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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:25 pm 
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Suwanee88 wrote:
Lolley has been saying he expects Mitchell to be cut and Cam Sutton will be moved to Safety to take his place.

So, he's saying Sutton will play FS and they're going to keep Davis at SS? Just trying to understand, thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:36 am 
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DP39 wrote:
Suwanee88 wrote:
Lolley has been saying he expects Mitchell to be cut and Cam Sutton will be moved to Safety to take his place.

So, he's saying Sutton will play FS and they're going to keep Davis at SS? Just trying to understand, thanks.

According to Lolley’s latest article they are seriously considering the following:

-Cut Mitchell, saves $6M
-Move Sutton to FS. They want a coverage S vs. a hitter ( thank you God)
-This move gets their 5 best DB ‘s on the field in Nickel packages (Burns, Haden, Sutton, Davis, Hilton).......jury is out on Burns and Davis for me
-They are very high on Allen. Unique size, long arms, etc. They think he is potential starter
-They want to resign Wilcox on cheap
-If they do all of this, they won’t draft S high.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:56 am 
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Huh, well, I guess this isn't as big an issue as it used to be, but I wonder how Sutton will fare making open field tackles on a Fournette or Gronk? He must be a solid fuckin tackler in practice.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:13 am 
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If it was me I put Brian Allen back there at FS and leave Davis at SS. Sutton is a better boundary corner than a safety prospect IMO. The good thing about Sutton is he can slide inside as well But with Hilton covering the slot, Burns and Haden boundary, Sutton is a 'luxury' back up at this point. Instead of Sensabaugh/Gay playing for an injured corner now they'd have Sutton. Cut Gay, Cut Sensabaugh. I guess there's rumor they want to restructure Wilcox and bring him back. Still gotta draft a safety IMHO.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:35 am 
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Suwanee88 wrote:
DP39 wrote:
Suwanee88 wrote:
Lolley has been saying he expects Mitchell to be cut and Cam Sutton will be moved to Safety to take his place.

So, he's saying Sutton will play FS and they're going to keep Davis at SS? Just trying to understand, thanks.

According to Lolley’s latest article they are seriously considering the following:

-Cut Mitchell, saves $6M
-Move Sutton to FS. They want a coverage S vs. a hitter ( thank you God)
-This move gets their 5 best DB ‘s on the field in Nickel packages (Burns, Haden, Sutton, Davis, Hilton).......jury is out on Burns and Davis for me
-They are very high on Allen. Unique size, long arms, etc. They think he is potential starter
-They want to resign Wilcox on cheap
-If they do all of this, they won’t draft S high.

I can totally dig that.

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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:56 am 
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I think this works near term and allows them to eventually move Haden to FS and Sutton or Allen back to corner.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:53 pm 
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I think Burns can bounc back with coaching.

The big questionmark for me would still be Davis at safety. And you're hoping Cam, or perhaps Allen....or maybe Haden one day can play safety. But regardless I think you're still looking for a safety in R1 or R2.

You don't have to reach, but safety is still a big need (along with ILB, and probably OLB).

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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:05 pm 
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I don't know what to make of Lolley at times. Just this past week I heard him talk about what RB he would consider bringing in if the Steelers moved on from Bell. His top choice? DeMarco Murray. 30 years old, I just averaged 3.6 yards a carry last season DeMarco Murray. :roll:

I also listened to his thoughts on the Steelers TEs and he really didn't seem too impressed with Vance McDonald. I take what he has to say with a big grain of salt.

In terms of Bradley coming in as the new secondary coach and making some changes I am all for it.

Cam Sutton as a safety? Sure I can see that. Teams are trending more and more to having smaller, cornerback sized safeties that can cover.

Many here like LaMarcus Joyner, I do too.

Joyner is 5'8" 185 pounds.
Rodney McCloud, his predecessor, went to the Eagles in free agency, and he is 5'11" 185
Marcus Gilcrest, 5'10" 195
Devin McCourty is 5'10" 185
Ricardo Allen, 5'9" 187
Tyrann Mathieu, 5'9" 186
Andre Hal, 5'10" 188

That is a group of players that have produced some Pro Bowls and quality play the past few years. None of them are any bigger, faster than Cam Sutton (5'11" 188). They are all CB sized, some played CB, some started out as inside slot CBs, but their teams found a way to maximize their talent and weren't afraid to put them at safety. If other teams can do this, I just showed nearly one-fourth of NFL teams have a small CB sized starting safety, then why can't we?

