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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:45 am 
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randomsteelerfan wrote:
Steelafan77 wrote:
Here's the thing for all those who wish to poke the forum bears. For Eon's the steelers stood by and watched as other teams feasted in FA. It worked out at the time. As was stated in an earlier post for the last 2 years the Steelers have been active in FA. I think the modern NFL requires a stable of veteran players and rookies. I still like the idea of building through the draft. I have never been a fan of standing by while they take 2-3 even 4 years to develop talent when there was available reasonably priced veteran talent [as we've seen] they could have signed. If that's considered bitching and complaining than I stand guilty. One thing I haven't seen mentioned. Perhaps it was cause I haven't taken the time to read through the 5 pages. Both Bostic and Burnett are Solid Wrap Up Tacklers. Known for missing Very Few Tackles throughout their careers. That is worth those FA dollars right there. Perhaps they can teach several current defensive players how to Tackle right.


The reality is that prior to moving into Heinz they didn’t have the dollars to spend in FA. That was mitigated by good drafting. Then, from 2001 to 2011, they had a loaded roster and didn’t necessarily needgo outside the organization. Since turning the roster in 2011, poor drafts and injuries have forced their hand.

The Steelers approach FA the right way. Fill areas of need with value and pay your draftees well.

However, this only works when you draft well. Hence, the need to dip into FA recently.


For the Steelers and many other teams, FA is a way to make up for bad/missed draft picks. Because the Steelers have drafted at the bottom end for so long it is not surprising that they need to dip into FA. That they have to be careful with their money is also an element of drafting good players.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:46 am 
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We can talk about the Steelers being active the last couple years in FA, but please don’t include Joe Haden in that because he fell to us by lucky chance just before last season began.

Steelers were perfectly content to go into 2017 with the dreck they had in the secondary until Cleveland unexpectedly let Haden go.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:45 am 
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Excellent discussion. The other thing we have not really talked about is once LeBeau left the Steelers staff saw it beneficial to have rookies on the field earlier than the 2-4 year understudy program that was implemented before. I think that is a much better approach as well. I also think the reason we're seeing them 'dip' into FA more is because of the 'Win Now' mentality that we often quote here. Ben is going to be around for a few more seasons. Why not 'dip' into FA if there is a likely chance that player can contribute now versus a rookie getting up to NFL speed in a season or two.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:22 am 
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Scunge wrote:
Yeah, we are signing the 29 year old Burnett but don't under estimate his athleticism. This might be the best coverage safety that we have had in a long time. GB was not afraid to line him up over TEs, WRs, and RBs and he did very well in coverage over the years.

How athletic was he coming out of college? He did not work out at the combine that year outside of doing reps, he only had a Pro Day workout.

He was 6'1" 209 pounds, ran a 4.51 40, 16 reps, had a 39.5 inch vertical, 11'08" broad jump, 3.92 shuttle and 6.87 3 cone.

So, that 3.92 short shuttle time? No safety at this year's combine cracked 4.0.

His 6.87 3 cone time would have been the 5th best for Safeties at the combine this year.

That 39.5 vertical would have placed him 6th among safeties.

That 11 foot 8 inch broad jump is huge and would have placed him first at the combine, a full 6 inches more than Terrell Edmunds.

Yeah, underwear Olympics and all but Burnett came into the NFL with impressive physical traits, some that were elite for the position.

Some of the things that I like about him is that he is almost the antithesis of Mike Mitchell. Mike may be looking to make the monster hit and will throw his shoulder into a WR whereas Burnett is more of a fundamentally sound tackler that first and foremost wants to stop the player, to tackle the WR/TE/RB. Burnett can play anywhere and everywhere, can play the run and the pass, can play FS, SS and has even lined up as a hybrid linebacker.

It is funny but they have been looking for a hybrid S/LB defender, have visited a lot of Pro Days the past couple seasons, but nothing really ever materialized. Now they have signed a player in free agency that can allow them to do so many more things on defense. This signing doesn't just help the safety group but it also in a way helps make up for the loss of Shazier in terms of pass coverage. I can easily see them doing more big nickel, having 3 safeties and Burnett being that 3rd safety that lines up and moves around and does some of the things that we asked of Shazier. If they still draft a safety in round 1 or 2 it would make it easier for them to do just that.

