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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:40 pm 
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steel wrote:
GreekSteel wrote:
Thanks for posting Swiss. BTW my newest pet peeve is that when i say i think Tomlin deserves to be fired, the response of, well who would you replace him with??...really bugs the shit out of me... My quick response is who the fuck was Tomlin before he got hired by the Steelers. Moral of the story is, there are many good candidates out there, doesnt need to be a known entity. No fucking defense coaching changes, what a sack of horse fucking shit.


Hopefully this isn't the final word -- didn't Tomfuck leave open the possibility of defensive changes in the press conf?

Just as with Arians, Tomfuck said he was staying, and then a couple weeks later, he was fired.

Hopefully AR2 wakes up and makes some changes on defense.

Even though that's not really the main problem.




That is absolutely a main problem


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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:53 pm 
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Little more.....

Question was whether Steelers would ever fire Tomlin....

Dear Dave,

We said all year that the only way the Steelers wouldn’t be in the Super Bowl is if hey brat themselves. That’s what happened. Without question, they have the best offensive talent in the League
And in SEVEN games, we were lucky to win, had to win several of them with a last second field goal. Doesn’t that tell you something.
We lost to the Patriots in the AFC Title game last year and to Jacksonville this year because of our DEFENSE. Who coaches the defense!!! Mike Tomlin. He has complete control of the defense, just as Keith Butler said. He said Tomlin has to approve his game plan. Tomlin couldn’t fire any defensive coaches as he knows that he runs the defense. Tomlin also blew the Jacksonville game with choosing to on-side lick. The other thing is that on the two 4th and 1 calls, Ben changed the plays at the line of scrimmage with a check-off and he will not admit it. They blame Haley for the calls.

Art Rooney II would never fire Tomlin, at this stage. What holds for the future, we don’t know.

Jacksonville has a shot to win today, their defense is tough. It depends on Brady. If he is at the top of his game like he was against the Titans, it will not be easy. For some reason, I can’t think that Bortles will look like he did against the Steelers. The Titans beat Jacksonville twice and in two games, as I had said, Jacksonville scored one TD.

Well, Dave, the next few hours will tell the story.

God Bless,

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:01 pm 
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He's saying Ben checked into the sweep on 4th and 1?


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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:17 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
He's saying Ben checked into the sweep on 4th and 1?


That's what he's saying. Sometimes, he has the inside info; sometimes not. May have meant once, not both.


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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:14 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
I know some of you dismiss these thoughts, but for those that are interested....

Dear Dave,



Yes, Haley’s gone. Personally, I felt he did more than a reasonable job as OC and you are right about the off-field stuff. In the old days in the NFL, that kind of stuff happened every day and it was never reported. With all the off-field drinking and bar brawls Bobby Layne use to be involved with, he would have been let loose in one week. The same with coaches. Tomlin had to get the heat off him and letting Haley go did that. The reports that Ben and Haley had their problems make me think of Buddy Parker, our coach with the Steelers. I remember one day, he told us in the locker room, “ I don’t care what you guys think of me or what I think of you, just help me win football games.” Ben has an ego and every OC had problems with him. Ken Whisenhut had big problems with him, when Arians first came in, he had problems and now Haley. Even though Randy Fichtner seems to get along with Ben, you can be sure, there will be disagreements. It’s Ben’s nature, he has an ego.