Because our 3-4 defense dictates that we ONLY have certain body types? That they have to be over 6 feet tall? That they have to weigh 205, 215, 220? Why is that?

This is what is so fatiguing for me about our 3-4 defense. It is like we have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the modern NFL. It seems like we are late to the party at every turn.

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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:08 pm 
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Gotta turn that oil tanker!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:35 pm 
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Damn straight!!!

But seriously, B2B, is any of this familiar?

I was told that expecting pass rush/sacks from our DEs was looney tunes. I argued why can't we expect double digit sacks from one of our defensive linemen? No, I was told, it is their job to hold the line, occupy blockers, blah, blah, blah. Yet there was Cam Heyward with 12 sacks this past year and if he hadn't been held out of the Cleveland game? He may have added two more sacks!!

I was told that we couldn't have a different type of NT, that we needed another Hampton type who is strictly a run stuffer. Yet we finally get Javon Hargrave who can be that more penetrating, quicker NT and get more pressure up the middle against the QB.

There are always so many CBs that are smaller or Ss that are smaller and we pass on them, not a fit, etc. You look at Mike Hilton and now, who knows maybe Cam Sutton does become a starter or at the very least the 3rd safety who plays say, 40% of the snaps in sub packages. Those two players might end up being the best players in the secondary. But traditionally we overlook those players, we are always looking for bigger, taller, etc.

LBers. Why can't we have more 215-220 pound linebackers on the team? Former safeties in college, or just small safety sized linebackers, who cares? If they can play and have talent then draft them and use them. I am always told, that guy isn't a Steeler type, too small, not tall enough, doesn't weigh 240-250, etc. Not your typical 3-4 OLB, etc. How will that player fit in our 3-4 scheme? Blah, Blah, Blah.

Imagine you have this pie that represents the defensive players in the draft. The Steelers come up and cut a small slice and put it on their plate. That slice is maybe 15% of that pie and there is no going back for seconds. That small slice is representative of the players that they feel comfortable with in their 3-4 scheme. That is the way it feels to me at times, like we limit ourselves, and that the rest of the NFL teams continue to go back to that pie for a second slice and a third slice because they are not so rigid and inflexible with their defenses.

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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2018 11:30 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
Damn straight!!!

But seriously, B2B, is any of this familiar?

I was told that expecting pass rush/sacks from our DEs was looney tunes. I argued why can't we expect double digit sacks from one of our defensive linemen? No, I was told, it is their job to hold the line, occupy blockers, blah, blah, blah. Yet there was Cam Heyward with 12 sacks this past year and if he hadn't been held out of the Cleveland game? He may have added two more sacks!!

I was told that we couldn't have a different type of NT, that we needed another Hampton type who is strictly a run stuffer. Yet we finally get Javon Hargrave who can be that more penetrating, quicker NT and get more pressure up the middle against the QB.

There are always so many CBs that are smaller or Ss that are smaller and we pass on them, not a fit, etc. You look at Mike Hilton and now, who knows maybe Cam Sutton does become a starter or at the very least the 3rd safety who plays say, 40% of the snaps in sub packages. Those two players might end up being the best players in the secondary. But traditionally we overlook those players, we are always looking for bigger, taller, etc.

LBers. Why can't we have more 215-220 pound linebackers on the team? Former safeties in college, or just small safety sized linebackers, who cares? If they can play and have talent then draft them and use them. I am always told, that guy isn't a Steeler type, too small, not tall enough, doesn't weigh 240-250, etc. Not your typical 3-4 OLB, etc. How will that player fit in our 3-4 scheme? Blah, Blah, Blah.

Imagine you have this pie that represents the defensive players in the draft. The Steelers come up and cut a small slice and put it on their plate. That slice is maybe 15% of that pie and there is no going back for seconds. That small slice is representative of the players that they feel comfortable with in their 3-4 scheme. That is the way it feels to me at times, like we limit ourselves, and that the rest of the NFL teams continue to go back to that pie for a second slice and a third slice because they are not so rigid and inflexible with their defenses.

