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 Post subject: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:11 pm 
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If we tried to rebuild this 3-4

LDE - Tuitt, Alualu
DT - Hargrave, OPEN
RDE - Heyward, Walton
ROLB - Watt, Chickillo, OPEN
MLB - Williams, OPEN, OPEN
MLB - Matakevich, Fort
LOLB - Dupree, OPEN

That is 4-55 open slots (considering they often keep 15/16 in the front 7, and you really get no chance to add anyone to set the edge or provide any edge pressure. Dupree really can't be relied upon for that, but his career could be salvaged as a 4-3 SAM linebacker. He could play downhill and get out of situations where he needs to set the edge. He is good enough in coverage to where he could actually do well here.

Likewise Watt has shown he could be a great WILL with his ability to get depth in his zone drops, use his length, and superb man to man skills (Jordy Nelson).

I think that we can compensate for losing Shaz by taking BOTH edge players off the line of scrimmage. They have already been showing looks with it anyway.

In PLACE of those edge players, we just shift our set down to a 4-3 look and use those 5 openings more creatively.

strong side DE - Tuitt, OPEN
1Tech - Hargrave, Alualu, OPEN
3Tech - Heyward, Walton
weak side DE - OPEN, OPEN
WILL - Watt, OPEN
MIKE - Williams, Matakevich
SAM - Dupree, Fort

If we make this switch, Williams only needs to be a 2 down player. he can just be a tackle to tackle run defender. Dupree gets off the edge for the most part and is just purely covering or blitzing downhill. No more edge setting. Watt is also getting to use that length and football IQ to take away the middle of the field.

Meanwhile, Tuitt can use his great athleticism to play more of a 6 or 7 tech instead of a 5 tech (as he often did in college), and he can cave in the pocket from the left side.

NOW we only need to bring in ONE STARTER in the front 7, and we just go big and get the best pure pass rusher we can in free agency and we also draft one in the first 3 rounds. Go big and get Ziggy Ansah or Demarcus Lawrence and draft Sam Hubbard in the 2nd round. For depth, we get our hands on another strong side and weakside DE in free agency (Daquan Jones), solid veteran wave guys, and another space eater NT.

Then to deepen the LB stable, we grab a good LB/Safety hybrid like a Kyzir White (4th round).

Now we have the true personnel for a killer Tampa 2. Transformation complete.

This scenario also allows us to draft Ronnie Harrison out of Alabama at 28 and cut Mike Mitchell, and we can use the 3rd round pick to nab Bell's replacement.

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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:53 pm 
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I've been in favor of a move to 4-3 since Scrunge has been proposing it. I'm still wondering if it could have been done this past season after Shaz went down.


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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:11 pm 
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Great plan MJB...... I wonder if these assholes are even considering any of these options for the defense.


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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:33 pm 
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No sarcasm intended, If it's that easy why haven't they done it?


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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:44 pm 
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People on this forum just aren't buying unfortunately. They are sold on the Dick LeBeau 3-4 defense, think it is just fine, love the flexibility that it gives you, blah, blah, blah.

Oh, it is flexible all right, it gives opposing teams so much flexibility in destroying your defense. That dagger to the heart in Sunday's game, the long 45 yard pass play to Keenan Cole, burning Artie Burns, was another one of those old, reliable LeBeau weaknesses of a 3-4 defense. That play has killed us so many times over the years and the Jags dialed it up when they needed it to get the 14 point lead again.

I hear so many excuses of why we can't switch to a 4-3, and they are all lame and feeble. It is possible to find 3 and even 4 players in a given year.

In 2016 we got Burns, Davis and Hargrave.

In 2017 we got Watt, Sutton and Allen in the draft and Hilton, Haden and Alualu as free agents.
This past year we added 6 players through the draft and free agency. This team moved on from Harrison, is about ready to cut Willie Gay. Art Moats will not be brought back, Mike Mitchell and JJ Wilcox will give this team over $8 million in cap savings and should both be cut as well.

This team, finally, is rid of any players with deep ties to LeBeau, there are no vets left. It is a blank slate, the switch to a 4-3 won't get any better than right now.

