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 Post subject: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:16 pm 
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This year’s NFL MDP Award — Most Delusional Person — has to go to pass-rush guru Chuck Smith, who predicted that one of his clients, Steelers linebacker Bud Dupree, would be the league’s Defensive Player of the Year.

Smith might as well have predicted the Cleveland Browns to go 19-0.

Dupree had eight games where he recorded one or fewer solo tackles. Fewer than one would be none, which happened against Jacksonville (regular season) and Cleveland. Digest that for a moment.

Dupree had no forced fumbles (one in his 38-game career). He had six sacks. He rarely beat a tackle one-on-one. He remained invisible for long stretches, notably both Jacksonville games, in which he totaled four tackles, zero quarterback hits and nary a big play.


I’m told he is pretty good in coverage, but since when do the Steelers draft outside linebackers in the first round because they’re adept at dropping into short zones? I always thought they paid such players to produce game-altering plays, preferably in the offensive backfield.

“Yes, but Dupree is always asked to cover people!” some say.

“Then make a play downfield!” I say.

And you know what? If Dupree drops three-quarters of the time, as some will tell you, then why in the world would you give him another contract? I can get a lot of guys to do that.

Bottom line: Three years in, Dupree has shown very little to justify his draft slot (22nd overall) and will soon be known as “Dud” Dupree if he doesn’t turn it around. I wouldn’t yet say he is wading into Jarvis Jones waters, but he does remind me of a late-stage Jason Worilds. If that.

And now comes a crossroads. Sort of. The Steelers must decide whether to make an initial commitment to the fifth-year option — the 2019 season — on Dupree’s rookie contract. The initial commitment must be made by May 3.

The option could be worth more than $9 million, but “committing” to it by May 3 is pretty much the equivalent of a high-school athlete verbally committing to a college. It doesn’t mean much.

Here’s why: The Steelers can renege, without financial repercussion, after the 2018 season (though they would lose draft-pick compensation if Dupree were to sign with another team).

That’s right, they can simply say “No thanks” to the fifth-year option in a year, even if they “commit” to it now. There is a long-term injury exception, in which the fifth-year salary is guaranteed, but the point is clear: Barring catastrophic injury, the Steelers have another season to evaluate Dupree.

As such, it’s an easy decision, right? Pick up the option, see if he performs next season and then make your call.

Only I’m not sure that’s the Steelers’ best move.

I’d rather see them take another outside linebacker early in the draft, decline Dupree’s option and put him on the spot. Make him prove himself. If he turns into Lawrence Taylor, they could always slap a franchise tag on him — even if it would be way more expensive than the option — and try to work out a multi-year deal.

Light a fire under this guy, put him on notice, rather than make him any sort of pledge.

Dupree defenders will tell you the Steelers have de-emphasized an outside linebacker-centric pass rush — that Dupree was asked to cover a lot — and still set a franchise record in sacks.

That sounds good, but how was their situational pass rush? Which is to say, where was it when it mattered most?

They didn’t do much in allowing 38 points to the Baltimore Ravens, not sacking Joe Flacco until the final play of the game. They couldn’t stop Tom Brady with the game on the line. They barely touched Blake Bortles.

In fact, the Steelers did not record a negative-yardage play against the Jaguars, save for Bortles falling on a fumble after a bad snap exchange.

Where in the Worilds was Bud Dupree that day?

Where in the Worilds was the Steelers’ outside push when they needed it most?

Dupree did have a sack against New England, but if you watch the play closely, it was Rob Gronkowski, of all people, who sent Dupree on his way by awkwardly chipping him at the last moment, sending him inside and thus confounding the offensive tackle. It was a fluky play.

To be fair, Dupree has battled injuries. Those included a lingering shoulder issue this season. He might very well bounce back and prove his worth next year. I hope he does.

But if I’m Chuck Smith, I’m not making any predictions.


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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:21 pm 
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Worilds was a much, much better player than Dupree.

Not even close rushing the passer. Worilds actually applied pressure. Dupree simply doesn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:23 pm 
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KC wrote:
Worilds was a much, much better player than Dupree.