The Jags are in our conference and they ran over us twice. It's nice to move into the 21st century with smaller faster defensive backs and Dlinemen whose primary job is to rush the passer rather than stop the run. But ironically, if we had the big run stuffing Dlinemen that we had in days of yore, if we had the big LB's that we had in days of yore, if we had the big safeties like we had in days of yore, maybe we stop Fournette. Can we field these smaller faster players you want and still stop the run?

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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:25 am 
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But we do have those big players, isn't Bud Dupree 250-255, TJ Watt 252? Vince Williams 250?

And we have pretty big safeties, Mitchell is probably closer to 220. Size doesn't mean a damn thing.

Jax has an OLB in Telvin Smith that is 218 pounds, a DE in Ngakoue that is only 250 pounds. Again, size doesn't mean a thing.

Stopping the run doesn't concern me as much because of the dominos that fell last season. It really was a perfect storm of events. Mitchell clearly was done as a player, Tuitt played injured the whole season with that weakened arm, Hargrave the same with his back, Haden with his fibula and missing those 5 games, and then Shazier going down and Sean Spence being inadequate as a replacement. I don't expect all of that to continue going into 2018. Just the subtraction of Mitchell and Spence and youthful rookies or young players added will instantly upgrade the run defense.

But this is a passing league, at the end of the day you have to stop the pass. I don't think the plan is to bring back Blitzburg with our OLBs being the focal point of the pass rush. I don't think last season them dropping Dupree and Watt into coverage so much was just because of circumstance, that was the plan. And I think they are only going to continue to do that, there has been a seismic shift in terms of what the team wants to do with the pass rush.

Yeah, crazy old Scunge with his dreams of a 4-3 but I think one of the reasons why they quietly demoted (my words) John Mitchell and hired Karl Dunbar was because they know that the key to getting more pass rush is from the other defensive linemen. Hargrave and Tuitt can easily join Heyward as legitimate pass rushers, as double digit sack men too.

Mitchell was not getting it done, Tuitt and Hargrave have talent but needed somebody like Dunbar to get them to the next level of their development. I think Dunbar is going to do for the defensive linemen what Mike Munchak did for the offensive line.

Again, I see a shift to a new type of defense that is getting more and more away from the 3-4 Dick LeBeau defense. More man to man coverage? Yeah. Our OLBs dropping more into coverage, in essence playing more like 4-3 OLBs? Yeah. Our defensive linemen not just occupying blocks but actually making plays, creating pressure, getting sacks? Yeah.

Taking chances on smaller players like a Mike Hilton? Yeah. Sorry but I see change and I see them changing this defense before my eyes but I am impatient and think that the 3-4 base is just hindering and slowing down the development of our players.

I just can't help but remember watching the Seattle defense of the 80s when Kieth Butler was their ILB. They used their defensive line to get the pass rush, their 3 starters combined for some 200 sacks, all 3 made the Pro Bowl, even their NT got 7, 8, 9 sacks in a season. Sure looks to me like Butler is trying to do a back to the future and trying to replicate that same thing here in Pittsburgh.

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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:01 am 
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The Steelers have the most patient owner/management in professional sports (maybe the Bengals rival). It can be a good trait but they are unbalanced to say the least - no sense of urgency.

Ben has saved their asses IMO.

This league has been changing for years and our defensive style is closer to 1997 NFL vs 2017.

It’s still all talk at this point. I’ll believe it when I see it.

Regarding the Lolley pop......I’ve noticed when these guys cover the Rooney’s as long as some of these guys have (Lolley, Bouchette), they begin thinking like them, talking like them , quack quack quack fucking quack.