I honestly believe that we could draft 3 players and pursue two more Alualu type of free agents and make the switch. I also agree with some of your assertions that they were starting to go in the 4-3 direction. Using Heyward as your primary pass rusher, as the focal point of your pass rush, dropping your OLBs into coverage more than ever before, not blitzing as much, starting to explore man to man concepts when Haden was healthy and playing.

All of that sure looked like they were trending towards a 4-3 to me. The thing for me is that they have a young team now, and trying to maintain this 3-4 base, the old 3-4 Dick LeBeau AND also do these new 4-3 looks is just counterproductive, it is just confusing. Better to just move on to the 4-3 full-time as the base defense and simplify things for everybody.

My signature shows you what I think of Watt, I think he could be the MLB, say he is our Brian Urlacher now in the middle of the field. Unlike Williams, he truly has the speed to go sideline to sideline and he also is just naturally gifted in pass coverage. Yeah, if you keep Bud Dupree at OLB he could be like Anthony Barr in Minnesota who plays their Sam linebacker. If you went that route you only need to find a weak side 'Will' outside linebacker, a Telvin Smith type, smaller, faster, usually a former safety in college. Every draft has these players, we could find one in round 2 or 3 this season, Telvin Smith was drafted by Jacksonville in round 5.

Yeah, I want to see Heyward and Hargrave play next to each other inside as the starting DTs and for both to play about 75% of the snaps with that 3rd DT coming in and spelling them and playing 50% of the snaps. I think you could see 25-30 sacks produced just from that trio inside. Tuitt has great size and length to really cause problems if you move him around at DE and line him up wide at times. I saw them do some of that this season but injuries really derailed some plans I think that they had in store for him.

I think we are so close, they just need to pull the trigger and make it happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:06 pm 
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is it possible to happen with Butler as DC? Can he even coach the 4-3?

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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:08 pm 
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One thing you 4-3 circle jerkers are misinterpreting in your fantasy. Our edge/olb's would become the de's in any version of a 4-3 today. We would not have 4 300lb'ers lined up on the los. The mighty Chickillo, Dupree, and Watt power would be the DE's, with Tuitt, Heyward and Hargrave rotating at dt, almost exactly like they all do now with nickel and dime.


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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:44 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
My signature shows you what I think of Watt, I think he could be the MLB, say he is our Brian Urlacher now in the middle of the field. Unlike Williams, he truly has the speed to go sideline to sideline and he also is just naturally gifted in pass coverage. Yeah, if you keep Bud Dupree at OLB he could be like Anthony Barr in Minnesota who plays their Sam linebacker. If you went that route you only need to find a weak side 'Will' outside linebacker, a Telvin Smith type, smaller, faster, usually a former safety in college. Every draft has these players, we could find one in round 2 or 3 this season, Telvin Smith was drafted by Jacksonville in round 5.

James Onwualu? Brooks Ellis? Richie Brown? Alex McCalister?


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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:55 pm 
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Lynch wrote:
One thing you 4-3 circle jerkers are misinterpreting in your fantasy. Our edge/olb's would become the de's in any version of a 4-3 today. We would not have 4 300lb'ers lined up on the los. The mighty Chickillo, Dupree, and Watt power would be the DE's, with Tuitt, Heyward and Hargrave rotating at dt, almost exactly like they all do now with nickel and dime.

Scunge has an answer for this. Get 'em, Scunge!


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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:54 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
People on this forum just aren't buying unfortunately. They are sold on the Dick LeBeau 3-4 defense, think it is just fine, love the flexibility that it gives you, blah, blah, blah.

Oh, it is flexible all right, it gives opposing teams so much flexibility in destroying your defense. That dagger to the heart in Sunday's game, the long 45 yard pass play to Keenan Cole, burning Artie Burns, was another one of those old, reliable LeBeau weaknesses of a 3-4 defense. That play has killed us so many times over the years and the Jags dialed it up when they needed it to get the 14 point lead again.

I hear so many excuses of why we can't switch to a 4-3, and they are all lame and feeble. It is possible to find 3 and even 4 players in a given year.