Not even close rushing the passer. Worilds actually applied pressure. Dupree simply doesn't.




agreed overall sentiment in that article tho is that Dupree has mostly been a dud, he also pous cold water on that sorry coverage excuse for lack of pressure by the Dud


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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:23 pm 
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Bud and Jarvis had two completely different approaches to accomplishing the same result (or lack of results)

Man, this team struggles to draft the OLB and CB positions.

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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:26 pm 
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Lifelongsteel wrote:
Bud and Jarvis had two completely different approaches to accomplishing the same result (or lack of results)

Man, this team struggles to DEVELOP the OLB and CB positions.



fixed it for you..and that lack of development is an indictment on TOMLIN and HIS COACHES


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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:29 pm 
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Lifelongsteel wrote:
Bud and Jarvis had two completely different approaches to accomplishing the same result (or lack of results)

Man, this team struggles to draft the OLB and CB positions.


I think the Steelers panicked in taking Artie Burns, when they were NO DOUBT expecting to William Jackson to be there when they chose.

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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:33 pm 
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KC wrote:
Lifelongsteel wrote:
Bud and Jarvis had two completely different approaches to accomplishing the same result (or lack of results)

Man, this team struggles to draft the OLB and CB positions.


I think the Steelers panicked in taking Artie Burns, when they were NO DOUBT expecting to William Jackson to be there when they chose.



Tomlin panic?? nooo waayy


/sarca


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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:45 pm 
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Thanks for the Starkey article...a very thorough analysis of the situation. If the Steelers commit to the 5th year for this guy they're crazy. I like the idea of putting some heat on him but it may not be worth a draft pick to do it. One thing is for sure and that is their pass rush from the edge is non existent now that Deebo has departed the scene. The Black and Gold had an easy schedule and won a bunch of close games last season. If the pass rush does not improve, especially with Ryan Shazier out of the picture, they will not be so lucky next year.


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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:50 pm 
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Hated the Dupree pick... Had my fingers crossed Landon Collins would be the pick.


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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:10 pm 
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Worilds absolutely fucked this team when he retired. The fact that Colbert can't draft a pass rusher to save his life doesn't help, either. Unless I'm mistaken, in 17 years, Colbert has drafted exactly 2 serviceable starters at OLB: Haggans and Woodley. That's fucking horrible. I mean, I guess you could give him credit for bringing Debo in, but that was more Harrison's agent leveraging him onto the roster because Cowher wanted another client of his. IMO, Tomlin and Colbert should both be gone. The Superbowl equity has expired.

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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:15 pm 
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GreekSteel wrote:
Lifelongsteel wrote:
Bud and Jarvis had two completely different approaches to accomplishing the same result (or lack of results)

Man, this team struggles to DEVELOP the OLB and CB positions.



fixed it for you..and that lack of development is an indictment on TOMLIN and HIS COACHES

I’m leaning more to the development aspect also. Not all these players can be this bad...can they?

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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:21 pm 
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86n96 wrote:
Worilds absolutely fucked this team when he retired. The fact that Colbert can't draft a pass rusher to save his life doesn't help, either. Unless I'm mistaken, in 17 years, Colbert has drafted exactly 2 serviceable starters at OLB: Haggans and Woodley. That's fucking horrible. I mean, I guess you could give him credit for bringing Debo in, but that was more Harrison's agent leveraging him onto the roster because Cowher wanted another client of his. IMO, Tomlin and Colbert should both be gone. The Superbowl equity has expired.

I would give the Haggans pick to Porter, if I remember he convinced the Steelers to take him.


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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:20 pm 
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Dupree isn't so far off of Joey Porter's first three seasons numbers, and is ahead of the pace of Gildon and Worilds. If Bud turns into a Worilds that doesn't quit the game right when he finally starts playing, that would be great. It's not impossible-- remember what Worilds looked like at this point of his career.

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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:14 pm 
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Really the thing that kills me is observing Dud as he watches plays unfold. Stands there and does nothing to contribute to the tackle. Does nothing but stop his pursuit and watch. The part that kills me the most is he has the best seat in the house to watch games. If you go back and watch Dupree you'd see him in the midst of the play looking like, "oh good someone else got 'em" as he stops his play. It's infuriating. I agree with the post that claimed they panicked with the Burns pick. You know how they like to sprint to the podium. Burns is soft like Dupree.


