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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:16 pm 
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VASteelerGuy wrote:
Tomlin is fine as HC, he'll probably learn a huge lesson from this loss. He'll have a long time to reflect on it. I still believe the OC has to go. While I know the melt down was on the defense, they do not have the depth of talent the offense has.


There's no evidence of this guy learning lessons though. He talks about embracing responsibility, while never actually doing so. He never, ever, ever owns his game-day dumbfuckedness.


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:36 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:

We are stuck in Tomlin pergatory.


This is true. The Catholic Rooney rule has ordained it so.


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:39 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
VASteelerGuy wrote:
Tomlin is fine as HC, he'll probably learn a huge lesson from this loss. He'll have a long time to reflect on it. I still believe the OC has to go. While I know the melt down was on the defense, they do not have the depth of talent the offense has.


There's no evidence of this guy learning lessons though. He talks about embracing responsibility, while never actually doing so. He never, ever, ever owns his game-day dumbfuckedness.


I think this is the biggest issue of all with Tomlin, even for those like myself who have tried hard to make arguments in his defense. As I said yesterday, I think it's naive to think a coach can go 22-4 over a 26 game stretch in this league and not be doing something right. But, and I hate all-caps, but in this case, BUT: the never owning up to mistakes, an unwillingness because of stubborn pride (or whatever it is) to ever look back on a failed moment in a game with even an ounce of humility. Of all his well-versed bingo board sayings, the one that gets me the most is the "not living in our fears" nonsense. For all the obvious failures in clock management over the years, I wish someone would say to him, "you may not be living in your fears, Coach, but you're living with some seriously bad math."


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:56 pm 
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Will-the-Shake wrote:
I think this is the biggest issue of all with Tomlin, even for those like myself who have tried hard to make arguments in his defense. As I said yesterday, I think it's naive to think a coach can go 22-4 over a 26 game stretch in this league and not be doing something right. But, and I hate all-caps, but in this case, BUT: the never owning up to mistakes, an unwillingness because of stubborn pride (or whatever it is) to ever look back on a failed moment in a game with even an ounce of humility. Of all his well-versed bingo board sayings, the one that gets me the most is the "not living in our fears" nonsense. For all the obvious failures in clock management over the years, I wish someone would say to him, "you may not be living in your fears, Coach, but you're living with some seriously bad math."


And there’s another thing. He does live in his fears. He’s apparently afraid to do QB sneaks in fear of injuring Ben. He’s afraid of asking his defense for a stop instead pissing the game away on an onside kick. He’s afraid of opening up the offense in that it will expose his defense. He lives in his fears each and every game.


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:00 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
VASteelerGuy wrote:
Tomlin is fine as HC, he'll probably learn a huge lesson from this loss. He'll have a long time to reflect on it. I still believe the OC has to go. While I know the melt down was on the defense, they do not have the depth of talent the offense has.


There's no evidence of this guy learning lessons though. He talks about embracing responsibility, while never actually doing so. He never, ever, ever owns his game-day dumbfuckedness.


Thank you.

I was actually going to comment about all the “maybe this will be a learning experience” or “hopefully he’s learned a lesson” etc.

Guy is who he is at this point.


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:00 pm 
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Miter Saw wrote:
I think one of the primary reasons Tomlin won't be canned is because ownership knows it was by their heavy hand that Haley was on the staff.

At minimum, they'll give him a shot with a full staff of his guys before the threat to fire is real.

I do like that his seat is uncomfortable.

Probably not a popular opinion, but I don't think firing Tomlin is the ideal option here. I'd much prefer that Tomlin admit (to himself) and learn from the littany of mistakes he's made. I'd much rather he rekindle that notebook geekish persona he came into the position with when he thought he had to prove something. Guess what Mike, you do have to prove yourself again...and when you do, you'll have to do it again.

If this isn't a wake up call, he'll never have one.

He has a lot to offer. Even former (non-steeler) players say they'd love to play for him. I'd rather have a reinvented Tomlin than a new hire at this point in time.

I don't know if that will happen.

thank you. great post that sums up the less than ideal situation with a degree of sanity

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:01 pm 
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VASteelerGuy wrote:
"It's how you play, not what you say," - Tom Brady

Not sure how everyone in the league doesn't get this by now.

you quoted one of the biggest talkers and shit talkers in the NFL

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:04 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Miter Saw wrote:
I think one of the primary reasons Tomlin won't be canned is because ownership knows it was by their heavy hand that Haley was on the staff.