Now look at Bell, as far as being late for the Saturday walk-thru practice and late for Sunday’s game. Just another episode in the lack of discipline under Tomlin’s watch. Did it affect Bell’s play on Sunday? Well, he made a great TD catch and a lateral from Ben for another TD. His immature antics may create a degree of disunity in the locker room and it may not affect Bell’s play but the mental attitude of his teammates. We have to admit, Dave, never will you see anything like this on a Patriot team, Belechik would never let it happen. Brown, Bryant, Bell and even Ben are the biggest problem why the Steelers fall short. They all have great talent and are the four” B’s” but talent isn’t enough when the “ Bees” are putting their “stinger” in to the team with their personal egos. Joe
Greene said it best when he talked to the Steeler team in the locker room before a game this past season. He said, “ you have to learn to play as a team and not as individuals” In the NFL, you have to have a team leader in the locker room, a true bona fide leader where everybody deeply respects. Chuck Noll operated the same way as Paul Brown, who he played for and I was blessed to have as a teammate. Mike McCormack was our team captain and leader, an outstanding offensive tackle. Paul Brown appointed Mike captain and told him that he was responsible for all that went on in the locker room.. He told Mike that if it involved something that Mike couldn’t handle, then he would go to Paul to tell him about it. Chuck did the same thing with Joe Greene. Back in the 70’s when the Steelers were winning Super Bowls, one year, in the middle of the season, Gilliam, the backup QB was coming late to meetings and it was evident that he was having a drug problem. Joe went to Gilliam, sat down with him and said, “ look, all of us are determined that we want to win another Super Bowl this year. In order to do so, we all have to be on 100 percent mental and physical cylinders. You are not. Stay away from that guy in McKeesport who you are getting your drugs from.” After a weeks went by, Gilliam’s behavior was still indicating drug use. Joe sat down with him again and said, “ look, you refuse to listen, I’m going to the “old man” ( Coach Noll) to tell him you refuse to listen.” Joe went to Chuck, told him and Chuck said, “ Okay, Joe, tell all of the guys to keep it under their hats and when the season is over, Gilliam’s cut.” Within a week, after the season’s end, Chuck cut him. The Steelers won four Super Bowls because of great talent and a great coach who knew how to run and control his team.

Dick LeBeau told me that his 2008 defense was the greatest defensive team he ever coached, on the field and off the field. He said that he had a great team leader in Jim Farrior. He said, “ Jim was like a coach on the field for me and in the locker room, he was a tremendous team leader.” The Steelers won the Super Bowl that year because of great defensive talent and a great defensive coach who his players loved and respected. Tomlin was a benefactor.

God Bless,

Bill


[u]My thoughts -
[/u]
* Haley came into the season without a contract, Steelers clearly intended to part ways with him barring a SB win.

* Tomlin may have hoped to turn down public scrutiny, but the local fanbase clearly doesn't like him (for football reasons and non-football reasons). The heat is on to stay. I still like Mike Tomlin, but having 2 weeks to prepare and still falling behind 21-0 to the Jags is unacceptable. He'd better win a second SB soon or he will be the first super bowl winning coach without a losing season to be fired.

* Discipline and its impact on winning- difficult to quantify - before Bouchette's story, no one had a clue about Bell's behavior last weekend, and the media was not there to witness it. Someone inside the organization leaked that information. Bell needs a good adviser - I don't think he'd be equally successful on a majority of other teams. Tomlin, Colbert & co. must embrace & promote the idea that it is poor professional form to "look ahead" or guarantee wins. Losing hurts, but it hurts more when foolish, avoidable behavior is easily visible to everyone.

* Ben's ego - He is selective about who he slings mud at - I don't care how gifted he is, he's wrong to throw his OC and HC under the bus as he often does. I'm a fan of Big Ben's, but I find these traits dishonorable and despicable - not justifiable. He seems to only protect the OL when given the chance to throw others under the bus - why? Because they can allow Malik Jackson and other people with bad intentions to crush him. Self preservation?

* Leadership - Pouncey is often identified as the leader on this team. He speaks, people listen - but he apparently doesn't speak much. Farrior appeared to be more vocal and he was deeply respected by the team. I vaguely recall Ryan Clark (I know, I know) mentioning this about Farrior.

* Belichick's mastery of personnel behavior - hmmm - I think what he masters is controlling players' social media habits and airing team business out in the media. He probably fines them heavily - who knows what else. Non-disclosure language on contracts? This guy coached Lawrence Taylor - imagine if Twitter and Instagram were available then.

* Tomlin is a benefactor - I hate this reasoning - Winning football games is hard, and because the season is only 16 games, each win/loss carries significant weight. Few people mention this but when Ben arrived in Pittsburgh, the roster was loaded with young, super bowl winning talent. It was set to become a true dynasty until Ben wrecked it in 2006. A further derailment, Bill Cowher's resignation and hiring from outside the organization. Steelers were fortunate to win a SB in 2008. Four strong contributors to that teams success - Mewelde Moore (FA), Woodley/Timmons (2007 draft), James Harrison (first year starter). Tomlin still deserves credit for his success with that inherited roster.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:17 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
Poltargyst wrote:
He's saying Ben checked into the sweep on 4th and 1?


