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 Post subject: Re: The dumb argument for not firing Mike Tomlin
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:02 pm 
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GreekSteel wrote:
I honestly believe Tomlin and KC have 50/50 say in the draft


This is my understanding.

And Colbert built a pretty damn good championship roster with Cowher. I don't think KC is the problem here.

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 Post subject: Re: The dumb argument for not firing Mike Tomlin
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:42 pm 
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Gonzo wrote:
I aolsutley love the argument to ignore everything you see and hear
Because you can't possibly know what you don't see and hear
its beautifully because it then inevitably leads to the argued supposing their own view of what's not seen or heard. So ... let's not dwell on what's obvious and instead Discuss my view of what's not provable. A tiny tiny teapot


I often find myself tempted, and probably have, on more than one occasion dismissed arguments right along this line of reasoning.
But ultimately, what the appeal of a message board if we don't argue over things we're not remotely qualified to argue about?

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 Post subject: Re: The dumb argument for not firing Mike Tomlin
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 6:48 pm 
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DrMalba wrote:
I often find myself tempted, and probably have, on more than one occasion dismissed arguments right along this line of reasoning.
But ultimately, what the appeal of a message board if we don't argue over things we're not remotely qualified to argue about?


Well, it's a tactic usually favored by the apologists - we can't question the results because we don't know who made what decisions.

But that's actually the reason many people favor results-oriented evaluations. The above is usually the strategy for people trying to avoid or ignore the results.

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 Post subject: Re: The dumb argument for not firing Mike Tomlin
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:25 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
DrMalba wrote:
I often find myself tempted, and probably have, on more than one occasion dismissed arguments right along this line of reasoning.
But ultimately, what the appeal of a message board if we don't argue over things we're not remotely qualified to argue about?


Well, it's a tactic usually favored by the apologists - we can't question the results because we don't know who made what decisions.

But that's actually the reason many people favor results-oriented evaluations. The above is usually the strategy for people trying to avoid or ignore the results.


I am very much a results-oriented fan, which given the state of the league means we're overall pretty high above the mean. What I always fall back on is the state of our team from 1983 up until Cowher took over, the period of time over which I became a football fan and a die-hard Steelers fan.

Noll's 80s Steelers teams were not as talent-laden or as competitive as the majority of Tomlin's teams. And in those days the AFC Central was regularly slandered as one of the weakest divisions in football in the weaker of the two conferences. Compared to that time, and even factoring in the Clowns. Tomlin is facing a far more competitive division on a year to year basis, to say nothing of the annual playoff steamroller that is the New England Patriots.
I still do think its a big deal to win your division, get into the playoffs as much as Tomlin does, and to never have a losing season.

All that said, we've had two consecutive seasons with pretty good shots to win it all, and we have not.
And whereas in some seasons I think we almost overachieved (2015) Tomlin has three IMO bad early exits (2007, 2011, 2014) prior to this year. Your murderer's row of opposing QBs in those losses: Garrard, Tebow, Flacco, and Bortles.
So I get the impatience with the guy after this season, especially given the lunatics-running-the-asylum feel of it all, the absolute debacle with Harrison, and how it all ended.

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 Post subject: Re: The dumb argument for not firing Mike Tomlin
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:28 pm 
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DrMalba wrote:
Tomlin has three IMO bad early exits (2007, 2011, 2014) prior to this year.


And you have "easing in" with the SB against GB. Along with an embarassing loss in the AFCC last year.

Those are results that matter. The regular season success with a talented roster and HOF QB does not impress me.

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 Post subject: Re: The dumb argument for not firing Mike Tomlin
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:53 pm 
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Quote:
His best player, and perhaps the best individual skill position player in the NFL (Antonio Brown) was a sixth-round pick in Colbert’s first year calling the shots.


The quote above is from the Barry Foster link who was attempting to be a wise ass with his some unknown publication

My contention is the draft, free agent signings, and direction of the franchise on field

2017(Excluded)
1 30 T.J. Watt LB Wisconsin
2 2 30 62 JuJu Smith-Schuster WR USC
3 3 30 94 Cameron Sutton DB Tennessee
4 3 41 105 James Conner RB Pittsburgh
5 4 29 135 Joshua Dobbs QB Tennessee
6 5 30 173 Brian Allen DB Utah
7 6 30 213 Colin Holba C Louisville
8 7 30 248 Keion Adams LB Western Michigan

2016(Excluded)
1 25 25 Artie Burns DB Miami (FL)
2 2 27 58 Sean Davis DB Maryland
3 3 26 89 Javon Hargrave DT South Carolina State
4 4 25 123 Jerald Hawkins T Louisiana State
5 6 45 220 Travis Feeney LB Washington
6 7 8 229 DeMarcus Ayers WR Houston
7 7 25 246 Tyler Matakevich LB Temple

2015 1 1 22 22 Bud Dupree LB Kentucky
2 2 24 56 Senquez Golson DB Mississippi
3 3 23 87 Sammie Coates WR Auburn
4 4 22 121 Doran Grant DB Ohio State
5 5 24 160 Jesse James TE Penn State
6 6 23 199 Leterrius Walton DT Central Michigan
7 6 36 212 Anthony Chickillo DE Miami (FL)
8 7 22 239 Gerod Holliman DB Louisville

