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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:33 am 
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GreekSteel wrote:
On another note a very underrated talking point is the quality of coaching hires Tomlin makes.


I can't think of many from the Cowher tree having success in the NFL (or the Belicheat tree, oddly).

Say what you will, but Cowher left the FRANCHISE in excellent shape, both players and coaches, for Tomlin. It's alarming when you consider this team has done less as it has become more and more Tomlin's. The core staff and players he took to 2 SB's basically all Cowher guys. Tomlin has even only hired like 7 or 8 coaches that didn't coach or play for Cowher!
- Lebeau already in place as DC
- Arians promoted from WR coach to OC

Let's look at the rest of the current staff (ignoring a few assistant assistants and strength/conditioning guys):
DL: John Mitchell - hired by Cowher
DC: Keith Butler - hired by Cowher
OC: Randy Fitchner (hired 2007)
ST: Danny Smith (hired 2013)
TE: James Daniel (hired 2007)
OL: Mike Munchak (hired 2014)
RB: James Saxon (hired 2014)
Carnell Lake, Jerry Olsavsky, Joey Porter - played for Cowher

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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:43 am 
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GreekSteel wrote:
Tomlin cant wash Cowhers jock strap. Gimme a break, if Cowher had an in his prime Ben for the his entire coaching tenure, hed had have more than 1 SB.

On another note a very underrated talking point is the quality of coaching hires Tomlin makes. Pretty much none of Tomlins hires go on to become head coaches, like you'll probably never hear of a Tomlin coaching tree, ever...Cowher on the hand regularly had his coaching staffs raided for promotions. Munchak is the only quality hire that Tomlin has made, and none of his young new hires will ever amount to anythng, i mean who the hell is gonna hire lake, butler or porter, or olsavsky...these guys cant even show up on time for games.


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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:33 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
steelmann58 wrote:
You don't think Cowher would have more SB if Ben was his QB

Look how Cowher managed to fuck up 2004 and 2006 and get back to me on that.


Really?

Cowher had Ben for three seasons and Tomlin has had him for 11, and they both have one ring each. And yes, most of the players who won Tomlin his sticky Lombardi were Cowher's.

I used to say there wasn't a dime's bit of difference between Cowher and Tomlin. Mea culpa. Cowher was better. Not by much but better.

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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:40 pm 
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Obviously wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
steelmann58 wrote:
You don't think Cowher would have more SB if Ben was his QB

Look how Cowher managed to fuck up 2004 and 2006 and get back to me on that.


Really?

Cowher had Ben for three seasons and Tomlin has had him for 11, and they both have one ring each. And yes, most of the players who won Tomlin his sticky Lombardi were Cowher's.

I used to say there wasn't a dime's bit of difference between Cowher and Tomlin. Mea culpa. Cowher was better. Not by much but better.


I have to agree.

Cowher had his faults, but he was SHITLOADS better than Tomlin.

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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:44 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
GreekSteel wrote:
On another note a very underrated talking point is the quality of coaching hires Tomlin makes.


I can't think of many from the Cowher tree having success in the NFL (or the Belicheat tree, oddly).

Say what you will, but Cowher left the FRANCHISE in excellent shape, both players and coaches, for Tomlin. It's alarming when you consider this team has done less as it has become more and more Tomlin's. The core staff and players he took to 2 SB's basically all Cowher guys. Tomlin has even only hired like 7 or 8 coaches that didn't coach or play for Cowher!
- Lebeau already in place as DC
- Arians promoted from WR coach to OC

Let's look at the rest of the current staff (ignoring a few assistant assistants and strength/conditioning guys):
DL: John Mitchell - hired by Cowher
DC: Keith Butler - hired by Cowher
OC: Randy Fitchner (hired 2007)
ST: Danny Smith (hired 2013)
TE: James Daniel (hired 2007)
OL: Mike Munchak (hired 2014)
RB: James Saxon (hired 2014)
Carnell Lake, Jerry Olsavsky, Joey Porter - played for Cowher



Right, but Cowhers guys (and Bellicheks) regualrly were interviewed and hired for HC positions. Who the fuck would hire any of Tomlins guys?


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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:50 pm 
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Hinestuff wrote:
GreekSteel wrote:
Tomlin cant wash Cowhers jock strap. Gimme a break, if Cowher had an in his prime Ben for the his entire coaching tenure, hed had have more than 1 SB.