That's what he's saying. Sometimes, he has the inside info; sometimes not. May have meant once, not both.


Ben is supposed to audible based on what the defense shows. Haley is calling the primary play, and also the audible.

So that IS 100% on Haley, unless you're going to argue Ben shouldn't have checked out of the original play (which, not knowing what it was, would just be speculation).

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:24 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
Poltargyst wrote:
He's saying Ben checked into the sweep on 4th and 1?


That's what he's saying. Sometimes, he has the inside info; sometimes not. May have meant once, not both.


Ben is supposed to audible based on what the defense shows. Haley is calling the primary play, and also the audible.

So that IS 100% on Haley, unless you're going to argue Ben shouldn't have checked out of the original play (which, not knowing what it was, would just be speculation).


Anytime something shitty happens it's Haley.

If it's good, Ben.

Been the obvious board narrative.

Of course Ben audibles and chooses to do all kinds of shit at the line. I have never once bought the narrative that terrible plays are all Haley mandates. Absurd.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:30 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:


Anytime something shitty happens it's Haley.

If it's good, Ben.

Been the obvious board narrative.

Of course Ben audibles and chooses to do all kinds of shit at the line. I have never once bought the narrative that terrible plays are all Haley mandates. Absurd.


Agree 100%, and I have no use for Haley.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:38 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
He's saying Ben checked into the sweep on 4th and 1?

Yeah...I’m calling bullshit on that.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:50 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Anytime something shitty happens it's Haley.

If it's good, Ben.

Been the obvious board narrative.

Of course Ben audibles and chooses to do all kinds of shit at the line. I have never once bought the narrative that terrible plays are all Haley mandates. Absurd.



So you're saying that wasn't the audible Haley sent in, and that Ben pulled it completely out of his ass?

Also, we can debate the "Haley bad, Ben infallible", but when they sent Haley away upstairs the offense took off. Obviously Ben makes mistakes, but it's been plainly obvious to a lot of people for a long time that Ben and the offense excel when Haley IS NOT calling the play.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:01 pm 
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I have never viewed Ben as a football smart QB.

He needed to 1st and foremost....see that the Jags were not ready, 10 men on field, not stacking the line, confused, etc,
Before the time out.

He is the QB. Supposed to be the leader of the team.
Take charge.
Be in command,
Snap and go.

Every single play and situation should not have to be dictated by the sideline.
There are many situation in a game, that dictate the QB ( ellite QBs ) making and taking decisions and running with them.

- Getting to the line and quick snapping after a favorable / questionable call.
- Snapping it quickly with too many defenders on the field
- Snapping it quickly with a defender trying to sprint off the field.
- Getting to line and seeing a defense confused and not ready. Not waiting to snap.

We do not see enough of this from Ben.

Look at the replay, he clearly sees Ramsey right up on the line of scrimmage.
He should know its the short side of the field.
He should know his slot WR that would be blocking on that side was Lil Eli Rogers.
He should know his RB is not fast to the edge.
He should know the speed of that defense.

All of this should have been avoided if the head coach had ironed these 4th and inches plays out a long time ago,
on Thursday before the game.........
On Friday,
On Saturday walk-thru
In pre-season,
In training camp
In OTA's
In his head during the off season.

Unfortunately, these plays are all decided on the battle field, in the heat of the moment when the intensity can blur one judgement.
Failure happened long before Ben was asked to use his brain and judgement.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:11 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Anytime something shitty happens it's Haley.

If it's good, Ben.

Been the obvious board narrative.

Of course Ben audibles and chooses to do all kinds of shit at the line. I have never once bought the narrative that terrible plays are all Haley mandates. Absurd.



So you're saying that wasn't the audible Haley sent in, and that Ben pulled it completely out of his ass?

Also, we can debate the "Haley bad, Ben infallible", but when they sent Haley away upstairs the offense took off. Obviously Ben makes mistakes, but it's been plainly obvious to a lot of people for a long time that Ben and the offense excel when Haley IS NOT calling the play.