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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:27 pm 
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So if they sign the 5th year it only guaranteed if he injured. If they cut him before the new season we are not charged cap wise


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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:03 pm 
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Yeah, maybe Bud will turn out to be a 'Dud', but I think the 3-4 scheme that we employ also plays a big part in the diminishing returns of our pass rushing OLBs. Even Worilds was not really all that good, and only flashed late before retiring.

I keep saying this but our scheme sucks, it confuses our players, makes them think too much, negates their gifts, their athleticism. I will give you an example of what I mean in terms of how other teams avoid this paralysis by analysis.

Carl Lawson. Seemingly everyone on SteelerFury wanted the Steelers to draft this edge rusher. Would be perfect as one of our OLBs I was told. I didn't see it because I saw a player who would not be great dropping into coverage or at setting the edge. I do think he would have been perfect in a 4-3 defense where he was part of a rotation and was allowed to just seek and destroy as a pass rusher.

This is what Cincy did. They took this player and said hey we don't care if you can set the edge, we don't care if you can't drop into coverage, see that QB? Put him on the ground.

Carl Lawson played in all 16 games as a rookie and was officially credited with just one game started. He played 42% of the defensive snaps, he played in a rotation. He had 8 sacks as a rookie. He only had 15 tackles on the year, 10 of them solo. Again, the Bengals found a way to maximize this young man's talents. If he were playing 85% of the snaps as a 3-4 OLB he would probably be exposed as a pretty poor defender against the run, he would probably also be abused in pass coverage, and he might also see his pass rushing suffer due to his head swimming with trying to keep up with this assignment or that, this responsibility or that. In effect he might be another Bud Dupree.

But Lawson is not Bud Dupree and it is because of the scheme and having less responsibilities. He is in a defense that allows him to play fast, play hard and just pass rush. This stuff is not that hard, it is really easy in my mind. Only in Pittsburgh have we taken playing defense to the point where it is so damn complicated.

Fix the scheme, fix the pass rush. 4-3 teams draft 6'2" 250-260 pass rushers all the time and play them as DEs and have great success. We take these same players and then proceed to confuse them and put too much on their plates and neuter them. It really is that simple and clear cut, at least to me anyway.

Look at Brandon Graham of Philly. He was not setting the world on fire as a 3-4 OLB in Philly. Then Schwartz comes in changes the defense to a 4-3 and Graham responds with his best play ever as a pass rusher. Graham would be just as ineffective as Dupree if we had drafted him and played him in our 3-4 defense.

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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:06 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
Yeah, maybe Bud will turn out to be a 'Dud', but I think the 3-4 scheme that we employ also plays a big part in the diminishing returns of our pass rushing OLBs. Even Worilds was not really all that good, and only flashed late before retiring.

I keep saying this but our scheme sucks, it confuses our players, makes them think too much, negates their gifts, their athleticism. I will give you an example of what I mean in terms of how other teams avoid this paralysis by analysis.

Carl Lawson. Seemingly everyone on SteelerFury wanted the Steelers to draft this edge rusher. Would be perfect as one of our OLBs I was told. I didn't see it because I saw a player who would not be great dropping into coverage or at setting the edge. I do think he would have been perfect in a 4-3 defense where he was part of a rotation and was allowed to just seek and destroy as a pass rusher.

This is what Cincy did. They took this player and said hey we don't care if you can set the edge, we don't care if you can't drop into coverage, see that QB? Put him on the ground.

Carl Lawson played in all 16 games as a rookie and was officially credited with just one game started. He played 42% of the defensive snaps, he played in a rotation. He had 8 sacks as a rookie. He only had 15 tackles on the year, 10 of them solo. Again, the Bengals found a way to maximize this young man's talents. If he were playing 85% of the snaps as a 3-4 OLB he would probably be exposed as a pretty poor defender against the run, he would probably also be abused in pass coverage, and he might also see his pass rushing suffer due to his head swimming with trying to keep up with this assignment or that, this responsibility or that. In effect he might be another Bud Dupree.