In 2016 we got Burns, Davis and Hargrave.

In 2017 we got Watt, Sutton and Allen in the draft and Hilton, Haden and Alualu as free agents.
This past year we added 6 players through the draft and free agency. This team moved on from Harrison, is about ready to cut Willie Gay. Art Moats will not be brought back, Mike Mitchell and JJ Wilcox will give this team over $8 million in cap savings and should both be cut as well.

This team, finally, is rid of any players with deep ties to LeBeau, there are no vets left. It is a blank slate, the switch to a 4-3 won't get any better than right now.

I honestly believe that we could draft 3 players and pursue two more Alualu type of free agents and make the switch. I also agree with some of your assertions that they were starting to go in the 4-3 direction. Using Heyward as your primary pass rusher, as the focal point of your pass rush, dropping your OLBs into coverage more than ever before, not blitzing as much, starting to explore man to man concepts when Haden was healthy and playing.

All of that sure looked like they were trending towards a 4-3 to me. The thing for me is that they have a young team now, and trying to maintain this 3-4 base, the old 3-4 Dick LeBeau AND also do these new 4-3 looks is just counterproductive, it is just confusing. Better to just move on to the 4-3 full-time as the base defense and simplify things for everybody.

My signature shows you what I think of Watt, I think he could be the MLB, say he is our Brian Urlacher now in the middle of the field. Unlike Williams, he truly has the speed to go sideline to sideline and he also is just naturally gifted in pass coverage. Yeah, if you keep Bud Dupree at OLB he could be like Anthony Barr in Minnesota who plays their Sam linebacker. If you went that route you only need to find a weak side 'Will' outside linebacker, a Telvin Smith type, smaller, faster, usually a former safety in college. Every draft has these players, we could find one in round 2 or 3 this season, Telvin Smith was drafted by Jacksonville in round 5.

Yeah, I want to see Heyward and Hargrave play next to each other inside as the starting DTs and for both to play about 75% of the snaps with that 3rd DT coming in and spelling them and playing 50% of the snaps. I think you could see 25-30 sacks produced just from that trio inside. Tuitt has great size and length to really cause problems if you move him around at DE and line him up wide at times. I saw them do some of that this season but injuries really derailed some plans I think that they had in store for him.

I think we are so close, they just need to pull the trigger and make it happen.


I agree but also think Watt could play the Will linebacker anyway. Either way the whole thing does still rest on nabbing not one, but two real edge rushers to rotate with each other.

Ansah in FA and Hubbard IN THE 2nd could change this defense big time.

Then grab Daquan Jones for cheap in FA to back up Tuitt. Then draft a haystack 340lber in the 5th to assumre NT depth.

Ronnie Harrison in the 1st solidifies the safety position, and a 3rd rounder on a RB and 4th round a backup safety/LB type player.

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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:00 am 
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Poltargyst wrote:
I've been in favor of a move to 4-3 since Scrunge has been proposing it. I'm still wondering if it could have been done this past season after Shaz went down.




We've been discussing it here and hoping for it for awhile. I think its way overdue to get back to the 4-3.


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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:15 am 
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I'm all for going to the 4-3... as soon as you tell me how switching solves the fact that we don't like our edge players. IMO, if you switch to 4-3 it makes our edge players look even more lacking.

I think a 4-3 Weakside DE is really hard to find. I can't see Watt holding up to that job. Maybe Dupree fits there but that's like starting over with him.

Honestly, move Watt to ILB, Dupree to LOLB, continue to play a lot of packages and 4-3 looks vs certain personnel and this D isn't that far away.

I think they could use another EDGE, preferably a stout vs run defender who is suited to play ROLB. I think they should have stuck with that interest in a situational pass rusher, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:42 am 
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Scunge wrote:
People on this forum just aren't buying unfortunately. They are sold on the Dick LeBeau 3-4 defense, think it is just fine, love the flexibility that it gives you, blah, blah, blah.

