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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:01 pm 
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I have never viewed Ben as a football smart QB.

He needed to 1st and foremost....see that the Jags were not ready, 10 men on field, not stacking the line, confused, etc,
Before the time out.

He is the QB. Supposed to be the leader of the team.
Take charge.
Be in command,
Snap and go.

Every single play and situation should not have to be dictated by the sideline.
There are many situation in a game, that dictate the QB ( ellite QBs ) making and taking decisions and running with them.

- Getting to the line and quick snapping after a favorable / questionable call.
- Snapping it quickly with too many defenders on the field
- Snapping it quickly with a defender trying to sprint off the field.
- Getting to line and seeing a defense confused and not ready. Not waiting to snap.

We do not see enough of this from Ben.

Look at the replay, he clearly sees Ramsey right up on the line of scrimmage.
He should know its the short side of the field.
He should know his slot WR that would be blocking on that side was Lil Eli Rogers.
He should know his RB is not fast to the edge.
He should know the speed of that defense.

All of this should have been avoided if the head coach had ironed these 4th and inches plays out a long time ago,
on Thursday before the game.........
On Friday,
On Saturday walk-thru
In pre-season,
In training camp
In OTA's
In his head during the off season.

Unfortunately, these plays are all decided on the battle field, in the heat of the moment when the intensity can blur one judgement.
Failure happened long before Ben was asked to use his brain and judgement.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:11 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Anytime something shitty happens it's Haley.

If it's good, Ben.

Been the obvious board narrative.

Of course Ben audibles and chooses to do all kinds of shit at the line. I have never once bought the narrative that terrible plays are all Haley mandates. Absurd.



So you're saying that wasn't the audible Haley sent in, and that Ben pulled it completely out of his ass?

Also, we can debate the "Haley bad, Ben infallible", but when they sent Haley away upstairs the offense took off. Obviously Ben makes mistakes, but it's been plainly obvious to a lot of people for a long time that Ben and the offense excel when Haley IS NOT calling the play.


I'm saying I watch Ben yell shit out presnap and then snap the ball. How in the world are we supposed to know what is Ben's choice and what is Haley's? What do you mean the audible Haley sent in? How do you know Haley sent any audible in? Is Ben a potted fucking plant out there with no ability to call audibles on his own? No Ben does not pull shot out of his ass. He has an entire playbook he knows at his disposal. Haley might have sent it in or Ben may have decided to audible into it himself. Maybe I don't understand how it works. Do only OCs decide to audible?

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:17 pm 
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depends. The coaches def give instructions on when/what they want audibles to be, and there likely are not unlimited audibles available from certain play calls/formations/personnel. It is likely that Ben could not, for instance, audible to any play in the playbook on any given presnap.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:21 pm 
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That's what he's saying. Sometimes, he has the inside info; sometimes not. May have meant once, not both.[/quote]

Ben is supposed to audible based on what the defense shows. Haley is calling the primary play, and also the audible.

So that IS 100% on Haley, unless you're going to argue Ben shouldn't have checked out of the original play (which, not knowing what it was, would just be speculation).[/quote]

Anytime something shitty happens it's Haley.

If it's good, Ben.

Been the obvious board narrative.

Of course Ben audibles and chooses to do all kinds of shit at the line. I have never once bought the narrative that terrible plays are all Haley mandates. Absurd.[/quote]

Im exhausted by the Haley does absolutely nothin correct narrative. Fuck the guy cant even go to a bar, he picks the wrong bar to go to :lol: :lol: I am absolutely ambivalent whether he stays or goes, but I know 1 thing Fichtner has some big shoe's to fill. The numbers dont lie. I also know if they struggle next year (offensively) the excuse making around here will be insufferable. Cant wait to hear how its (insert name) this guys fault that guys, Ben will be Lilly white. P.S. I hope he works out, just a little before camp and Im not talking about paddling a kayak or chopping wood which he has claimed were some of his work outs in the past


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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:31 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Do only OCs decide to audible?


As I've always understood it, UNCONDITIONALLY YES....unless your QB goes rogue. Which then re-opens the debate on the QB sneak, because you're saying Ben will audible to that monstrosity but not call his own number?

On a 4th Down play, out of a TO.....that call, and the audible, is most DEFINITELY Tomlin and Haley. Ben probably had input, but it's not his call.