And from the perspective of having a young Sean Davis and a rookie 1st or 2nd rounder and giving them somebody to look up to, to learn from, in how to conduct themselves both on and off the field? Huge. Burnett shits all over Mike Mitchell in that regard too. Mitchell's trash talking, his shenanigans before the Jax playoff game, that stuff was just so bush league. I am pretty certain that is what punched his ticket out of Pittsburgh as much as anything else. That had to sting the Rooneys and Tomlin. You are supposed to be the leader of the secondary and you pull crap like that? In Burnett they have a real Pro's Pro who will be a proper mentor and leader of our secondary.



great, informative post scunge.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:17 am 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
Excellent discussion. The other thing we have not really talked about is once LeBeau left the Steelers staff saw it beneficial to have rookies on the field earlier than the 2-4 year understudy program that was implemented before. I think that is a much better approach as well. I also think the reason we're seeing them 'dip' into FA more is because of the 'Win Now' mentality that we often quote here. Ben is going to be around for a few more seasons. Why not 'dip' into FA if there is a likely chance that player can contribute now versus a rookie getting up to NFL speed in a season or two.


Yes, it's beneficial to get younger when the D sucks anyway. But it might not be beneficial when the D is one of the best in the league for years.

Don't get me wrong, 77... I'm good with simplifying the defense and getting young (talented) players on the field sooner. Just sayin' I have a difficult time with the argument if the D is playing at a high level.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:41 am 
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best part of this is .. I was wrong. I thought they were going to Mitchell back on the cheap.
For a number of reasons, Mitchell needs to be gone-gone -- not back as a back-up either.
Burnett cant be worse than Mitchell so this is good news. Injury concerns me a bit here and lack of Plays/INTs, but I do like the write ups on field leadership and intelligence as this D Desperately needs that -- professionalism, intelligence and bad demeanor


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:54 am 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
Excellent discussion. The other thing we have not really talked about is once LeBeau left the Steelers staff saw it beneficial to have rookies on the field earlier than the 2-4 year understudy program that was implemented before. I think that is a much better approach as well. I also think the reason we're seeing them 'dip' into FA more is because of the 'Win Now' mentality that we often quote here. Ben is going to be around for a few more seasons. Why not 'dip' into FA if there is a likely chance that player can contribute now versus a rookie getting up to NFL speed in a season or two.

Regarding the bolded, that's because it's not true.

Lebeau came back in 2004. Troy was inserted as a starter that season (his 2nd). Chris Hope and Larry Foote were also named starters that season (their 3rd, after being mid-round picks in 2002). Bryant McFadden, Ricardo Colclough, and Anthony Smith were the only defensive players taken in the first 4 rounds between 2004 - 2006. McFadden saw ample playing time in his 2nd season (he was behind 2 quality corners in Taylor & Townsend), Smith was the full time starter in year 2 (unfortunately), and Colclough just sucked.

In 2007, we took Timmons and Woodley. Woodley was starting in year #2. Timmons was a project who was being groomed as the replacement for Farrior, but he kept producing at an All Pro level. Timmons still saw plenty of playing time in packages, and had 7 and 5 sacks in 2008 and 2009, respectively.

Ziggy Hood started the majority of games in his 2nd season.

Between 2004 - 2012, the Steelers had a top 10 defense every year (by yardage). They were top 5 every year but 2006; and they were #1 five times.

In the final few years poor drafting, stale coaching, and holding onto vets too long finally caught up to them, and that's why Lebeau was let go. However, young players saw plenty of playing time during his tenure. Plus, why would mid/late round picks be thrust into playing when the D was performing at an elite level?

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:55 am 
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Havoc wrote:

Yes, it's beneficial to get younger when the D sucks anyway. But it might not be beneficial when the D is one of the best in the league for years.

Don't get me wrong, 77... I'm good with simplifying the defense and getting young (talented) players on the field sooner. Just sayin' I have a difficult time with the argument if the D is playing at a high level.



Well, there is one huge issue with the Lebeau mentorship program. In a lot of cases we had no idea how good that player was before it was C2 time because they never got the opportunity to play outside of injury if they were behind a competent starter.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:55 am 
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Jeemie wrote:
We can talk about the Steelers being active the last couple years in FA, but please don’t include Joe Haden in that because he fell to us by lucky chance just before last season began.