2014
1 15 Ryan Shazier LB Ohio State
2 2 14 46 Stephon Tuitt DE Notre Dame
3 3 33 97 Dri Archer RB Kent State
4 4 18 118 Martavis Bryant WR Clemson
5 5 17 157 Shaquille Richardson DB Arizona
6 5 33 173 Wesley Johnson T Vanderbilt
7 6 16 192 Jordan Zumwalt LB UCLA
8 6 39 215 Daniel McCullers DT Tennessee
9 7 15 230 Rob Blanchflower TE Massachusetts

2013
1 17 Jarvis Jones LB Georgia
2 2 16 48 Le'Veon Bell RB Michigan State
3 3 17 79 Markus Wheaton WR Oregon State
4 4 14 111 Shamarko Thomas DB Syracuse
5 4 18 115 Landry Jones QB Oklahoma
6 5 17 150 Terry Hawthorne DB Illinois
7 6 18 186 Justin Brown WR Oklahoma
8 6 38 206 Vince Williams LB Florida State
9 7 17 223 Nick Williams DT Samford

2012 1 1 24 24 David DeCastro G Stanford
2 2 24 56 Mike Adams T Ohio State
3 3 23 86 Sean Spence LB Miami (FL)
4 4 14 109 Alameda Ta'amu DT Washington
5 5 24 159 Chris Rainey RB Florida
6 7 24 231 Toney Clemons WR Colorado
7 7 33 240 David Paulson TE Oregon
8 7 39 246 Terrence Frederick DB Texas A&M
9 7 41 248 Kelvin Beachum T Southern Methodist

2011 1 1 31 31 Cameron Hayward DE Ohio State
2 2 31 63 Marcus Gilbert T Florida
3 3 31 95 Curtis Brown DB Texas
4 4 31 128 Cortez Allen DB Citadel
5 5 31 162 Chris Carter LB Fresno State
6 6 31 196 Keith Williams G Nebraska
7 7 29 232 Baron Batch RB Texas Tech

2010 1 1 18 18 Maurkice Pouncey C Florida
2 2 20 52 Jason Worilds LB Virginia Tech
3 3 18 82 Emmanuel Sanders WR Southern Methodist
4 4 18 116 Thaddeus Gibson LB Ohio State
5 5 20 151 Chris Scott G Tennessee
6 5 33 164 Crezdon Butler DB Clemson
7 5 35 166 Stevenson Sylvester LB Utah
8 6 19 188 Jonathan Dwyer RB Georgia Tech
9 6 26 195 Antonio Brown WR Central Michigan
10 7 35 242 Doug Worthington DE Ohio State

Bolded players I call wins...Everyone else I call a bust. I did not touch the past two drafts.

Free Agent signings have been hit or miss

Mike Mitchell
JJ Wilcox
Ladarius Green
Vance Macdonald
Justin Hunter
Villy
Boswell
Tyson Alalau


I left off some of the horrid signings tried to be fair I also kept it to the recent signings

Lastly I guess what I am trying to say is I hate the incestuous style at this point

The Steelers have the same scouts/ Same methods(BLESTO)
They recycle coaches
Former players as scouts
Recycle ideas
The Steelers lack an identity on the field
The Steelers way has stayed the same since April of 1992
New ideas
Fresh perspectives are needed

I dont believe firing Tomlin is the answer
I don't believe firing Colbert is the answer

I think firing both is the answer.

This franchise has a slow rot when the calendar turns.

HOF quarterback
Several elite backs
Very good offensive lines
Elite receivers
Great defenses

Zero championships since 2010
Many failures...Tomlin had his share
Not having a single fucking capable inside backer on the horizon is a Colbert problem since he called the shots since 2010
Does Colbert share in the off field issues of Bryant and Bell...How about Blount? Is that purely a Tomlin thing?

Lack of direction.
Lack of control

Slow rot.

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 Post subject: Re: The dumb argument for not firing Mike Tomlin
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:30 pm 
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Quote:
Lastly I guess what I am trying to say is I hate the incestuous style at this point

The Steelers have the same scouts/ Same methods(BLESTO)
They recycle coaches
Former players as scouts
Recycle ideas
The Steelers lack an identity on the field
The Steelers way has stayed the same since April of 1992
New ideas
Fresh perspectives are needed

Very well said. I could not agree more.

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 Post subject: Re: The dumb argument for not firing Mike Tomlin
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:37 pm 
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What GM do you replace Colbert with?

That’s for you FC

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 Post subject: Re: The dumb argument for not firing Mike Tomlin
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:38 pm 
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I have no problem giving Colbert the boot as well and agree with FC he is a big part of the problem.

Every team misses on players.

We suffer from a failed thought process.

Perfect example is Dri Archer.

That wasn’t a failed pick. That was a failure of their thought process as it related to the RB position.


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 Post subject: Re: The dumb argument for not firing Mike Tomlin
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:45 pm 
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Agree completely that things have become stale


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