At minimum, they'll give him a shot with a full staff of his guys before the threat to fire is real.

I do like that his seat is uncomfortable.

Probably not a popular opinion, but I don't think firing Tomlin is the ideal option here. I'd much prefer that Tomlin admit (to himself) and learn from the littany of mistakes he's made. I'd much rather he rekindle that notebook geekish persona he came into the position with when he thought he had to prove something. Guess what Mike, you do have to prove yourself again...and when you do, you'll have to do it again.

If this isn't a wake up call, he'll never have one.

He has a lot to offer. Even former (non-steeler) players say they'd love to play for him. I'd rather have a reinvented Tomlin than a new hire at this point in time.

I don't know if that will happen.

thank you. great post that sums up the less than ideal situation with a degree of sanity


So....shall we presume you believe those of us who want Tomlin gone, to be insane?


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:07 pm 
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randomsteelerfan wrote:
Will-the-Shake wrote:
I think this is the biggest issue of all with Tomlin, even for those like myself who have tried hard to make arguments in his defense. As I said yesterday, I think it's naive to think a coach can go 22-4 over a 26 game stretch in this league and not be doing something right. But, and I hate all-caps, but in this case, BUT: the never owning up to mistakes, an unwillingness because of stubborn pride (or whatever it is) to ever look back on a failed moment in a game with even an ounce of humility. Of all his well-versed bingo board sayings, the one that gets me the most is the "not living in our fears" nonsense. For all the obvious failures in clock management over the years, I wish someone would say to him, "you may not be living in your fears, Coach, but you're living with some seriously bad math."


And there’s another thing. He does live in his fears. He’s apparently afraid to do QB sneaks in fear of injuring Ben. He’s afraid of asking his defense for a stop instead pissing the game away on an onside kick. He’s afraid of opening up the offense in that it will expose his defense. He lives in his fears each and every game.


B-I-N-G-O. The coach speak drivel doesn’t match the product on the field, in the least.


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:21 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
VASteelerGuy wrote:
"It's how you play, not what you say," - Tom Brady

Not sure how everyone in the league doesn't get this by now.

you quoted one of the biggest talkers and shit talkers in the NFL


They don’t talk shit until AFTER they’ve beaten you.

That’s the difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:37 pm 
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SP wrote:
What an embarrassment. A half hour of bullshit sound bites is nothing new, but his responses to direct questions were just awful.

The questions started out centered around all of the talk by him and his team. The Dungy interview. Mitchell and Bells quotes. The guarantees of victory and the obsession with the Patriots. Tomlin shrugged it all off as media creations. Never took ownership of his words or the fact that he doesn’t coach his players not to make statement of disrespect to opponents. All the Jags could talk about after that game was how the Steelers words and actions served as a rallying point of motivation for them. Tomlin blows it off. He gets directly asked about Mitchell stalking the Jags locker room before the game tainting them. Tomlin said it was no big deal. Bullshit like that reflects poorly on the organization, the owners, the fans, the team, the brand, and the head coach. Mike thinks it’s no big deal.

The second round of questions centered around the horrid 4th and short play calls. You have a QB who is 18 for 19in his career on sneaks, best in the NFL by a mile since 2004 and you haven’t run a single sneak in 3 full season? He said they are not opposed to it. Ben said he wants to run the ball. Tomlin lets it slip that there is fear of people diving into Pounceys legs and of Ben getting hurt. Lose playoff games over fear of injury on a sneak. Fear of Injury never led him to teach Ryan Clark or Mike Mitchell or Ryan Shazier how to tackle without launching their head and neck into somebody.

He was also asked to evaluate the offense and the defense and coaching. His answers lead me to believe that there will indeed be changes as he was non-committal to any of the coaches. He also hinted at a retirement by Richard Mann and was asked about Hines Ward possibly being his replacement which Tomlin had no response.

Lastly this was the first time I ever heard shakiness and Mike Tomlin‘s voice. The usual confidence he speaks with was gone and he sounded like a man under much pressure. With the pro football talk report that some owners want him fired you have to wonder if where there is smoke there is fire. 10 years with a Hall of Fame QB and no rings is a big big problem .


