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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:34 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
Orangesteel wrote:
Anyone want to defend Tomlin not calling a TO before the 2 min warning wasting 6-7 seconds before the stoppage?


Someone gave a somewhat plausible defense that if they call the two timeouts very quickly, it leaves Jacksonville with a run/pass option on third down, and that the Steelers were trying to force Jax to run three times.


I thought we couldn’t stop Jax, which is why we tried the OS kick?

the bet for kicking away is the jags will turtle and play not to lose and not really try hard for the first down to get a first..and count on their glorious defense to hold on to win. I think that was more likely then us getting a special teams win with on side kicking play.


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:37 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
Orangesteel wrote:
Anyone want to defend Tomlin not calling a TO before the 2 min warning wasting 6-7 seconds before the stoppage?


Someone gave a somewhat plausible defense that if they call the two timeouts very quickly, it leaves Jacksonville with a run/pass option on third down, and that the Steelers were trying to force Jax to run three times.


Not buying it....one option would be call timeout on 1st down, let clock run to 2 minutes on 2nd, Jax then has to choose between running, force Steelers to use final timeout (they only had two left) or throw, perhaps incomplete, leaving Steelers still with a timeout.

Only time it forces the issue is the team on defense has no timeouts left once clock reaches two minutes, then offense must decide between throwing for a first down, or running and bleeding the clock.


If the Steelers call their two timeouts quickly, the clock is likely stopped BEFORE the two minute warning.

Therefore Jacksonville can either run or pass on third down without consequence if the pass is incomplete since the clock is stopping again anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:41 pm 
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And what if the onside succeeded and we went down to score a TD to tie game?

We couldn’t have used too much clock given that Jville had essentially 4 time outs at their disposal.

Sooooo was Captain Cliche going to onside again? Or would it have been ok to kick it deep then?

As I’ve said, our defense was goin to have to step on the field and prevent a drive one way or the other.

Failing the onside increased the opponents chance of success. That wasn’t factored.

I wouldn’t trust a Tomlin to change the oil in my car at this point. He’d likely leave it bone dry because one time he read about a car catching on fire.


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:49 pm 
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955876 wrote:
And what if the onside succeeded and we went down to score a TD to tie game?

We couldn’t have used too much clock given that Jville had essentially 4 time outs at their disposal.

Sooooo was Captain Cliche going to onside again? Or would it have been ok to kick it deep then?

As I’ve said, our defense was goin to have to step on the field and prevent a drive one way or the other.

Failing the onside increased the opponents chance of success. That wasn’t factored.

I wouldn’t trust a Tomlin to change the oil in my car at this point. He’d likely leave it bone dry because one time he read about a car catching on fire.


Ha.


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:52 pm 
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955876 wrote:
And what if the onside succeeded and we went down to score a TD to tie game?

We couldn’t have used too much clock given that Jville had essentially 4 time outs at their disposal.

Sooooo was Captain Cliche going to onside again? Or would it have been ok to kick it deep then?

As I’ve said, our defense was goin to have to step on the field and prevent a drive one way or the other.

Failing the onside increased the opponents chance of success. That wasn’t factored.

I wouldn’t trust a Tomlin to change the oil in my car at this point. He’d likely leave it bone dry because one time he read about a car catching on fire.


One thing Mike Tomlin has always had is a completely fucked up understanding of risk.

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:52 pm 
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"bam morris"]
Orangesteel wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
Orangesteel wrote:
Anyone want to defend Tomlin not calling a TO before the 2 min warning wasting 6-7 seconds before the stoppage?


Someone gave a somewhat plausible defense that if they call the two timeouts very quickly, it leaves Jacksonville with a run/pass option on third down, and that the Steelers were trying to force Jax to run three times.


I thought we couldn’t stop Jax, which is why we tried the OS kick?

the bet for kicking away is the jags will turtle and play not to lose and not really try hard for the first down to get a first..and count on their glorious defense to hold on to win. I think that was more likely then us getting a special teams win with on side kicking play.[/quote]



That was my line of thinking

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:02 pm 
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2:19 was on clock. We had two TOs.

So if they run on 1st & 2nd down we stop clock short of 2 minute warning. Clock stops again after third down with 2 minute warning. They punt away and we then have time for one drive.

Failing an onsides means they have a short field to get a FG. Which they did and made it a two score game.

We needed to pitch a 3 & out either way.

One way left them in FG range. The other wouldn’t have.