Again, if you want to play what-if, you can decide on whether Ben should have audibled out of some unknown call. However, the audible he went to was 100% determined by Haley/Tomlin.

Holy shit, do you really honestly believe they came out of a TO and Ben came up with his own audible to a pitch sweep?!?

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Last edited by Kodiak on Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:33 pm 
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Whoever the OC is gets the shit on this esteemed website.

Hit Rewind, go back six years, sub the name Arians for Haley and it's deja vu all over again.

Haley lost his job for two reasons.....
*Ben didn't like him.
*He was basically a dick...and got his ass kicked on the North Side.


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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:44 pm 
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Props to coach Priatko, at his tender age of 85, 86?? being able to write and spend as much time on the Steelers as he does giving his thoughts and perception.

Withitness at that age is incredible. Must keep his mind quite busy. Thanks Swiss.


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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:06 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Do only OCs decide to audible?


As I've always understood it, UNCONDITIONALLY YES....unless your QB goes rogue. Which then re-opens the debate on the QB sneak, because you're saying Ben will audible to that monstrosity but not call his own number?

On a 4th Down play, out of a TO.....that call, and the audible, is most DEFINITELY Tomlin and Haley. Ben probably had input, but it's not his call.

Again, if you want to play what-if, you can decide on whether Ben should have audibled out of some unknown call. However, the audible he went to was 100% determined by Haley/Tomlin.

Holy shit, do you really honestly believe they came out of a TO and Ben came up with his own audible to a pitch sweep?!?


If it's unconditionally the case that only OCs choose the exact audible a QB can call then there is no debate.

I naively assumed that Ben has leeway about what plays he wants to call at the line.

I do not presume to know who called the audible. How in the world am I supposed to know? I have not yet worked out how to hack into Ben's mic feed.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:09 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
Whoever the OC is gets the shit on this esteemed website.

Hit Rewind, go back six years, sub the name Arians for Haley and it's deja vu all over again.

Haley lost his job for two reasons.....
*Ben didn't like him.
*He was basically a dick...and got his ass kicked on the North Side.


I used to call it Arians Abortions, or the Magic 8 Ball!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:12 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
Whoever the OC is gets the shit on this esteemed website.

Hit Rewind, go back six years, sub the name Arians for Haley and it's deja vu all over again.

Haley lost his job for two reasons.....
*Ben didn't like him.
*He was basically a dick...and got his ass kicked on the North Side.

You don't think there was anything associated with his job performance that got him fired?


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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:17 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
How in the world am I supposed to know?


Common fucking sense. Do you really think, out of a TO on a critical 4th and 1, that Ben came up with his own different audible - mind you, a pitch sweep that had just failed miserably a few plays earlier?

If Ben was going to go rogue, he probably throws the ball - OR RUNS A GODDAMN QB SNEAK.

So in your effort to, I don't know, defend Haley/Tomlin....you're calling the coaches stupid, you're calling Ben stupid, and you're calling Ben a liar (because we would otherwise assume, if he goes rogue, he calls the QB sneak).

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:46 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
How in the world am I supposed to know?


Common fucking sense. Do you really think, out of a TO on a critical 4th and 1, that Ben came up with his own different audible - mind you, a pitch sweep that had just failed miserably a few plays earlier?

If Ben was going to go rogue, he probably throws the ball - OR RUNS A GODDAMN QB SNEAK.

So in your effort to, I don't know, defend Haley/Tomlin....you're calling the coaches stupid, you're calling Ben stupid, and you're calling Ben a liar (because we would otherwise assume, if he goes rogue, he calls the QB sneak).


Do I understand that you have moved from "unconditional" now to touting "common sense" as proof that Ben did not choose the pitch?

I'm not defending Haley or attacking Ben.

What initially suggested was that it's absurd to give Ben praise for everything good and to give Haley blame for everything bad.

We then moved on to discuss my ignorance about audibles.

B2B seems to think it is not so categorical as you do.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:12 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
Whoever the OC is gets the shit on this esteemed website.

Hit Rewind, go back six years, sub the name Arians for Haley and it's deja vu all over again.

Haley lost his job for two reasons.....
*Ben didn't like him.
*He was basically a dick...and got his ass kicked on the North Side.

You don't think there was anything associated with his job performance that got him fired?


Let me ask you a question based solely on statistical performance, no personality effect, who has had, for the last few years, better stats the OC or the DC. In our most recent season ending embarassment which coordinator delivered the goods I.E. points and which one shit his pants (to Blake Bortles).