I'm saying I watch Ben yell shit out presnap and then snap the ball. How in the world are we supposed to know what is Ben's choice and what is Haley's? What do you mean the audible Haley sent in? How do you know Haley sent any audible in? Is Ben a potted fucking plant out there with no ability to call audibles on his own? No Ben does not pull shot out of his ass. He has an entire playbook he knows at his disposal. Haley might have sent it in or Ben may have decided to audible into it himself. Maybe I don't understand how it works. Do only OCs decide to audible?

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:17 pm 
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depends. The coaches def give instructions on when/what they want audibles to be, and there likely are not unlimited audibles available from certain play calls/formations/personnel. It is likely that Ben could not, for instance, audible to any play in the playbook on any given presnap.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:21 pm 
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That's what he's saying. Sometimes, he has the inside info; sometimes not. May have meant once, not both.[/quote]

Ben is supposed to audible based on what the defense shows. Haley is calling the primary play, and also the audible.

So that IS 100% on Haley, unless you're going to argue Ben shouldn't have checked out of the original play (which, not knowing what it was, would just be speculation).[/quote]

Anytime something shitty happens it's Haley.

If it's good, Ben.

Been the obvious board narrative.

Of course Ben audibles and chooses to do all kinds of shit at the line. I have never once bought the narrative that terrible plays are all Haley mandates. Absurd.[/quote]

Im exhausted by the Haley does absolutely nothin correct narrative. Fuck the guy cant even go to a bar, he picks the wrong bar to go to :lol: :lol: I am absolutely ambivalent whether he stays or goes, but I know 1 thing Fichtner has some big shoe's to fill. The numbers dont lie. I also know if they struggle next year (offensively) the excuse making around here will be insufferable. Cant wait to hear how its (insert name) this guys fault that guys, Ben will be Lilly white. P.S. I hope he works out, just a little before camp and Im not talking about paddling a kayak or chopping wood which he has claimed were some of his work outs in the past


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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:31 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Do only OCs decide to audible?


As I've always understood it, UNCONDITIONALLY YES....unless your QB goes rogue. Which then re-opens the debate on the QB sneak, because you're saying Ben will audible to that monstrosity but not call his own number?

On a 4th Down play, out of a TO.....that call, and the audible, is most DEFINITELY Tomlin and Haley. Ben probably had input, but it's not his call.

Again, if you want to play what-if, you can decide on whether Ben should have audibled out of some unknown call. However, the audible he went to was 100% determined by Haley/Tomlin.

Holy shit, do you really honestly believe they came out of a TO and Ben came up with his own audible to a pitch sweep?!?

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:33 pm 
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Whoever the OC is gets the shit on this esteemed website.

Hit Rewind, go back six years, sub the name Arians for Haley and it's deja vu all over again.

Haley lost his job for two reasons.....
*Ben didn't like him.
*He was basically a dick...and got his ass kicked on the North Side.


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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:44 pm 
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Props to coach Priatko, at his tender age of 85, 86?? being able to write and spend as much time on the Steelers as he does giving his thoughts and perception.

Withitness at that age is incredible. Must keep his mind quite busy. Thanks Swiss.


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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:06 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Do only OCs decide to audible?


As I've always understood it, UNCONDITIONALLY YES....unless your QB goes rogue. Which then re-opens the debate on the QB sneak, because you're saying Ben will audible to that monstrosity but not call his own number?

On a 4th Down play, out of a TO.....that call, and the audible, is most DEFINITELY Tomlin and Haley. Ben probably had input, but it's not his call.

Again, if you want to play what-if, you can decide on whether Ben should have audibled out of some unknown call. However, the audible he went to was 100% determined by Haley/Tomlin.

Holy shit, do you really honestly believe they came out of a TO and Ben came up with his own audible to a pitch sweep?!?


If it's unconditionally the case that only OCs choose the exact audible a QB can call then there is no debate.

I naively assumed that Ben has leeway about what plays he wants to call at the line.

I do not presume to know who called the audible. How in the world am I supposed to know? I have not yet worked out how to hack into Ben's mic feed.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:09 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
Whoever the OC is gets the shit on this esteemed website.