We lose either way if they convert 1st down.


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:05 pm 
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955876 wrote:
2:19 was on clock. We had two TOs.

So if they run on 1st & 2nd down we stop clock short of 2 minute warning. Clock stops again after third down with 2 minute warning. They punt away and we then have time for one drive.

Failing an onsides means they have a short field to get a FG. Which they did and made it a two score game.

We needed to pitch a 3 & out either way.

One way left them in FG range. The other wouldn’t have.

We lose either way if they convert 1st down.


Exactly. The minuscule chance of a successful onside kick at that point was far outweighed by the massive downside of giving the Jags field position sufficient for an easy FG. Chances were that the onside kick would fail and the defense would have to make a stop either way- why give the Jags the great field position? Tomlin's decision to go for an onside kick in that situation was a terrible mistake. Even Dan Fouts could see how stupid it was.


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:07 pm 
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W&M_Steeler wrote:
Exactly. The minuscule chance of a successful onside kick at that point was far outweighed by the massive downside of giving the Jags field position sufficient for an easy FG.


To be fair, you can't really criticize Tomlin for living in his fears....and then criticize an onside kick because he should have been afraid of a shitty kick that only went 5 yards AND yielded an illegal touching penalty.

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:12 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
W&M_Steeler wrote:
Exactly. The minuscule chance of a successful onside kick at that point was far outweighed by the massive downside of giving the Jags field position sufficient for an easy FG.


To be fair, you can't really criticize Tomlin for living in his fears....and then criticize an onside kick because he should have been afraid of a shitty kick that only went 5 yards AND yielded an illegal touching penalty.


I'm criticizing him for deciding to go for an onside kick at all in that situation. It was a panic move that wasn't warranted. With the time outs and the 2 minute warning, there was plenty of time to kick away. The fact that the execution of the onside kick was pathetic adds the cherry to the shit sundae of a decision.


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:17 pm 
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W&M_Steeler wrote:
955876 wrote:
2:19 was on clock. We had two TOs.

So if they run on 1st & 2nd down we stop clock short of 2 minute warning. Clock stops again after third down with 2 minute warning. They punt away and we then have time for one drive.

Failing an onsides means they have a short field to get a FG. Which they did and made it a two score game.

We needed to pitch a 3 & out either way.

One way left them in FG range. The other wouldn’t have.

We lose either way if they convert 1st down.


Exactly. The minuscule chance of a successful onside kick at that point was far outweighed by the massive downside of giving the Jags field position sufficient for an easy FG. Chances were that the onside kick would fail and the defense would have to make a stop either way- why give the Jags the great field position? Tomlin's decision to go for an onside kick in that situation was a terrible mistake. Even Dan Fouts could see how stupid it was.


Yep.


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:24 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
W&M_Steeler wrote:
Exactly. The minuscule chance of a successful onside kick at that point was far outweighed by the massive downside of giving the Jags field position sufficient for an easy FG.


To be fair, you can't really criticize Tomlin for living in his fears....and then criticize an onside kick because he should have been afraid of a shitty kick that only went 5 yards AND yielded an illegal touching penalty.

Not to throw off the thread, but why is that, or should that be a penalty? If the kicking team touches the football before it goes 10 yards, it should be downed at that point...like a punt. No advantage to the kick team by touching the ball early...penalizing themselves by negating the chance to recover. A penalty on top of that seems like overkill. Just another inexplicable, unneeded NFL rule, IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:42 pm 
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955876 wrote:
2:19 was on clock. We had two TOs.

So if they run on 1st & 2nd down we stop clock short of 2 minute warning. Clock stops again after third down with 2 minute warning. They punt away and we then have time for one drive.

Failing an onsides means they have a short field to get a FG. Which they did and made it a two score game.

We needed to pitch a 3 & out either way.

One way left them in FG range. The other wouldn’t have.

We lose either way if they convert 1st down.

and if somehow steelers hit a guy hard enough to fumble where would u rather recover the turnover ? at their 20 or your own 45? Tomlins a chicken shit.


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:47 pm 
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W&M_Steeler wrote:
I'm criticizing him for deciding to go for an onside kick at all in that situation. It was a panic move that wasn't warranted. With the time outs and the 2 minute warning, there was plenty of time to kick away. The fact that the execution of the onside kick was pathetic adds the cherry to the shit sundae of a decision.


I've always felt it's one more chance, however slim, you give yourself to win.