Oh, it is flexible all right, it gives opposing teams so much flexibility in destroying your defense. That dagger to the heart in Sunday's game, the long 45 yard pass play to Keenan Cole, burning Artie Burns, was another one of those old, reliable LeBeau weaknesses of a 3-4 defense. That play has killed us so many times over the years and the Jags dialed it up when they needed it to get the 14 point lead again.

I hear so many excuses of why we can't switch to a 4-3, and they are all lame and feeble. It is possible to find 3 and even 4 players in a given year.

In 2016 we got Burns, Davis and Hargrave.

In 2017 we got Watt, Sutton and Allen in the draft and Hilton, Haden and Alualu as free agents.
This past year we added 6 players through the draft and free agency. This team moved on from Harrison, is about ready to cut Willie Gay. Art Moats will not be brought back, Mike Mitchell and JJ Wilcox will give this team over $8 million in cap savings and should both be cut as well.

This team, finally, is rid of any players with deep ties to LeBeau, there are no vets left. It is a blank slate, the switch to a 4-3 won't get any better than right now.

I honestly believe that we could draft 3 players and pursue two more Alualu type of free agents and make the switch. I also agree with some of your assertions that they were starting to go in the 4-3 direction. Using Heyward as your primary pass rusher, as the focal point of your pass rush, dropping your OLBs into coverage more than ever before, not blitzing as much, starting to explore man to man concepts when Haden was healthy and playing.

All of that sure looked like they were trending towards a 4-3 to me. The thing for me is that they have a young team now, and trying to maintain this 3-4 base, the old 3-4 Dick LeBeau AND also do these new 4-3 looks is just counterproductive, it is just confusing. Better to just move on to the 4-3 full-time as the base defense and simplify things for everybody.

My signature shows you what I think of Watt, I think he could be the MLB, say he is our Brian Urlacher now in the middle of the field. Unlike Williams, he truly has the speed to go sideline to sideline and he also is just naturally gifted in pass coverage. Yeah, if you keep Bud Dupree at OLB he could be like Anthony Barr in Minnesota who plays their Sam linebacker. If you went that route you only need to find a weak side 'Will' outside linebacker, a Telvin Smith type, smaller, faster, usually a former safety in college. Every draft has these players, we could find one in round 2 or 3 this season, Telvin Smith was drafted by Jacksonville in round 5.

Yeah, I want to see Heyward and Hargrave play next to each other inside as the starting DTs and for both to play about 75% of the snaps with that 3rd DT coming in and spelling them and playing 50% of the snaps. I think you could see 25-30 sacks produced just from that trio inside. Tuitt has great size and length to really cause problems if you move him around at DE and line him up wide at times. I saw them do some of that this season but injuries really derailed some plans I think that they had in store for him.

I think we are so close, they just need to pull the trigger and make it happen.

I'm on board with u all the way..been saying this since dick was ushered out.. watching games now the teams I see looking good on defense and pressure always seem to be in 4-3 for sometime now. nfl evolves and the 3-4 is old and stale as the 4-3 was prior. time is now.. why I wanted butler gone. new coaches and new scheme..


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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:57 am 
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Use the money you would save by letting Bell walk and sign Demarcus Lawrence...15 million is better served on a guy that can get to the QB consistantly.


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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:03 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
I'm all for going to the 4-3... as soon as you tell me how switching solves the fact that we don't like our edge players. IMO, if you switch to 4-3 it makes our edge players look even more lacking.

I think a 4-3 Weakside DE is really hard to find. I can't see Watt holding up to that job. Maybe Dupree fits there but that's like starting over with him.

Honestly, move Watt to ILB, Dupree to LOLB, continue to play a lot of packages and 4-3 looks vs certain personnel and this D isn't that far away.

I think they could use another EDGE, preferably a stout vs run defender who is suited to play LOLB. I think they should have stuck with that interest in a situational pass rusher, too.


Simple, moving to a 4-3 allows us to reassign those edge players and bring in REAL ones. This way we only need to worry about one front 7 position instead of 2 or 3.

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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:35 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
I'm all for going to the 4-3... as soon as you tell me how switching solves the fact that we don't like our edge players. IMO, if you switch to 4-3 it makes our edge players look even more lacking.