The overwhelming constant issue over the past 10 years is the absolute piece of shit defense under a head coach with a defensive background. Biggest problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:02 pm 
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Not sure where to put this but:

[url]One other thing that I thought deserved some discussion was Pittsburgh's onside kick down 42-35 with a two-minute warning and two timeouts left. GWC agreed with the decision by a very small margin, favoring the onside kick 4.2 percent to 3.8 percent for the kickoff. Certainly the circumstances of Pittsburgh's defense getting their ass kicked helped as well. I get it, but it's so hard to come back from 10 points down at that point in time I probably would've kicked it off regularly and hoped for the best.[/url]
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/any-given-sunday/2018/any-given-sunday-jaguars-over-steelers

Like I said, 50/50. You are in a position where you either have to trust the run defense that hadn't stopped the Jags all day or an onside kick unit that has been horrible.

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:08 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
. . . or an onside kick unit that has been horrible.
Did it look like that special teams unit practiced an onside kick? Who's fault was that?

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:13 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Not sure where to put this but:

[url]One other thing that I thought deserved some discussion was Pittsburgh's onside kick down 42-35 with a two-minute warning and two timeouts left. GWC agreed with the decision by a very small margin, favoring the onside kick 4.2 percent to 3.8 percent for the kickoff. Certainly the circumstances of Pittsburgh's defense getting their ass kicked helped as well. I get it, but it's so hard to come back from 10 points down at that point in time I probably would've kicked it off regularly and hoped for the best.[/url]
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/any-given-sunday/2018/any-given-sunday-jaguars-over-steelers

Like I said, 50/50. You are in a position where you either have to trust the run defense that hadn't stopped the Jags all day or an onside kick unit that has been horrible.


Two rebuttal points:

1) The Steelers were controlling the Jags' run game in the second half. They weren't being burned by the run...they were being burned by the play action passing of Bortles...which was likely not happening as the Jags would first try and bleed timeouts and the two minute warning. Maybe...maybe...they try a pass on third down if they're backed up in their own territory...but that pass play is coming on third down and likely expected.

2) The Steelers stopped Jacksonville on 40% of their third downs. Yes- they had no three and outs, but they had stopped the Jags on 40% of their third downs. That's at least three times the probability- probably more- of successfully recovering an onside kick when your opponents are expecting it.

Given this, you simply cannot put the Jags within striking distance of making it a two score game. You simply can't.

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:09 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
. . . or an onside kick unit that has been horrible.
Did it look like that special teams unit practiced an onside kick? Who's fault was that?

How do you know they didn't execute it perfectly in practice and the kicker just fucking choked? If he sees it in practice and it offers the team a slightly better chance to win a very low probability won game, I don't blame him for trying. The run defense was that bad, and even an unsuccessful onside kick normally executed doesn't put Jax in FG range.

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:12 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Not sure where to put this but:

[url]One other thing that I thought deserved some discussion was Pittsburgh's onside kick down 42-35 with a two-minute warning and two timeouts left. GWC agreed with the decision by a very small margin, favoring the onside kick 4.2 percent to 3.8 percent for the kickoff. Certainly the circumstances of Pittsburgh's defense getting their ass kicked helped as well. I get it, but it's so hard to come back from 10 points down at that point in time I probably would've kicked it off regularly and hoped for the best.[/url]
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/any-given-sunday/2018/any-given-sunday-jaguars-over-steelers

Like I said, 50/50. You are in a position where you either have to trust the run defense that hadn't stopped the Jags all day or an onside kick unit that has been horrible.


Two rebuttal points:

1) The Steelers were controlling the Jags' run game in the second half. They weren't being burned by the run...they were being burned by the play action passing of Bortles...which was likely not happening as the Jags would first try and bleed timeouts and the two minute warning. Maybe...maybe...they try a pass on third down if they're backed up in their own territory...but that pass play is coming on third down and likely expected.

2) The Steelers stopped Jacksonville on 40% of their third downs. Yes- they had no three and outs, but they had stopped the Jags on 40% of their third downs. That's at least three times the probability- probably more- of successfully recovering an onside kick when your opponents are expecting it.

Given this, you simply cannot put the Jags within striking distance of making it a two score game. You simply can't.

a properly executed onside attempt-- even if unsuccessful-- shouldn't put Jax in FG range. It was the failure to execute it in even a average manner, compounded by the penalty that put JAX in range.