But Lawson is not Bud Dupree and it is because of the scheme and having less responsibilities. He is in a defense that allows him to play fast, play hard and just pass rush. This stuff is not that hard, it is really easy in my mind. Only in Pittsburgh have we taken playing defense to the point where it is so damn complicated.

Fix the scheme, fix the pass rush. 4-3 teams draft 6'2" 250-260 pass rushers all the time and play them as DEs and have great success. We take these same players and then proceed to confuse them and put too much on their plates and neuter them. It really is that simple and clear cut, at least to me anyway.

Look at Brandon Graham of Philly. He was not setting the world on fire as a 3-4 OLB in Philly. Then Schwartz comes in changes the defense to a 4-3 and Graham responds with his best play ever as a pass rusher. Graham would be just as ineffective as Dupree if we had drafted him and played him in our 3-4 defense.



It could be that for sure but then Dud Dupree could be another Jervis. You're probably right tho and thats why Harrison did indeed have something left. I mean if your scheme is neutering your players, ya change the scheme or fire these turds who are neutering them. Id personally be more inclined to fire these dumbasses and change the scheme.


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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:49 pm 
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1994 called and they want their scheme back. What we do fools nobody. Evidenced by the fact green ass rooks and crap QBs can have career days against us.

Steve Young (who I think is a douche) made a point a few years back about our defense being more complicated to run than it is to decipher. He said it’s actually not that complicated to exploit.

Pair that with rule changes that favor the offenses heavily and all signs point to a change in order.

Call me crazy but I want my dline and linebackers to worry about stopping the run and killing the QB while my CBs & safeties worry about coverage.

If I’m blessed to have a linebacker that excels at both then bonus.

What I dont want is a linebacker who’s mediocre to ill equipped in coverage spending a lot of time doing so.

And the days of thinking it’s ingenious to drop a dline into coverage are long gone. All it does is provide an opportunity to get exploited.


Last edited by 955876 on Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:54 pm 
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955876 wrote:
1994 called and they want their scheme back. What we do fools nobody. Evidenced by the fact green ass rooks and crap QBs can have career days against us.

Steve Young (who I think is a douche) made a point a few years back about our defense being more complicated to run than it is to decipher. He said it’s actually not that complicated to exploit.

Pair that with rule changes that favor the offenses heavily and all signs point to a change in order.

Call me crazy but I want my dline and linebackers to worry about stopping the run and killing the QB while my CBs & safeties worry about coverage.

If I’m blessed to have a linebacker that excels at both then bonus.

What I dont want is a linebacker who’s mediocre to I’ll equiped in coverage spending a lot of time doing so.


And the days of thinking it’s ingenious to drop a dline into coverage are long gone. All it does is provide an opportunity to get exploited.




Tomlins got this...just be patient, its only year 8 of his rebuild. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:17 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Dupree isn't so far off of Joey Porter's first three seasons numbers, and is ahead of the pace of Gildon and Worilds. If Bud turns into a Worilds that doesn't quit the game right when he finally starts playing, that would be great. It's not impossible-- remember what Worilds looked like at this point of his career.


Good points. I'm not sure why some people are acting like Worilds was some amazing draft pick/elite rusher. The guy pretty much stunk his first three years and then had two VERY slightly above average years before he retired. The reason it was a shock was because we were very very thin at the position as it was.
This waxing poetic about Worilds is comical.

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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:31 am 
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86n96 wrote:
Worilds absolutely fucked this team when he retired. The fact that Colbert can't draft a pass rusher to save his life doesn't help, either. Unless I'm mistaken, in 17 years, Colbert has drafted exactly 2 serviceable starters at OLB: Haggans and Woodley. That's fucking horrible. I mean, I guess you could give him credit for bringing Debo in, but that was more Harrison's agent leveraging him onto the roster because Cowher wanted another client of his. IMO, Tomlin and Colbert should both be gone. The Superbowl equity has expired.


It's hard to blame Colbert for this. Colbert has put together the best offense in the league. He also nailed the Heyward and Shazier picks. Found guys like AB, V Will, and Jesse James in the bottom rounds. The problem is and always has been our inability to coach up players on the defensive side of the ball. Particularly at OLB and in the secondary.