That’s why I enjoy Madden sometimes.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:30 am 
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I am one of those guys Scunge, you talked about in your post. I prefer the taller, bigger players. My logic is the taller a guy the more length he'll have. That's why I'd certainly look at Allen back at FS. Never mind the fact that Allen played Corner in college and weighs 215-ish. I guess it's a lot to ask for that size, strength, speed, athleticism and length all in one athlete. There seems to be more of those smaller guys [5'11-5'8] that fit 3 of those 5 listed. Strength, speed and athleticism. Davis is 6'1 202, Mitchell is 6'1 221. Davis is really no bigger than a prototypical CB in today's NFL. Anyway, I get what you're saying. Put the best player on the field and scheme him to be more successful. Regardless of stature.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:32 am 
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I believe playing Sutton at S is more about football IQ than anything (while still being talented enough, of course). I think he has that in spades. My guess is Gay (highest FB IQ in the room) probably even vouched for Sutton's IQ after spending last year with him in the room/field. On top of Mitchell's declining physical skills, I don't think he's as FB smart as he thinks/acts like he is. I really like the idea of Cam's read and react on the back end of the D where he can make a big difference in splash plays and help line up other DBs to do the same. I had heard that Davis was supposed to be somewhat intelligent (as FB players go), so it will be interesting to see if he's smarter a year later and without Mitchell out there.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:22 pm 
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DP39 wrote:
I believe playing Sutton at S is more about football IQ than anything (while still being talented enough, of course). I think he has that in spades. My guess is Gay (highest FB IQ in the room) probably even vouched for Sutton's IQ after spending last year with him in the room/field. On top of Mitchell's declining physical skills, I don't think he's as FB smart as he thinks/acts like he is. I really like the idea of Cam's read and react on the back end of the D where he can make a big difference in splash plays and help line up other DBs to do the same. I had heard that Davis was supposed to be somewhat intelligent (as FB players go), so it will be interesting to see if he's smarter a year later and without Mitchell out there.


New England moved Devin McCourty to FS and he has been a pro bowler for them ever since.

Could Cam Sutton be that guy? It would be great to get him on the field ASAP as that guy.... I get worried about his injury history though. he was banged up at Tenesee and moving him inside could expose him to punishment.

That said, he looks great with the ball in his hands with the KR background. That kind of playmaking hasnt been on the field since Polomalu.

Putting Sutton at FS means we need to bring in a big guy to play Dime/$Backer and then another new developmental corner for the pipeline. Both could be done without spending a 1st or 2nd rounder so it seems like the plan

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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:03 pm 
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MeanJustinBarlow wrote:
DP39 wrote:
I believe playing Sutton at S is more about football IQ than anything (while still being talented enough, of course). I think he has that in spades. My guess is Gay (highest FB IQ in the room) probably even vouched for Sutton's IQ after spending last year with him in the room/field. On top of Mitchell's declining physical skills, I don't think he's as FB smart as he thinks/acts like he is. I really like the idea of Cam's read and react on the back end of the D where he can make a big difference in splash plays and help line up other DBs to do the same. I had heard that Davis was supposed to be somewhat intelligent (as FB players go), so it will be interesting to see if he's smarter a year later and without Mitchell out there.


New England moved Devin McCourty to FS and he has been a pro bowler for them ever since.

Could Cam Sutton be that guy? It would be great to get him on the field ASAP as that guy.... I get worried about his injury history though. he was banged up at Tenesee and moving him inside could expose him to punishment.

That said, he looks great with the ball in his hands with the KR background. That kind of playmaking hasnt been on the field since Polomalu.

Putting Sutton at FS means we need to bring in a big guy to play Dime/$Backer and then another new developmental corner for the pipeline. Both could be done without spending a 1st or 2nd rounder so it seems like the plan


Brian Allen could be that guy.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 4:41 pm 
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Stillcajun wrote:
Brian Allen could be that guy.


Agreed. But IMO that still leaves PIT short a safety - Davis may have been worse than Mitchell.

A safety, ILB and maybe an OLB is what this defense needs to be top-5(?) Looking at the supposed talent on defense, even without Shazier, why were they so bad against JAX?

For people who don't want to point fingers at coaches, I'm going to argue the defense had at least as much talent as half the teams in the league.

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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:39 pm 
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Tomlin likes to break out the chronic with his homies during game prep, if they're playing a team he deems inferior. This leads to 'playing down to your opponent'... In short, Jax caught them with a stoneover both times.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:27 am 
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Some good points of debate for Davis to FS from another site 'armchair' talent evaluator and GM. What says Fury armchair evaluators/GM's?