Steelers were perfectly content to go into 2017 with the dreck they had in the secondary until Cleveland unexpectedly let Haden go.

Yep - which is bat shit crazy


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:59 am 
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Jeemie that makes no sense. Haden just fell into our laps? They still had to convince him to come to Pittsburgh, still offered him a 3 year $27 million contract. They could have tried to lowball him, or try and sign him for a one year prove it deal, instead they gave him a $9 million per season deal.

Say what you want, spin it however you want but Colbert and the Steelers, from December 2016 to August 2017 did this:

Signed Mike Hilton.
Signed Tyson Alualu in free agency from Jax.
Signed Coty Sensabaugh from the Giants.
Signed Justin Hunter from Buffalo.
Signed Kniles Davis from KC.
Signed Kameron Canaday.
Traded for Vance McDonald from the 49ers.
Traded Sammie Coates to Cleveland.
Took that 6th round pick from Cleveland and traded for JJ Wilcox from Tampa Bay.
Traded Ross Cockrell to the Giants for a 7th rounder.
Signed Joe Haden after he was cut from Cleveland.

Now yeah, not every one of those players worked out but the Steelers were more active in free agency, in trading picks, in making trades then in any other year that I can remember.

Hilton, Alualu, Canaday, McDonald, Haden were all very good signings.

And now in 2018 they have signed an ILB in Jon Bostic and a S in Morgan Burnett. And maybe they are not done yet. Maybe later in the year they pick up some other player, maybe trade future picks for a player like they did with Wilcox and McDonald last year.

I see all of the bitching about the Steelers not being more aggressive in free agency and in trading for players. Are you guys serious? Are you not paying attention?

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:02 pm 
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Gonzo wrote:
best part of this is .. I was wrong. I thought they were going to Mitchell back on the cheap.
For a number of reasons, Mitchell needs to be gone-gone -- not back as a back-up either.
Burnett cant be worse than Mitchell so this is good news. Injury concerns me a bit here and lack of Plays/INTs, but I do like the write ups on field leadership and intelligence as this D Desperately needs that -- professionalism, intelligence and bad demeanor

It’s interesting. I keep hearing many local media saying that despite Burnett signing, they still have plans to move Sutton to S and now Davis is the backup. I wouldn’t mind this at all!

It’s going to be real intriguing to see what they do in round 1. Many expecting an ILB....not too sure. I could see a shocker.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:06 pm 
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Pabst wrote:
Steelafan77 wrote:
Excellent discussion. The other thing we have not really talked about is once LeBeau left the Steelers staff saw it beneficial to have rookies on the field earlier than the 2-4 year understudy program that was implemented before. I think that is a much better approach as well. I also think the reason we're seeing them 'dip' into FA more is because of the 'Win Now' mentality that we often quote here. Ben is going to be around for a few more seasons. Why not 'dip' into FA if there is a likely chance that player can contribute now versus a rookie getting up to NFL speed in a season or two.

Regarding the bolded, that's because it's not true.

Lebeau came back in 2004. Troy was inserted as a starter that season (his 2nd). Chris Hope and Larry Foote were also named starters that season (their 3rd, after being mid-round picks in 2002). Bryant McFadden, Ricardo Colclough, and Anthony Smith were the only defensive players taken in the first 4 rounds between 2004 - 2006. McFadden saw ample playing time in his 2nd season (he was behind 2 quality corners in Taylor & Townsend), Smith was the full time starter in year 2 (unfortunately), and Colclough just sucked.

In 2007, we took Timmons and Woodley. Woodley was starting in year #2. Timmons was a project who was being groomed as the replacement for Farrior, but he kept producing at an All Pro level. Timmons still saw plenty of playing time in packages, and had 7 and 5 sacks in 2008 and 2009, respectively.

Ziggy Hood started the majority of games in his 2nd season.

Between 2004 - 2012, the Steelers had a top 10 defense every year (by yardage). They were top 5 every year but 2006; and they were #1 five times.