Hit Rewind, go back six years, sub the name Arians for Haley and it's deja vu all over again.

Haley lost his job for two reasons.....
*Ben didn't like him.
*He was basically a dick...and got his ass kicked on the North Side.


I used to call it Arians Abortions, or the Magic 8 Ball!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:12 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
Whoever the OC is gets the shit on this esteemed website.

Hit Rewind, go back six years, sub the name Arians for Haley and it's deja vu all over again.

Haley lost his job for two reasons.....
*Ben didn't like him.
*He was basically a dick...and got his ass kicked on the North Side.

You don't think there was anything associated with his job performance that got him fired?


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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:17 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
How in the world am I supposed to know?


Common fucking sense. Do you really think, out of a TO on a critical 4th and 1, that Ben came up with his own different audible - mind you, a pitch sweep that had just failed miserably a few plays earlier?

If Ben was going to go rogue, he probably throws the ball - OR RUNS A GODDAMN QB SNEAK.

So in your effort to, I don't know, defend Haley/Tomlin....you're calling the coaches stupid, you're calling Ben stupid, and you're calling Ben a liar (because we would otherwise assume, if he goes rogue, he calls the QB sneak).

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:46 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
How in the world am I supposed to know?


Common fucking sense. Do you really think, out of a TO on a critical 4th and 1, that Ben came up with his own different audible - mind you, a pitch sweep that had just failed miserably a few plays earlier?

If Ben was going to go rogue, he probably throws the ball - OR RUNS A GODDAMN QB SNEAK.

So in your effort to, I don't know, defend Haley/Tomlin....you're calling the coaches stupid, you're calling Ben stupid, and you're calling Ben a liar (because we would otherwise assume, if he goes rogue, he calls the QB sneak).


Do I understand that you have moved from "unconditional" now to touting "common sense" as proof that Ben did not choose the pitch?

I'm not defending Haley or attacking Ben.

What initially suggested was that it's absurd to give Ben praise for everything good and to give Haley blame for everything bad.

We then moved on to discuss my ignorance about audibles.

B2B seems to think it is not so categorical as you do.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:12 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
Whoever the OC is gets the shit on this esteemed website.

Hit Rewind, go back six years, sub the name Arians for Haley and it's deja vu all over again.

Haley lost his job for two reasons.....
*Ben didn't like him.
*He was basically a dick...and got his ass kicked on the North Side.

You don't think there was anything associated with his job performance that got him fired?


Let me ask you a question based solely on statistical performance, no personality effect, who has had, for the last few years, better stats the OC or the DC. In our most recent season ending embarassment which coordinator delivered the goods I.E. points and which one shit his pants (to Blake Bortles).

U dont like Haley fine dont give a shit, BUT the performance over the past few years has been acceptable, its all about the personality. The pitch on 4th down may have been the worst call I have ever ever seen, screamed when I saw it developing, BUT it's not a fire able offense.


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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:24 pm 
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Lit, in my analysis, I equate it to determining if something is plagarism. You look for the voice of the writer-- some calls really seem to fit the profile of the calls when we know Haley is calling them and some fit more with the set (usually) Ben calls in no-huddle. Sometimes it's WTF knows? Sometimes they each call plays against type, although I'd argue Haley has done that less. Throw in a dose of "I'm going to run what that fucker wants me to run just to show his stupid ass that it won't work" and restrictions placed from above and... voila.

That toss sweep on 4th down is proven to be in Haley's DNA... he did it before and learned nothing from it. He can't help use his voice as a playcaller.

The game 2 vs. the Ravens? Sure looked like mostly Ben calling plays. Haley wasn't even pretending to talk into the mic.

that's a good starting point for evaluation

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:32 pm 
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Hinestuff wrote:
Props to coach Priatko, at his tender age of 85, 86?? being able to write and spend as much time on the Steelers as he does giving his thoughts and perception.

Withitness at that age is incredible. Must keep his mind quite busy. Thanks Swiss.


He's either 85 or 86, HinesStuff...I forget which. Coach is an absolute football junkie. He was at every Steeler game until Art II/Tomlin fucked over his friend LeBeau. He's at Heinz Field every year for the quadruple-header of high school championship games.

He's fun for me to correspond with.


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