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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:34 am 
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Secondary coach Darren Perry is available and the Steelers have not gotten fair return from Lake as their secondary coach. Easy exchange...

As far as pass rusher development? Porter is a fucking joke. JMO

The fact that no defensive coaches were held accountable for allowing the jag offense led by blake fucking bortles responsible is a travesty and infuriating. Heads should have rolled.


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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:39 am 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
Secondary coach Darren Perry is available and the Steelers have not gotten fair return from Lake as their secondary coach. Easy exchange...

As far as pass rusher development? Porter is a fucking joke. JMO

The fact that no defensive coaches were held accountable for allowing the jag offense led by blake fucking bortles responsible is a travesty and infuriating. Heads should have rolled.


Agree 100% with the defensive coaches. Porter and Lake should have been held accountable for their continued underachievement coaching these units.
I'm not a Tomlin hater, but the fact that no one was let go screams of maintaining friendships over making tough decisions.


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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:32 am 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
Secondary coach Darren Perry is available and the Steelers have not gotten fair return from Lake as their secondary coach. Easy exchange...

As far as pass rusher development? Porter is a fucking joke. JMO

The fact that no defensive coaches were held accountable for allowing the jag offense led by blake fucking bortles responsible is a travesty and infuriating. Heads should have rolled.


No question, they are neglecting that side of the ball in many ways.
-Scouting and selecting draft prospects
-Developing the rookies and young defenders
-Player growth, improvement, smarts, performance and results after 2-3 years on team
-Game planning and defensive play calling
-Defensive scheme
-Putting players best attributes to use, putting players in best spot to succeed.
-Player on field confusion and mis-communication almost weekly for 2 years now.
-Sloppy tackling, missed assignments, blown coverages, un-inspired players going thru the motions, etc.
-That last line speaks of defensive players not being coached and prepared.

Look at the PS last five playoff games that sent them home for the season and you will see 5 games that the PS gave up an average of 32 points and 370 yards.

Since the "Easing-In" ( still a shocking comment ) vs. Green Bay in the SB the PS have given up.

31 to GB. Could have been much more if not for GB dropsies.
29 to Den and Timmy Tebow who I last saw on Chip and Joannes ( Hot ) "Fixer Upper" show.
30 to Balt and Joe Flacco and a cast of offensive player that featured one prowl bowl level skill player.......and that was a 35 year old S. Smith
23 to Denver as they dragged "Weekend at Peytons" thru the game and rest of those playoffs
36 to NE and Brady last year. Could have been much more, easily 40+
45 to Jax and Bortles. Only 38 if you want to take away the Ben fumble. Only 35 if you take away the onside kick that led to a cheap FG. ONLY 35.

Let them continue to point fingers at the players, as to why this defense continues to fail and ignore the list of items above.
And they will continue to fail.

This is all Tomlins defense. 100 %.
He is a defensive coach.
He supposingly was more involved with the defense this year. Defensive meetings, play calling, etc.

Tomlin, Butler, J. Mitchell, Porter, Lake, Jerry O.......
Who is making a difference on that side of the ball?

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 Post subject: Re: Starkey nails it on Dud Dupree
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:55 am 
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StillerInCT wrote:
86n96 wrote:
Worilds absolutely fucked this team when he retired. The fact that Colbert can't draft a pass rusher to save his life doesn't help, either. Unless I'm mistaken, in 17 years, Colbert has drafted exactly 2 serviceable starters at OLB: Haggans and Woodley. That's fucking horrible. I mean, I guess you could give him credit for bringing Debo in, but that was more Harrison's agent leveraging him onto the roster because Cowher wanted another client of his. IMO, Tomlin and Colbert should both be gone. The Superbowl equity has expired.


It's hard to blame Colbert for this. Colbert has put together the best offense in the league. He also nailed the Heyward and Shazier picks. Found guys like AB, V Will, and Jesse James in the bottom rounds. The problem is and always has been our inability to coach up players on the defensive side of the ball. Particularly at OLB and in the secondary.

Clark Haggans. I'll be fair, though. Colbert is the WR whisperer. We have insane value on the outside.

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