In the final few years poor drafting, stale coaching, and holding onto vets too long finally caught up to them, and that's why Lebeau was let go. However, young players saw plenty of playing time during his tenure. Plus, why would mid/late round picks be thrust into playing when the D was performing at an elite level?


Good post, Pabst

One of the best units in the league for years along with 2 rings to validate it.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:14 pm 
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I thought it was more than a few years ago Art really pointed out the need for the Rookies especially on the defense side to get up to speed and get into the lineup much earlier than in the past.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:25 pm 
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Yeah, I don't see how anything Pabst wrote which disproves what Steelafan77 wrote.

Brett Keisel, didn't he take 4 years to become a starter?

Jason Worilds didn't become a starter until his 4th year.

Keenan Lewis didn't become a starter until his 4th year.

The point is that we weren't getting good value on our investments. You draft a player and then as the GM, Colbert has no idea what he has in that player 3 years later?

We had fallen behind the rest of the NFL. Other teams draft rookies on defense and start them IMMEDIATELY!!!

They get great production from their rookie draft picks IMMEDIATELY!!!

Meanwhile, under LeBeau we were dicking around, taking our sweet old time, acting as if it were pre-1993. Meaning that their was no free agency and that we had no danger of losing players. We had an antiquated system under LeBeau that was not sustainable and was actually competitively disadvantageous to us.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:14 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
Yeah, I don't see how anything Pabst wrote which disproves what Steelafan77 wrote.

Brett Keisel, didn't he take 4 years to become a starter?

Jason Worilds didn't become a starter until his 4th year.

Keenan Lewis didn't become a starter until his 4th year.

The point is that we weren't getting good value on our investments. You draft a player and then as the GM, Colbert has no idea what he has in that player 3 years later?

We had fallen behind the rest of the NFL. Other teams draft rookies on defense and start them IMMEDIATELY!!!

They get great production from their rookie draft picks IMMEDIATELY!!!

Meanwhile, under LeBeau we were dicking around, taking our sweet old time, acting as if it were pre-1993. Meaning that their was no free agency and that we had no danger of losing players. We had an antiquated system under LeBeau that was not sustainable and was actually competitively disadvantageous to us.


77 stated that there was a 2-4 year waiting period for rookies under Lebeau. I responded by listing several players who were starting by year 2, or seeing significant playing time. That....most definitely disproves the point. That doesn't mean that no players were ever forced to wait. And regarding those guys you listed.....

Should Keisel have been starting over Kimo and Aaron Smith? He was a 7th round pick, missed his first year due to a shoulder injury, and he was behind two All-Pro quality DEs. Oh, and the Steelers were #1 in run defense - why would Keisel be starting in that situation? He was used (effectively) in 2005 as a wave/situational player.

Worilds was drafted in 2010 when Harrison and Woodley were still performing at an All-Pro level (Harrison made the Pro Bowl in 2011, Woodley had 9 sacks in 10 games in 2011). And Worilds still started 10 games in spot duty over his first 3 seasons.

Keenan Lewis just wasn't very good (plus the Steelers had the #1 pass defense in 2011, the year prior to him being named the starter). And he was known as a locker room cancer, for whatever that's worth.

Quote:
We had fallen behind the rest of the NFL. Other teams draft rookies on defense and start them IMMEDIATELY!!!

Newsflash: Most of those rookies suck, and most of those teams suck. And that's without even factoring in that the Steelers haven't drafted in the top 15 since 2007.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:25 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
Yeah, I don't see how anything Pabst wrote which disproves what Steelafan77 wrote.

Brett Keisel, didn't he take 4 years to become a starter?

Jason Worilds didn't become a starter until his 4th year.

Keenan Lewis didn't become a starter until his 4th year.

The point is that we weren't getting good value on our investments. You draft a player and then as the GM, Colbert has no idea what he has in that player 3 years later?

We had fallen behind the rest of the NFL. Other teams draft rookies on defense and start them IMMEDIATELY!!!

They get great production from their rookie draft picks IMMEDIATELY!!!

Meanwhile, under LeBeau we were dicking around, taking our sweet old time, acting as if it were pre-1993. Meaning that their was no free agency and that we had no danger of losing players. We had an antiquated system under LeBeau that was not sustainable and was actually competitively disadvantageous to us.