I think a 4-3 Weakside DE is really hard to find. I can't see Watt holding up to that job. Maybe Dupree fits there but that's like starting over with him.

Honestly, move Watt to ILB, Dupree to LOLB, continue to play a lot of packages and 4-3 looks vs certain personnel and this D isn't that far away.

I think they could use another EDGE, preferably a stout vs run defender who is suited to play LOLB. I think they should have stuck with that interest in a situational pass rusher, too.


I would rather them move to a hybrid defense with 2 DTs that play 2 gap in the middle and two outside players. They can be OLB or DE.

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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:26 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
I'm all for going to the 4-3... as soon as you tell me how switching solves the fact that we don't like our edge players. IMO, if you switch to 4-3 it makes our edge players look even more lacking.

I think a 4-3 Weakside DE is really hard to find. I can't see Watt holding up to that job. Maybe Dupree fits there but that's like starting over with him.

Honestly, move Watt to ILB, Dupree to LOLB, continue to play a lot of packages and 4-3 looks vs certain personnel and this D isn't that far away.

I think they could use another EDGE, preferably a stout vs run defender who is suited to play LOLB. I think they should have stuck with that interest in a situational pass rusher, too.


I would rather them move to a hybrid defense with 2 DTs that play 2 gap in the middle and two outside players. They can be OLB or DE.

That’s exactly the defense we played in 2017 on like 2/3 of the snaps.

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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:37 pm 
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Bud will be here one more season


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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:26 am 
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jebrick wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
I'm all for going to the 4-3... as soon as you tell me how switching solves the fact that we don't like our edge players. IMO, if you switch to 4-3 it makes our edge players look even more lacking.

I think a 4-3 Weakside DE is really hard to find. I can't see Watt holding up to that job. Maybe Dupree fits there but that's like starting over with him.

Honestly, move Watt to ILB, Dupree to LOLB, continue to play a lot of packages and 4-3 looks vs certain personnel and this D isn't that far away.

I think they could use another EDGE, preferably a stout vs run defender who is suited to play LOLB. I think they should have stuck with that interest in a situational pass rusher, too.


I would rather them move to a hybrid defense with 2 DTs that play 2 gap in the middle and two outside players. They can be OLB or DE.

So, no change, then? That's what they did this season.

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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:32 am 
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I hate to be Debbie Downer...No chance the Steelers move to a 43 defense.

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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:34 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
jebrick wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
I'm all for going to the 4-3... as soon as you tell me how switching solves the fact that we don't like our edge players. IMO, if you switch to 4-3 it makes our edge players look even more lacking.

I think a 4-3 Weakside DE is really hard to find. I can't see Watt holding up to that job. Maybe Dupree fits there but that's like starting over with him.

Honestly, move Watt to ILB, Dupree to LOLB, continue to play a lot of packages and 4-3 looks vs certain personnel and this D isn't that far away.

I think they could use another EDGE, preferably a stout vs run defender who is suited to play LOLB. I think they should have stuck with that interest in a situational pass rusher, too.


I would rather them move to a hybrid defense with 2 DTs that play 2 gap in the middle and two outside players. They can be OLB or DE.

That’s exactly the defense we played in 2017 on like 2/3 of the snaps.


I do not see any 2-gap in the defense this year. If so then they need to draft a fat body that can handle the double teams.

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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:06 pm 
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We should have switched to the 4-3 when we parted ways with LeBeau.

I don't think its impossible to switch. However, based on the last couple of drafts, I think we're married to the 3-4 defense for now.


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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:57 am 
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Looks like the Redskins could release Su'a Cravens later this year. Ideal SS/ILB hybrid? Thoughts on him?

http://www.espn.com/blog/washington-red ... -unsettled


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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:17 am 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
Looks like the Redskins could release Su'a Cravens later this year. Ideal SS/ILB hybrid? Thoughts on him?

http://www.espn.com/blog/washington-red ... -unsettled


Is this the guy who threaten to retire at the beginning of this year?

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 Post subject: Re: Easier to switch to 4-3
PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:25 am 
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Don't know his back story. Was mentioned in that article I linked to he walked away from the team though.


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