On another note a very underrated talking point is the quality of coaching hires Tomlin makes. Pretty much none of Tomlins hires go on to become head coaches, like you'll probably never hear of a Tomlin coaching tree, ever...Cowher on the hand regularly had his coaching staffs raided for promotions. Munchak is the only quality hire that Tomlin has made, and none of his young new hires will ever amount to anythng, i mean who the hell is gonna hire lake, butler or porter, or olsavsky...these guys cant even show up on time for games.


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Perhaps, i think with an his prime Ben Roethlisberger, Cowher has some success vs Brady and Bellichek and certainly more so that Tomlin...Tomlins entire offense is pretty much at the pro bowl and here we are 1 and done, because after a decade of trying to replace and retool Cowhers defense, his entire house of cards apperently hinged on Ryan Shazier. Bust after bust at OLB except hopefully TJ Watt but we shall see what he turns into after Joey Porter "coaches him up" for a couple more seasons.


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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:53 pm 
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Last game was awful no doubt - but it astonishes me how some people simply refuse to acknowledge that Ben has flourished under Tomlin. Whether you like it or not, Ben's progression to HOF QB is at least in part a result of the people Mike Tomlin has hired to teach him and the people he has chosen to run the offense.

You can say that Ben is Cowher's draft pick but the Ben you know and love was allowed to mature into the fine wine he is under Tomlin. If you don't think HC plays a role in QB development, I've got a Josh Freeman for you to meet.


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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:55 pm 
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KC"]
Obviously wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
steelmann58 wrote:
You don't think Cowher would have more SB if Ben was his QB

Look how Cowher managed to fuck up 2004 and 2006 and get back to me on that.


Really?

Cowher had Ben for three seasons and Tomlin has had him for 11, and they both have one ring each. And yes, most of the players who won Tomlin his sticky Lombardi were Cowher's.

I used to say there wasn't a dime's bit of difference between Cowher and Tomlin. Mea culpa. Cowher was better. Not by much but better.


I have to agree.

Cowher had his faults, but he was SHITLOADS better than Tomlin.[/quote]



Cowher went to SBs with QBs he drafted, NOD and Kordell, and a raw raw BR...Can you guys imagine Tomlin minus an in his prime Big Ben..i mean does anyone even want to imagine the disaster of Laundry fn Jones leading this team?? Everyone is on to Tomin now, he has just a few more ardent supporters left, you guys will come around soon enough. We aint winning shit with Tomlin in charge or Tomlins "way". Unless of course Ben and the offense bail his dumbass out.


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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:57 pm 
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FromPittWithLove wrote:
Last game was awful no doubt - but it astonishes me how some people simply refuse to acknowledge that Ben has flourished under Tomlin. Whether you like it or not, Ben's progression to HOF QB is at least in part a result of the people Mike Tomlin has hired to teach him and the people he has chosen to run the offense.

You can say that Ben is Cowher's draft pick but the Ben you know and love was allowed to mature into the fine wine he is under Tomlin. If you don't think HC plays a role in QB development, I've got a Josh Freeman for you to meet.




Ben was on a ridiculous trajectory for winning and YPA under Cowher. I hardly think Bens flourishing is as a result of Tomlin "coaching him up". But thats just me.


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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:00 pm 
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GreekSteel wrote:
FromPittWithLove wrote:
Last game was awful no doubt - but it astonishes me how some people simply refuse to acknowledge that Ben has flourished under Tomlin. Whether you like it or not, Ben's progression to HOF QB is at least in part a result of the people Mike Tomlin has hired to teach him and the people he has chosen to run the offense.

You can say that Ben is Cowher's draft pick but the Ben you know and love was allowed to mature into the fine wine he is under Tomlin. If you don't think HC plays a role in QB development, I've got a Josh Freeman for you to meet.




Ben was on a ridiculous trajectory for winning and YPA under Cowher. I hardly think Bens flourishing is as a result of Tomlin "coaching him up". But thats just me.


If you want to assign him blame for other personnel failures, he gets the credit when Ben flourishes and the credit when James Harrison flourishes. Period.


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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:02 pm 
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FromPittWithLove wrote:
If you want to assign him all the blame for other personnel failures, he gets the credit when Ben flourishes and the credit when James Harrison flourishes. Period.


This is, frankly, stupid. Ben was a HOF talent and was going to be great no matter how stupid the HC was.

I could give you Harrison, but when asked this question directly he himself kind of credited Cowher.