Aaron Smith needed a year to put on weight to play. Casey Hampton is the only one I can think of that started within his first 6 games.
Worilds was horrible his first year and just as bad in his 2nd. His 1st step was incredible but then he was quite lost.

With all the bitching about communications in the defensive secondary I would think that some players need some time to learn their responsibilities. I could be wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:25 am 
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Davis benched for Sutton?

The Steelers' acquisition of Morgan Burnett may result in the benching of Sean Davis.

That's the opinion of former-NFL-scout-turned-Steelers-radio-analyst Matt Williamson. He was on Mark Madden's show Tuesday. You can hear the audio here at roughly the 3:23 mark.

Conventional thinking is that Burnett will be the Steelers' strong safety, and Davis will go to free safety. But Williamson is of the opinion that Cam Sutton will get converted from cornerback to free safety.

I brought this up on the daily podcast . I thought Sutton may get moved to safety if the Steelers couldn't find a free agent starter. But they did.

My hunch is that the Steelers aren't ready to give up on Davis. And I could see Sutton staying at corner and perhaps pressing Artie Burns at corner more so than I see him taking Davis' job. http://triblive.com/sports/columnists/t ... osbys-sick
Is this guy off his meds? Or is he looking for clicks?


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:59 am 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
Quote:
Davis benched for Sutton?

The Steelers' acquisition of Morgan Burnett may result in the benching of Sean Davis.

That's the opinion of former-NFL-scout-turned-Steelers-radio-analyst Matt Williamson. He was on Mark Madden's show Tuesday. You can hear the audio here at roughly the 3:23 mark.

Conventional thinking is that Burnett will be the Steelers' strong safety, and Davis will go to free safety. But Williamson is of the opinion that Cam Sutton will get converted from cornerback to free safety.

I brought this up on the daily podcast . I thought Sutton may get moved to safety if the Steelers couldn't find a free agent starter. But they did.

My hunch is that the Steelers aren't ready to give up on Davis. And I could see Sutton staying at corner and perhaps pressing Artie Burns at corner more so than I see him taking Davis' job. http://triblive.com/sports/columnists/t ... osbys-sick
Is this guy off his meds? Or is he looking for clicks?

I think a 1st round FS rookie will be given the chance to take Davis's job... to at least challenge him. Davis has some serious holes in his game.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:13 am 
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I think a 1st round FS rookie will be given the chance to take Davis's job... to at least challenge him. Davis has some serious holes in his game.


Seems visually every defensive player we’ve taken of late has holes in their game.

Lots of top picks have been thrown at this D and all they have to show for it at this point are some real embarrassing playoff thumpings.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:46 am 
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Could be a big reason Lake was asked to step aside. DB evals have not been good. With a new secondary coach and no more Gay/Mitchell, it wouldn't shock me to see some open competition at CB2, FS, Dime Backer.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:26 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Could be a big reason Lake was asked to step aside. DB evals have not been good. With a new secondary coach and no more Gay/Mitchell, it wouldn't shock me to see some open competition at CB2, FS, Dime Backer.


Burns and Davis were huge surprises their rookie years and last year had some major regression.

Sophomore slumps or something more concerning?

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:28 pm 
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Does the HC, a former DC and DB coach, not take part in secondary evals?

All that fell to Lake?

I don’t believe that for a second. And you shouldn’t either.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:41 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Does the HC, a former DC and DB coach, not take part in secondary evals?

All that fell to Lake?

I don’t believe that for a second. And you shouldn’t either.

I don't. But usually that guy gets the responsibility for making talented guys trained and probably has a big voice in who he wants/believes in.

I think Burns didn't regress-- he just didn't take a big step forward. Still really young, though, so, there's hope.

I really believe in Sean Davis the person... seems like a smart, mature kid. I worry that there's no real position for him. Not agile/quick enough for CB, not physical enough for SS, not off-man coverage talented enough/rangy enough for FS. He would make a nice upgrade for Golden, though. I hope they can figure out a way to make him better than the team's 3rd safety but I think that's where he's headed.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:45 pm 
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I wonder why our OLB “coach” wasn’t sent packing.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers sign S Morgan Burnett 3yrs 14.5 mil
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Because they're happy with what their OLBs did last year.

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