Quote:
this move might be a godsend for Davis. He is the worst cover guy on the Steelers but every other part of his game is solid. Also he’s smart and disciplined (the things Mike Mitchell is NOT). Even though he played SS in college he was the play caller for the secondary. With his eyes toward the QB and only being asked to help on double teams he might turn into an All Pro at the position. He’s got the speed to cover a lot of area. If the Steelers were smart they’d make former Free Safety, now NFL Live analyst, Ryan Clark, a training camp coaching intern. Ryan is a text book example of how to play the position. Troy wouldn’t have been able to be Troy without Ryan taking up the slack and allowing Troy to freelance. Ryan could be a great mentor for Sean in making this move http://www.pittsburgh-blitz.com/armchai ... ee-safety/


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:50 am 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
Some good points of debate for Davis to FS from another site 'armchair' talent evaluator and GM. What says Fury armchair evaluators/GM's?

Quote:
this move might be a godsend for Davis. He is the worst cover guy on the Steelers but every other part of his game is solid. Also he’s smart and disciplined (the things Mike Mitchell is NOT). Even though he played SS in college he was the play caller for the secondary. With his eyes toward the QB and only being asked to help on double teams he might turn into an All Pro at the position. He’s got the speed to cover a lot of area. If the Steelers were smart they’d make former Free Safety, now NFL Live analyst, Ryan Clark, a training camp coaching intern. Ryan is a text book example of how to play the position. Troy wouldn’t have been able to be Troy without Ryan taking up the slack and allowing Troy to freelance. Ryan could be a great mentor for Sean in making this move http://www.pittsburgh-blitz.com/armchai ... ee-safety/


I'm two arms short of an armchair (sofa as a ceiling, a wrist-circumference nightmare, and have been called difficult to coach), but I endorse all of the above, including the assessment of Clark as Troy's security blanket during his salad days. I'm sure he expresses himself too much for some, but it'd be an ideal mentoring situation. On the other hand, Lake was a Pro Bowler at SS and CB, and the results have been shaky at best, so who knows?


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:22 am 
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Scunge wrote:
This hasn't happened yet so fingers crossed. I was expecting both to happen and to happen pretty quickly before the March frenzy started.

When you factor in the cost of say a first or second round pick safety (either a $1 million cap hit, or a $750K cap hit) and the cost of a low draft pick/UDFA ($555K cap hit), that combined $8.125 million from cutting Mitchell and Wilcox comes out to the $6.5 million neighborhood in terms of true cap space created.

I know people will beat that tired old drum that they did this so that they can sign Bell or have the money needed to franchise Bell, but I think there are other considerations too.

Rosie Nix and Chris Boswell and maybe Chris Hubbard (?).

They just gave Rosie a 4 year contract. It was 4 years for $7 million (6.975 million to be precise). That makes him the 4th highest paid FB in the NFL. I think he is easily a Pro Bowl quality special teams player and has a chance to be a multi-dimensional FB who can block and also run and catch, be more involved in the offense.

Boswell, easily one of the best place kickers in the NFL right now. I think the Steelers reward him and he is given a nice new contact. How much? The top 4 contracts are for $16, 16, 17 and 22 million. I am thinking that they give Boz a 4 year $17-18 million contract.

Hubbard. Gilbert only has 2 years left on his deal and became injury prone again, and also was suspended for 4 games for performance enhancing drugs. AND was also grumbling about not being paid enough. Hmmm. As much as l love Gilbert when he is healthy and starting, that is a lot of uncertainty. The NFL is tough and the tackle position even more so, we have a great trio in Big Al, Gilbert and Hubbard. Maybe they keep Hubbard and phase out Gilbert after this year? Maybe Hubbard resigns if he thinks he can be the starter by 2019? I am thinking he might get 4 years $18-20 million.

That $6.5 million in cap space created by cutting Wilcox and Mitchell could be used to give Rosie Nix, Chris Boswell and Chris Hubbard new contracts.


Don't see any way we bring back Chris Hubbard, He will command more money and playing time elsewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:43 am 
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The longer this goes, the more I keep thinking that he won't be released.

Mitchell needs to be sent on his way. The sooner the better.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell and Wilcox expected to be released
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:11 pm 
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I don't think he is going to be released but renegotiated
They are letting him see what he can get before some deadline when he signs the new deal or leaves


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