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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:04 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
FromPittWithLove wrote:
If you want to assign him all the blame for other personnel failures, he gets the credit when Ben flourishes and the credit when James Harrison flourishes. Period.


This is, frankly, stupid. Ben was a HOF talent and was going to be great no matter how stupid the HC was.

I could give you Harrison, but when asked this question directly he himself kind of credited Cowher.


I think you are missing my point - no doubt Ben was a HOF talent but it had to be cultivated. If you saw the Ben that you see today in the Ben of 2005, I think you are 100% lying.

If HOF talent is all it takes why do so many 1st round QBs bomb?


Last edited by FromPittWithLove on Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:06 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
FromPittWithLove wrote:
If you want to assign him all the blame for other personnel failures, he gets the credit when Ben flourishes and the credit when James Harrison flourishes. Period.


This is, frankly, stupid. Ben was a HOF talent and was going to be great no matter how stupid the HC was.

I could give you Harrison, but when asked this question directly he himself kind of credited Cowher.

So Harrison credits the guy who cut him?

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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:14 pm 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
So Harrison credits the guy who cut him?


Indeed he did. Same guy who gave Harrison a job in the NFL.

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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:15 pm 
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FromPittWithLove wrote:
I think you are missing my point - no doubt Ben was a HOF talent but it had to be cultivated. If you saw the Ben that you see today in the Ben of 2005, I think you are 100% lying.

If HOF talent is all it takes why do so many 1st round QBs bomb?


Ben was in his FOURTH year by the time Tomlin came onboard. And Ben was pretty good the second half of 2006. He was very good in 2007.

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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:16 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
FromPittWithLove wrote:
I think you are missing my point - no doubt Ben was a HOF talent but it had to be cultivated. If you saw the Ben that you see today in the Ben of 2005, I think you are 100% lying.

If HOF talent is all it takes why do so many 1st round QBs bomb?


Ben was in his FOURTH year by the time Tomlin came onboard. And Ben was pretty good the second half of 2006. He was very good in 2007.


If Ben is so great, then why did he choose to audible into a pitch sweep on fourth down?

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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
If Ben is so great, then why did he choose to audible into a pitch sweep on fourth down?


Maybe because the primary call was even worse?

Or are you still clinging to the misconception that Ben calls the audibles?

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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
If Ben is so great, then why did he choose to audible into a pitch sweep on fourth down?


Maybe because the primary call was even worse?

Or are you still clinging to the misconception that Ben calls the audibles?


Haha

I was just fucking with you.

:P

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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:21 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
FromPittWithLove wrote:
I think you are missing my point - no doubt Ben was a HOF talent but it had to be cultivated. If you saw the Ben that you see today in the Ben of 2005, I think you are 100% lying.

If HOF talent is all it takes why do so many 1st round QBs bomb?


Ben was in his FOURTH year by the time Tomlin came onboard. And Ben was pretty good the second half of 2006. He was very good in 2007.


You are making my point for me. Guess who promoted the WR coach to offensive coordinator that year?

I'm not even asking you to think that Tomlin has personally coached Ben up. I certainly don't believe that. The point I'm making is that Tomlin has made decisions that have helped Ben become who he is and, as the head coach, he gets credit for that.


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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:31 pm 
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GreekSteel wrote:



Cowher went to SBs with QBs he drafted, NOD and Kordell, and a raw raw BR...Can you guys imagine Tomlin minus an in his prime Big Ben..i mean does anyone even want to imagine the disaster of Laundry fn Jones leading this team?? Everyone is on to Tomin now, he has just a few more ardent supporters left, you guys will come around soon enough. We aint winning shit with Tomlin in charge or Tomlins "way". Unless of course Ben and the offense bail his dumbass out.

Noll drafted NOD. Clearly Cowher went to Super Bowl XXX with Noll's talent. ;)

Okay, here's a question: what was Noll's greatest failure, or did he have one at all? I'll vote for hiring Joe Walton which just killed all the momentum the 1989 playoff run produced.


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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:51 pm 
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FromPittWithLove wrote:
Guess who promoted the WR coach to offensive coordinator that year?


EMR.....or was this a trick question?

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 Post subject: Re: Biggest Failure of Tomlin Era?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:06 pm 
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It's a damn shame there are no trophies for a player "flourishing" isn't it? Ben certainly "flourished" vs. Jax after a horrid start. He "flourished" vs. NE last year at Foxboro. Unfortunately, he won't be "flourishing" a week from Sunday.

Because Tomlin.

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