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 Post subject: Re: Jesse James was more of a TD than Ertz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:42 pm 
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Zeke5123 wrote:
I've explained it numerous times. I've posted the language of the rule. All you have done is say "Nope." Care to post the rule and explain how it wasn't a catch? I know you won't but Ill be waiting.


He does not maintain possession of the ball because it hit the fucking ground.

EDIT:

TB answered this for me...

Quote:
From page 31 of the official NFL rulebook:

Item 1. Player Going to the Ground. A player is considered to be going to the ground if he does not remain upright long
enough to demonstrate that he is clearly a runner. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without
contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, whether in the field of
play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is
incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

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 Post subject: Re: Jesse James Catch was a TD as was Ertz Catch
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:44 pm 
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TB wrote:
From page 31 of the official NFL rulebook:

Quote:
Item 1. Player Going to the Ground. A player is considered to be going to the ground if he does not remain upright long
enough to demonstrate that he is clearly a runner. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without
contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, whether in the field of
play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is
incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.


James didn't stay upright enough to demonstrate he was a runner, was considered a "player going to the ground," lost control of the ball with it touching the ground before he regained control.

By rule, it was incomplete.

Now, whether the rule should be changed is a completely different argument.


You missed the key word initial. James had a push off from his knee. That should satisfy the rule. You also forgot the issue of burden of proof. The question isn't whether you think it is a catch, or that James did not make enough of a move to establish being runner. The burden is irrefutable evidence. Given that the rule is subjective, unless it is clear cut (i.e., the player hits the ground on initial contact and the ball pops out), presumably you must go with the subjective judgment on the field. That is to say, you respect the burden of proof.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesse James Catch was a TD as was Ertz Catch
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:44 pm 
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People somehow don't see james make a move after his initial contact with the ground it's hilarious how they tow the party line bc that's what Romo said or whatever.

Anyway the sound of Pats fans complaining about calls in a loss for once is going to sound like sweet music.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesse James was more of a TD than Ertz
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:45 pm 
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fortythree wrote:
Zeke5123 wrote:
I've explained it numerous times. I've posted the language of the rule. All you have done is say "Nope." Care to post the rule and explain how it wasn't a catch? I know you won't but Ill be waiting.


He does not maintain possession of the ball because it hit the fucking ground.

EDIT:

TB answered this for me...

Quote:
From page 31 of the official NFL rulebook:

Item 1. Player Going to the Ground. A player is considered to be going to the ground if he does not remain upright long
enough to demonstrate that he is clearly a runner. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without
contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, whether in the field of
play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is
incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.


Yeah read my post above and my response to TB. He is wrong and isn't parsing the language well or accounting for the burden of proof.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesse James Catch was a TD as was Ertz Catch
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:45 pm 
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Miter Saw wrote:
People somehow don't see james make a move after his initial contact with the ground it's hilarious how they tow the party line bc that's what Romo said or whatever.

Anyway the sound of Pats fans complaining about calls in a loss for once is going to sound like sweet music.


I’ve already said I believe what James did WAS a catch.

But that the NFL Has NEVER RULED that a player that did what James did was establishing himself as a runner.

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 Post subject: Re: Jesse James Catch was a TD as was Ertz Catch
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:47 pm 
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Miter Saw wrote:
People somehow don't see james make a move after his initial contact with the ground it's hilarious how they tow the party line bc that's what Romo said or whatever.

Anyway the sound of Pats fans complaining about calls in a loss for once is going to sound like sweet music.


Yeah. It is truly amazing. On top of that, they completely ignore the burden of proof. 43 hates Jesse James for...reasons...so his argument here is largely agenda driven. I think everyone else was just toeing the line of NFL reporters, even though the NFL reporters also failed to parse the language or the video.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesse James Catch was a TD as was Ertz Catch
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:49 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
Miter Saw wrote:
People somehow don't see james make a move after his initial contact with the ground it's hilarious how they tow the party line bc that's what Romo said or whatever.

Anyway the sound of Pats fans complaining about calls in a loss for once is going to sound like sweet music.


I’ve already said I believe what James did WAS a catch.

But that the NFL Has NEVER RULED that a player that did what James did was establishing himself as a runner.


You have at least been consistent that you believe by letter it was a catch, but that the NFL has ruling precedent. Of course, you've acknowledged that precedent may not be as strong as you state. Nevertheless, I think you have been rather honest in the debate and haven't ignored comments. I've enjoyed the debate with you as a result.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesse James Catch was a TD as was Ertz Catch
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:03 am 
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The James call is still complete horseshit. We got rooked. Made a catch, made a football move, survived the initial contact with the ground. Broke the plane.

The big difference between James and Ertz’s catch was Ertz caught the bobble too. The ball is allowed to hit the ground if you have full control which Ertz did. Then it popped up and he still caught it.

You could argue they are different from that aspect too, if you want to go down the rabbit hole of he didn’t survive the ground.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesse James Catch was a TD as was Ertz Catch
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:13 am 
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Zeke5123 wrote:
Miter Saw wrote:
People somehow don't see james make a move after his initial contact with the ground it's hilarious how they tow the party line bc that's what Romo said or whatever.

Anyway the sound of Pats fans complaining about calls in a loss for once is going to sound like sweet music.


Yeah. It is truly amazing. On top of that, they completely ignore the burden of proof. 43 hates Jesse James for...reasons...so his argument here is largely agenda driven. I think everyone else was just toeing the line of NFL reporters, even though the NFL reporters also failed to parse the language or the video.


My agenda is reality driven. James stumbles all over himself and doesn't make a football move. The Ertz play tonight was not even remotely similar.