U dont like Haley fine dont give a shit, BUT the performance over the past few years has been acceptable, its all about the personality. The pitch on 4th down may have been the worst call I have ever ever seen, screamed when I saw it developing, BUT it's not a fire able offense.


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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:24 pm 
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Lit, in my analysis, I equate it to determining if something is plagarism. You look for the voice of the writer-- some calls really seem to fit the profile of the calls when we know Haley is calling them and some fit more with the set (usually) Ben calls in no-huddle. Sometimes it's WTF knows? Sometimes they each call plays against type, although I'd argue Haley has done that less. Throw in a dose of "I'm going to run what that fucker wants me to run just to show his stupid ass that it won't work" and restrictions placed from above and... voila.

That toss sweep on 4th down is proven to be in Haley's DNA... he did it before and learned nothing from it. He can't help use his voice as a playcaller.

The game 2 vs. the Ravens? Sure looked like mostly Ben calling plays. Haley wasn't even pretending to talk into the mic.

that's a good starting point for evaluation

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:32 pm 
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Hinestuff wrote:
Props to coach Priatko, at his tender age of 85, 86?? being able to write and spend as much time on the Steelers as he does giving his thoughts and perception.

Withitness at that age is incredible. Must keep his mind quite busy. Thanks Swiss.


He's either 85 or 86, HinesStuff...I forget which. Coach is an absolute football junkie. He was at every Steeler game until Art II/Tomlin fucked over his friend LeBeau. He's at Heinz Field every year for the quadruple-header of high school championship games.

He's fun for me to correspond with.


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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:39 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:
Whoever the OC is gets the shit on this esteemed website.

Hit Rewind, go back six years, sub the name Arians for Haley and it's deja vu all over again.

Haley lost his job for two reasons.....
*Ben didn't like him.
*He was basically a dick...and got his ass kicked on the North Side.

You don't think there was anything associated with his job performance that got him fired?


I think his fate was sealed when Fichtner came down from upstairs. His New Year's Eve North Side Escapade didn't help him any.


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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:56 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Lit, in my analysis, I equate it to determining if something is plagarism. You look for the voice of the writer-- some calls really seem to fit the profile of the calls when we know Haley is calling them and some fit more with the set (usually) Ben calls in no-huddle. Sometimes it's WTF knows? Sometimes they each call plays against type, although I'd argue Haley has done that less. Throw in a dose of "I'm going to run what that fucker wants me to run just to show his stupid ass that it won't work" and restrictions placed from above and... voila.

That toss sweep on 4th down is proven to be in Haley's DNA... he did it before and learned nothing from it. He can't help use his voice as a playcaller.

The game 2 vs. the Ravens? Sure looked like mostly Ben calling plays. Haley wasn't even pretending to talk into the mic.

that's a good starting point for evaluation


I think Kodiak made fine points.

So do you.

I'm not trying to argue about that play in particular, however.

I was making a general point: the board narrative is that anytime something bad happens regarding playcalling, it is always Haley and never Ben. I don't buy that that is true. Seems like you don't either.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:39 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Lit, in my analysis, I equate it to determining if something is plagarism. You look for the voice of the writer-- some calls really seem to fit the profile of the calls when we know Haley is calling them and some fit more with the set (usually) Ben calls in no-huddle. Sometimes it's WTF knows? Sometimes they each call plays against type, although I'd argue Haley has done that less. Throw in a dose of "I'm going to run what that fucker wants me to run just to show his stupid ass that it won't work" and restrictions placed from above and... voila.

That toss sweep on 4th down is proven to be in Haley's DNA... he did it before and learned nothing from it. He can't help use his voice as a playcaller.

The game 2 vs. the Ravens? Sure looked like mostly Ben calling plays. Haley wasn't even pretending to talk into the mic.

that's a good starting point for evaluation


I think Kodiak made fine points.

So do you.

I'm not trying to argue about that play in particular, however.

I was making a general point: the board narrative is that anytime something bad happens regarding playcalling, it is always Haley and never Ben. I don't buy that that is true. Seems like you don't either.

Not at all. Let's face it: we're all just reading the tea leaves, and that's the way they like it.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:54 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Kodiak wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Anytime something shitty happens it's Haley.

If it's good, Ben.

Been the obvious board narrative.