Anyway, I'm just telling you what the COMPUTER ANALYSIS said. That thing doesn't care about Tomlin's gut or your assessment. The cold hard logic and numbers suggested an onside attempt was slightly better in that situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:18 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Not sure where to put this but:

[url]One other thing that I thought deserved some discussion was Pittsburgh's onside kick down 42-35 with a two-minute warning and two timeouts left. GWC agreed with the decision by a very small margin, favoring the onside kick 4.2 percent to 3.8 percent for the kickoff. Certainly the circumstances of Pittsburgh's defense getting their ass kicked helped as well. I get it, but it's so hard to come back from 10 points down at that point in time I probably would've kicked it off regularly and hoped for the best.[/url]
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/any-given-sunday/2018/any-given-sunday-jaguars-over-steelers

Like I said, 50/50. You are in a position where you either have to trust the run defense that hadn't stopped the Jags all day or an onside kick unit that has been horrible.


Two rebuttal points:

1) The Steelers were controlling the Jags' run game in the second half. They weren't being burned by the run...they were being burned by the play action passing of Bortles...which was likely not happening as the Jags would first try and bleed timeouts and the two minute warning. Maybe...maybe...they try a pass on third down if they're backed up in their own territory...but that pass play is coming on third down and likely expected.

2) The Steelers stopped Jacksonville on 40% of their third downs. Yes- they had no three and outs, but they had stopped the Jags on 40% of their third downs. That's at least three times the probability- probably more- of successfully recovering an onside kick when your opponents are expecting it.

Given this, you simply cannot put the Jags within striking distance of making it a two score game. You simply can't.

a properly executed onside attempt-- even if unsuccessful-- shouldn't put Jax in FG range. It was the failure to execute it in even a average manner, compounded by the penalty that put JAX in range.

Anyway, I'm just telling you what the COMPUTER ANALYSIS said. That thing doesn't care about Tomlin's gut or your assessment. The cold hard logic and numbers suggested an onside attempt was slightly better in that situation.


A properly executed onside kick gives Jacksonville the ball at the Steelers 45.

The nine yards they gained puts them at the 36 for a 54 yard FG attempt.

Lambo had the wind (BTW, think of the double failure of Mike Tomlin deferring. he put his weakest unit out to start the game AND somehow gave up the wind for the fourth quarter. How the hell did THAT happen?), and the FG he DID make would easily have been good from 54 yards out.

And another thing to factor in (which I bet the algorithm did NOT)...suppose everything played out the same way, and Jacksonville had a 4th and short 1 at the 36. if I'm them, I go for it. First down seals the game...failure gives the ball to the Steelers at or around the 36...better than if they attempt a FG and fail.

The point is the Steelers needed a three and out and they sacrificed field position to do so. For a less than 10% chance of recovering an onside kick.

Stupid!

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:21 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Anyway, I'm just telling you what the COMPUTER ANALYSIS said. That thing doesn't care about Tomlin's gut or your assessment. The cold hard logic and numbers suggested an onside attempt was slightly better in that situation.


I know plenty disagreed with the decision real-time. I also know this board would be even more outraged if they didn't onside when the defense failed to get the 3-and-out.

However small, it's one more chance you give yourself at winning the game. With all the other crap in that game, I just don't have the energy to get upset about an onside kick :lol:

Besides, if they somehow find a way to win that game they're figuring out how to lose to NE. Or the ultimate kick in the nuts would have been to ease into another SB. We're sitting here talking about what went wrong and what needs fixed....the talent is there, but the coaching is a LONG way from championship caliber.

And perhaps we might acknowledge Tomlin's early career consisted mainly of quipping cliches while Arians and Lebeau took a bunch of Cowher guys to 2 SB's and a ring. That is more and more clear with every season that passes .

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:43 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Not sure where to put this but:

[url]One other thing that I thought deserved some discussion was Pittsburgh's onside kick down 42-35 with a two-minute warning and two timeouts left. GWC agreed with the decision by a very small margin, favoring the onside kick 4.2 percent to 3.8 percent for the kickoff. Certainly the circumstances of Pittsburgh's defense getting their ass kicked helped as well. I get it, but it's so hard to come back from 10 points down at that point in time I probably would've kicked it off regularly and hoped for the best.[/url]
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/any-given-sunday/2018/any-given-sunday-jaguars-over-steelers

Like I said, 50/50. You are in a position where you either have to trust the run defense that hadn't stopped the Jags all day or an onside kick unit that has been horrible.


Take a gambler's chance on the bounce of an odd-shaped funny looking ball?