If you don't recover, then you always needed 3 and out any way. It then just becomes a debate over where you think you'd get the ball back and how much time you have.

And I might even argue odds are your get BETTER field position....You KO, you stop them and they punt to your shitty return unit and you get the ball at your 25. Otherwise, they miss a FG and you're in business at the 40+. They punt and you get a TB at the 20. Or they pin you 10-15 yards deeper which, in the grand scheme of things, doesn't matter.


The armchair QBing is fun....but had they done a normal KO and the defense didn't get the 3-and-out Tomlin would have been justifiably CRUCIFIED for not onside kicking when you haven't gotten A SINGLE 3-and-out ALL GAME.

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:48 pm 
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bam morris wrote:
and if somehow steelers hit a guy hard enough to fumble where would u rather recover the turnover ? at their 20 or your own 45? Tomlins a chicken shit.


Your defense has barely had a stop, much less a 3-and-out all day, and Tomlin is an idiot chicken shit for not trusting his 'D?

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:56 pm 
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955876 wrote:
And what if the onside succeeded and we went down to score a TD to tie game?

We couldn’t have used too much clock given that Jville had essentially 4 time outs at their disposal.

Sooooo was Captain Cliche going to onside again? Or would it have been ok to kick it deep then?

As I’ve said, our defense was goin to have to step on the field and prevent a drive one way or the other.

Failing the onside increased the opponents chance of success. That wasn’t factored.

I wouldn’t trust a Tomlin to change the oil in my car at this point. He’d likely leave it bone dry because one time he read about a car catching on fire.


I forget all of the details, but that's sort of what he did against Green Bay in '09, going onsides while ahead, afraid his defense couldn't stop the Packers. Steelers won; I thought it was a dumbfuck move, as Pack could have won with no time remaining had they played their cards right. We had a good debate about it on this site.

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:57 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
W&M_Steeler wrote:
I'm criticizing him for deciding to go for an onside kick at all in that situation. It was a panic move that wasn't warranted. With the time outs and the 2 minute warning, there was plenty of time to kick away. The fact that the execution of the onside kick was pathetic adds the cherry to the shit sundae of a decision.


I've always felt it's one more chance, however slim, you give yourself to win.

If you don't recover, then you always needed 3 and out any way. It then just becomes a debate over where you think you'd get the ball back and how much time you have.

And I might even argue odds are your get BETTER field position....You KO, you stop them and they punt to your shitty return unit and you get the ball at your 25. Otherwise, they miss a FG and you're in business at the 40+. They punt and you get a TB at the 20. Or they pin you 10-15 yards deeper which, in the grand scheme of things, doesn't matter.


The armchair QBing is fun....but had they done a normal KO and the defense didn't get the 3-and-out Tomlin would have been justifiably CRUCIFIED for not onside kicking when you haven't gotten A SINGLE 3-and-out ALL GAME.


He might have been crucified, but NOT justifiably. His decision would have been emphatically supported by the percentages.

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:59 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
Kodiak wrote:
W&M_Steeler wrote:
I'm criticizing him for deciding to go for an onside kick at all in that situation. It was a panic move that wasn't warranted. With the time outs and the 2 minute warning, there was plenty of time to kick away. The fact that the execution of the onside kick was pathetic adds the cherry to the shit sundae of a decision.


I've always felt it's one more chance, however slim, you give yourself to win.

If you don't recover, then you always needed 3 and out any way. It then just becomes a debate over where you think you'd get the ball back and how much time you have.

And I might even argue odds are your get BETTER field position....You KO, you stop them and they punt to your shitty return unit and you get the ball at your 25. Otherwise, they miss a FG and you're in business at the 40+. They punt and you get a TB at the 20. Or they pin you 10-15 yards deeper which, in the grand scheme of things, doesn't matter.

.
The armchair QBing is fun....but had they done a normal KO and the defense didn't get the 3-and-out Tomlin would have been justifiably CRUCIFIED for not onside kicking when you haven't gotten A SINGLE 3-and-out ALL GAME.


He might have been crucified, but NOT justifiably. His decision would have been emphatically supported by the percentages.





Thank you Swiss, exactly correct

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Last edited by GreekSteel on Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:00 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
Kodiak wrote:
W&M_Steeler wrote:
I'm criticizing him for deciding to go for an onside kick at all in that situation. It was a panic move that wasn't warranted. With the time outs and the 2 minute warning, there was plenty of time to kick away. The fact that the execution of the onside kick was pathetic adds the cherry to the shit sundae of a decision.