Of course Ben audibles and chooses to do all kinds of shit at the line. I have never once bought the narrative that terrible plays are all Haley mandates. Absurd.



So you're saying that wasn't the audible Haley sent in, and that Ben pulled it completely out of his ass?

Also, we can debate the "Haley bad, Ben infallible", but when they sent Haley away upstairs the offense took off. Obviously Ben makes mistakes, but it's been plainly obvious to a lot of people for a long time that Ben and the offense excel when Haley IS NOT calling the play.


I'm saying I watch Ben yell shit out presnap and then snap the ball. How in the world are we supposed to know what is Ben's choice and what is Haley's? What do you mean the audible Haley sent in? How do you know Haley sent any audible in? Is Ben a potted fucking plant out there with no ability to call audibles on his own? No Ben does not pull shot out of his ass. He has an entire playbook he knows at his disposal. Haley might have sent it in or Ben may have decided to audible into it himself. Maybe I don't understand how it works. Do only OCs decide to audible?

From my experiences, there are only 2, maybe 3 audibles out of each “called” play. If the call is for a run, there will be a second run and a pass to be audibles too. Maybe a RPO also. The QB most certainly does not have the entire playbook at his disposal in audible situations. When the OC sends in the play, he is also giving the QB his audible options.
A lot of the “shit” the QB is yelling pre-snap is nothing but window dressing. Just because we see the QB barking at his line and receivers doesn’t necessarily mean that he is changing the play.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:52 pm 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
A lot of the “shit” the QB is yelling pre-snap is nothing but window dressing. Just because we see the QB barking at his line and receivers doesn’t necessarily mean that he is changing the play.

He identifies who they are designating as the middle LB-- for blocking alignment purposes.
He often calls out protection scheme for the OL and RB.
He likely has the ability to flip the play from left to right or vice versa.
He might have a verbal signal to say the next thing I say is a dummy snap-- don't move!
He might have a verbal signal that the next thing I say I mean "Hike!"
He might change a play to one of a couple standard audible options.

That's what most of that stuff before the snap is... I would say most of the time it means something and isn't just window dressing.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:19 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Jobus Rum wrote:
A lot of the “shit” the QB is yelling pre-snap is nothing but window dressing. Just because we see the QB barking at his line and receivers doesn’t necessarily mean that he is changing the play.

He identifies who they are designating as the middle LB-- for blocking alignment purposes.
He often calls out protection scheme for the OL and RB.
He likely has the ability to flip the play from left to right or vice versa.
He might have a verbal signal to say the next thing I say is a dummy snap-- don't move!
He might have a verbal signal that the next thing I say I mean "Hike!"
He might change a play to one of a couple standard audible options.

That's what most of that stuff before the snap is... I would say most of the time it means something and isn't just window dressing.

“Blue double 2 white major 66 go”...one word in there might actually mean something. It really isn’t as difficult as you want to think it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:36 pm 
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Stinger8 wrote:
The pitch on 4th down may have been the worst call I have ever ever seen, screamed when I saw it developing, BUT it's not a fire able offense.

It absolutely is for some people on this board for Haley and Tomlin both.


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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:14 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
Stinger8 wrote:
The pitch on 4th down may have been the worst call I have ever ever seen, screamed when I saw it developing, BUT it's not a fire able offense.

It absolutely is for some people on this board for Haley and Tomlin both.


Why isn’t the worst call you’ve ever seen a fireable offense? In a league, especially the playoffs, where literally a single play, a single yard can change super bowl hopes to losing at home in a disaster, dudes need to not call the “worst call you’ve ever seen”. I agree about Butler and would dismiss him too.

Situational football, isn’t that what tomlin said in an interview in the offseason that this team, or he, was working on? How can you call the toss sweep on 4th and 1 in that situation? Perhaps Mike T. was OK with the way the game was going and didn’t see the importance of scoring on that drive?

Well he said that in his presser after the game, so I guess so. Not only is he a dumbass, he’s a confident dumbass that doesn’t really second guess himself. Have fun in Orlando, Mike.


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 Post subject: Re: Coach P's take....
PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:50 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:
Poltargyst wrote:
Stinger8 wrote:
The pitch on 4th down may have been the worst call I have ever ever seen, screamed when I saw it developing, BUT it's not a fire able offense.

It absolutely is for some people on this board for Haley and Tomlin both.


Why isn’t the worst call you’ve ever seen a fireable offense?

I don't know. Stinger?


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