomlin defenders left.


No one is happy with playoff failures. But it's not as if every year they're getting to the playoffs fully healthy with a team as good as they had this year offensively.

The team wasn't that good the year they lost to Tebow. Should've won that game but Lebeau's defense failed.

They lost to Baltimore because they were on their 3rd string rb after Blount walked out.

They lost to Denver bc they had no Bell and no AB.

They lost to NE last year because of the defense and Bell getting hurt.

This is the first year in recent memory where there's no excuse for losing in the playoffs when they did.

I'm becoming less and less of a Tomlin fan with each year but I'm not ready to fire him yet.

the tebow loss was easily the worst Steelers playoff loss since 1986, and maybe ever. I ranked them based on relative DVOA and it looks like this:
Worst PIT Playoff Losses By DVOA
year PIT DVOA DVOA OPP difference

2011 PIT 22.6 -11.8 ....@DEN 34.4
1994 PIT 29.8 10.6 ....SD 19.2
2017 PIT 27.1 13.1 ....JAX 14
2010 PIT 35.4 23 ....GB* 12.4
2001 PIT 17.3 7.9 ....NE 9.4
1996 PIT 18.1 10.1 ....@NE 8
2015 PIT 21.3 17.7 ....@DEN 3.6
2004 PIT 37.6 34.2 ....NE 3.4
1992 PIT 15.4 16 ....BUF -0.6
2002 PIT 6.8 9.2 ....@TEN -2.4
1997 PIT 27 29.6 ....DEN -2.6
2007 PIT 19.4 24.1 ....JAX -4.7
1993 PIT 12.4 19.9 ....@KC -7.5
2016 PIT 17.1 24.9 ....@NE -7.8
2014 PIT 12.1 21.9 ....BAL -9.8
1995 PIT 20.7 32.7 ....DAL* -12
1989 PIT -8.7 19 ....@DEN -27.7

* = Super Bowl

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 Post subject: Re: "Other" Steelers owners want to fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:31 pm 
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The loss to Green Bay should be pushed down that list because if I had to guess, I’d guess Green Bay’s DVOA was depressed because Aaron Rodgers missed a few games.

Also we lost the anchor of our OL to injury right before the Super Bowl.

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 Post subject: Re: "Other" Steelers owners want to fire Tomlin
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:35 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
The loss to Green Bay should be pushed down that list because if I had to guess, I’d guess Green Bay’s DVOA was depressed because Aaron Rodgers missed a few games.

Also we lost the anchor of our OL to injury right before the Super Bowl.
And the Tebow loss was a result of losing hampton and kiesel in the second qtr. Safety's abandoned their over the top coverage to help in defending the run option.

They only had one guy out this year, and had a number of weeks to address the problem. Last year they were relatively healthy on defense, and also got humiliated.

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