I've always felt it's one more chance, however slim, you give yourself to win.

If you don't recover, then you always needed 3 and out any way. It then just becomes a debate over where you think you'd get the ball back and how much time you have.

And I might even argue odds are your get BETTER field position....You KO, you stop them and they punt to your shitty return unit and you get the ball at your 25. Otherwise, they miss a FG and you're in business at the 40+. They punt and you get a TB at the 20. Or they pin you 10-15 yards deeper which, in the grand scheme of things, doesn't matter.


The armchair QBing is fun....but had they done a normal KO and the defense didn't get the 3-and-out Tomlin would have been justifiably CRUCIFIED for not onside kicking when you haven't gotten A SINGLE 3-and-out ALL GAME.


He might have been crucified, but NOT justifiably. His decision would have been emphatically supported by the percentages.



Thank you Swiss, exactly right.

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:02 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
955876 wrote:
And what if the onside succeeded and we went down to score a TD to tie game?

We couldn’t have used too much clock given that Jville had essentially 4 time outs at their disposal.

Sooooo was Captain Cliche going to onside again? Or would it have been ok to kick it deep then?

As I’ve said, our defense was goin to have to step on the field and prevent a drive one way or the other.

Failing the onside increased the opponents chance of success. That wasn’t factored.

I wouldn’t trust a Tomlin to change the oil in my car at this point. He’d likely leave it bone dry because one time he read about a car catching on fire.


I forget all of the details, but that's sort of what he did against Green Bay in '09, going onsides while ahead, afraid his defense couldn't stop the Packers. Steelers won; I thought it was a dumbfuck move, as Pack could have won with no time remaining had they played their cards right. We had a good debate about it on this site.




I remember that as well, i was also against it, but the defense of Tomlin was deafening, Steelers won in spite of his dumbfuck move not becasue of it. It was also noted that this sort of gut call/stupid decision will bite him in the ass more often than not.

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:29 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
W&M_Steeler wrote:
I'm criticizing him for deciding to go for an onside kick at all in that situation. It was a panic move that wasn't warranted. With the time outs and the 2 minute warning, there was plenty of time to kick away. The fact that the execution of the onside kick was pathetic adds the cherry to the shit sundae of a decision.


I've always felt it's one more chance, however slim, you give yourself to win.

If you don't recover, then you always needed 3 and out any way. It then just becomes a debate over where you think you'd get the ball back and how much time you have.

And I might even argue odds are your get BETTER field position....You KO, you stop them and they punt to your shitty return unit and you get the ball at your 25. Otherwise, they miss a FG and you're in business at the 40+. They punt and you get a TB at the 20. Or they pin you 10-15 yards deeper which, in the grand scheme of things, doesn't matter.

The armchair QBing is fun....but had they done a normal KO and the defense didn't get the 3-and-out Tomlin would have been justifiably CRUCIFIED for not onside kicking when you haven't gotten A SINGLE 3-and-out ALL GAME.


Maybe some people would have been crucifying him for kicking deep, but I wouldn't have been one of them. I was screaming "kick it deep" at the time. Even though the defense was terrible all day, I thought it was much more likely that the D would get a stop than it would be for the ST to successfully execute an expected onsides kick. I disagree about the field position argument- chances are that the Steelers would have had better field position if they could get a stop after kicking deep than if they had a 3 and out after an unsuccessful, but unpenalized, onsides attempt. The Jags might have attempted a 4th and short if they had the ball on the Steelers side of the field but didn't want to try a 50+ yard field goal, whereas they probably would not have if they were deep in their own territory. Sure, the penalty made a bad decision even worse, but I don't see an argument for the onsides even assuming no penalty.


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:33 pm 
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In Door
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Out Door
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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:51 pm 
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https://youtu.be/AaDPBeT4eQE
Hmmmm...


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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:54 pm 
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Stink (Mark S is right, very telling)-he really skewers Asslin

Asslin will be gone within the week, Book it

Bravo, Ben is right, the minor owners are right, We are a team of whiney asslin punks.

We can't win with Mike and these cancers.

It's Ben's team!!

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 Post subject: Re: Tomlin end of season presser
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:02 pm 
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Peter King on Herd
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMTIQ4DF2ZA

Bradshaw on sunday and thoughts on the era difference (Props to Ben - says Ben is far from done, too good) first 6 min segment, tomlin segment in min 7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1e23urXqP8

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