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:42 pm 
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my thoughts which mean jack are steelers should have kicked off deep. hopefully a touch back. I believe the jags woulda been nervous nellies and conservative to a fault not wanting a turnover in their own end. sure they gashed us early but I think feeling the pressure their assholes tighten and they run conservative shit. bortles was getting worse passing and I doubt they try anything daring. they would be content with putting it on defense to win it. kicking to steeler 30 or so and ben with a min and change with no timeouts. just to tie the game. who knows..
another thought; surely tomlin must know our special teams generally blow and look unprepared; I have zero faith in this area of game..


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:31 am 
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SP wrote:
What an embarrassment. A half hour of bullshit sound bites is nothing new, but his responses to direct questions were just awful.

The questions started out centered around all of the talk by him and his team. The Dungy interview. Mitchell and Bells quotes. The guarantees of victory and the obsession with the Patriots. Tomlin shrugged it all off as media creations. Never took ownership of his words or the fact that he doesn’t coach his players not to make statement of disrespect to opponents. All the Jags could talk about after that game was how the Steelers words and actions served as a rallying point of motivation for them. Tomlin blows it off. He gets directly asked about Mitchell stalking the Jags locker room before the game tainting them. Tomlin said it was no big deal. Bullshit like that reflects poorly on the organization, the owners, the fans, the team, the brand, and the head coach. Mike thinks it’s no big deal.

The second round of questions centered around the horrid 4th and short play calls. You have a QB who is 18 for 19in his career on sneaks, best in the NFL by a mile since 2004 and you haven’t run a single sneak in 3 full season? He said they are not opposed to it. Ben said he wants to run the ball. Tomlin lets it slip that there is fear of people diving into Pounceys legs and of Ben getting hurt. Lose playoff games over fear of injury on a sneak. Fear of Injury never led him to teach Ryan Clark or Mike Mitchell or Ryan Shazier how to tackle without launching their head and neck into somebody.

He was also asked to evaluate the offense and the defense and coaching. His answers lead me to believe that there will indeed be changes as he was non-committal to any of the coaches. He also hinted at a retirement by Richard Mann and was asked about Hines Ward possibly being his replacement which Tomlin had no response.

Lastly this was the first time I ever heard shakiness and Mike Tomlin‘s voice. The usual confidence he speaks with was gone and he sounded like a man under much pressure. With the pro football talk report that some owners want him fired you have to wonder if where there is smoke there is fire. 10 years with a Hall of Fame QB and no rings is a big big problem .


Just listened to all 21:37 of the presser. Sure would be nice to have a coach that's less full of shit than this guy.

Couple things I didn't hear though. I didn't hear the shakiness in Tomlin's voice. And...I was waiting for it, but I heard no reference to the bolded above, the biz about Tomlin fearing injury to Ben or Pouncey. Did I miss something?


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:31 am 
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How do we turn up the fire on this fucking bug eyed fraud

Just look at what Marrone took over in one year after the former Jax coach just didn’t know what he was doing either with his dearth of talent

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:12 am 
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Poltargyst wrote:
"Tomlin contributes nothing to the team" stuff is ridiculous.


If you are perfectly happy with regular season success and couldn't care less about what happens in the postseason, then Tomlin's your man.

As one of Tomlin's biggest critics on this board, I will not lose my shit if he is the HC, but if no changes are made with his coordinators, then I will.

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:29 am 
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BethlehemSteel wrote:
How do we turn up the fire on this fucking bug eyed fraud

Just look at what Marrone took over in one year after the former Jax coach just didn’t know what he was doing either with his dearth of talent


The difference between Jacksonville and Pittsburgh is the burning platform. Jax was a complete friggin' mess...they had to do something.

Like we liked to say at stillers.com..."The good is the enemy of the great".

Tomlin has built his own team and has gone from 8-8 to 13-3 and four straight years in the playoffs. Objectively, that's good.

But merely good shouldn't be acceptable enough for Mike Tomlin. Obviously, it is...and that needs to change.

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:31 am 
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Obviously wrote:
Poltargyst wrote:
"Tomlin contributes nothing to the team" stuff is ridiculous.


If you are perfectly happy with regular season success and couldn't care less about what happens in the postseason, then Tomlin's your man.

As one of Tomlin's biggest critics on this board, I will not lose my shit if he is the HC, but if no changes are made with his coordinators, then I will.


What Polt is saying is that while Tomlin obviously has his faults, you go off the deep end into hyperbole when you say he does absolutely nothing.

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