This is a fucking stupid thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Jesse James Catch was a TD as was Ertz Catch
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:13 am 
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fortythree wrote:
Zeke5123 wrote:
Miter Saw wrote:
People somehow don't see james make a move after his initial contact with the ground it's hilarious how they tow the party line bc that's what Romo said or whatever.

Anyway the sound of Pats fans complaining about calls in a loss for once is going to sound like sweet music.


Yeah. It is truly amazing. On top of that, they completely ignore the burden of proof. 43 hates Jesse James for...reasons...so his argument here is largely agenda driven. I think everyone else was just toeing the line of NFL reporters, even though the NFL reporters also failed to parse the language or the video.


My agenda is reality driven. James stumbles all over himself and doesn't make a football move. The Ertz play tonight was not even remotely similar.

This is a fucking stupid thread.


It is stupid mostly due to your contributions...


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 Post subject: Re: Jesse James Catch was a TD as was Ertz Catch
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:14 am 
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Zeke5123 wrote:
It is stupid mostly due to your contributions...


Says the guy who was already proven wrong and is now refusing to admit it.

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 Post subject: Re: Jesse James Catch was a TD as was Ertz Catch
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:19 am 
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fortythree wrote:
Zeke5123 wrote:
It is stupid mostly due to your contributions...


Says the guy who was already proven wrong and is now refusing to admit it.


You don't understand words. Like, for example the word "proven" or "wrong." It likely explains why you couldn't follow the words posted above. One again, feel free to make a cogent argument to the contrary, but making good arguments is outside your ability. Being snarky, on the other hand...


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 Post subject: Re: Jesse James Catch vs Ertz Catch
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:25 am 
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https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2018/2/4/1 ... super-bowl

Don’t agree, but thought I’d post to jar the memory of the video.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesse James was more of a TD than Ertz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:26 am 
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Jeemie wrote:
Ertz took three steps.

James didn’t.

They haven’t counted what James did as a football move since the rule was changed.


That's exactly right.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesse James Catch was a TD as was Ertz Catch
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:27 am 
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fortythree wrote:
Zeke5123 wrote:
It is stupid mostly due to your contributions...


Says the guy who was already proven wrong and is now refusing to admit it.



Listening to a former NFL Receiver (Colinsworth) and QB (Romo) plus Al Michaels who has watched more sporting events than maybe anyone get confused about how a catch is called should tell you that really nothing is “proven”.

That’s why there continues to be a debate...


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 Post subject: Re: Jesse James was more of a TD than Ertz
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:08 am 
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Zeke5123 wrote:
Jackie Chiles wrote:
Louis Lipps Service wrote:

Not at all. James was going down as he made the catch, which is exactly the case the rule was written for.

Ertz was freely running after the catch.

Yes. As dumb as the rule is James was not a runner and did not survive the ground as a catch. Ertz was a runner plain and simple.


Once again, far from clear that he was not a runner. The rule for becoming a runner is:

Quote:
A player has the ball long enough to become a runner when, after his second foot is on the ground, he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact of an opponent, tucking the ball away, turning up field, or taking additional steps


He both tucked and turned up field. Therefore, James completed this part of this catch rule.

The only thing added by going to the ground is, that in addition to the above, the receiver going to the ground

Quote:
... must maintain control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.



The initial contact was James' knee. James then pushed off that knee as he tried to go into the EZ. Thus, James survived initial contact.

Remember -- the replay booth must determine that James either did not (i) tuck it or turn up field OR (ii) not maintain control of the ball after his initial contact with the ground BASED ON IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE. I don't see how that was satisfied in the James' catch.


Zeke, you're completely misinterpreting this and missing the point.

To be considered a "runner" you actually have to be taking steps. The key part of the bolded above that you quoted is "taking additional steps." You can only take additional steps if you've taken steps to begin with. That is the intent. Catch, one step, two step, and then making what we call a football move (tucking the ball away, warding off a defender, turning upfield, or taking additional steps). You do that, you're a runner.

James took zero steps. He was falling to the ground onto his knees as he was attempting to make the catch. He was literally falling to the ground while the ball was still in the air. It doesn't matter if he tried to tuck it as he was going to the ground, or was lunging out with the football, by rule, he was going to the ground. He was not a runner. As such, he had to maintain control of the ball through the contact with the ground. He didn't control it, it hit the ground, it was not a catch by NFL rule. End of story.

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 Post subject: Re: Jesse James Catch was a TD as was Ertz Catch
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:28 am 
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ChippedHamSandwich wrote:
You guys seem to have all the answers when it comes to this.

You should apply with the NFL offices tomorrow morning, they could use some brainiacs.

Those two plays are incredibly similar, James even brought the ball into his chest before he extended.


not really similar. James never ran with the ball.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesse James Catch vs Ertz Catch
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:38 am 
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I’ll never forgive JJ for that play. He wasn’t touched. The doofus tripped over his own feet and still lost control of the ball going over the goal line in a must win game.


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 Post subject: Re: Jesse James Catch vs Ertz Catch
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:42 am 
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I started this thread because I'm a proud Homer sometimes. I grew up in the 70s and 80s when Jesse James Catch was undisputed, Before they started fucking with the rules. I think there is an argument to be made on both sides of Jesse James Catch, with the current rules. Also, I thought Ertz did not have as solid a hold on the ball as James did through the catch.

Whichever side you fall on, most of us agree that the rules about what make a Catch are fucked up. Roger Goodell himself talked directly about the Jesse James Catch recently:

Here's the full article:
https://247sports.com/nfl/pittsburgh-st ... -114369943


Last edited by Stallworth16 on Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:49 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Jesse James Catch vs Ertz Catch
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:47 am 
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Didnt read the entire thread, i thought it was obvious live..Ertz easily established himself as a runner, then dove and broke the plane while JJ the idiot didnt establish himself as a runner..


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