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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:39 pm 
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FC wrote:
No fucking way I pick up the option

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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:44 pm 
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Question -- what is the FT for a 3-4 OLB? I think around 13m? So, not picking up the option permits the ability to retain Dupree at 13m if he does really well. Why would you pick up the option?


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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:01 pm 
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I think the draft will dictate it. Hopefully they come away with a good enough prospect to feel comfortable saying no to the option.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:12 pm 
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The Steelers usually pick up the 5th year option when they really want the player for the long term, when they know it is a precursor to signing a new long term contract.

I would not give him that 5th year option because of how they use their OLBs now. Whether or not you want to believe Dupree dropping into coverage so much is an excuse for him not putting up big numbers as a pass rusher, how do you explain Watt? He dropped into coverage even more, I read with two games remaining in the season that he was the edge rusher with the second most drops into pass coverage.

Many of you can live in denial all you want but what the Steelers are doing with their 3-4 OLBs is different now, is it more like what 4-3 teams expect of their OLBs. I don't see the double digit sacks seasons of a James Harrison or Lamar Woodley ever coming back.

Besides, they spend their money along the defensive line now. It used to be they sunk their money into the OLBs. Remember when Harrison and Woodley both had 50+ million contracts? Now it is Heyward and Tuitt that have $60 million apiece. That tells me all I need to know, the OLBs are not the featured players in this defense anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:23 pm 
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Dropping into coverage a lot will eat into any OLBs potential sack total.

Playing soft and like a complete pussy has a much bigger impact.

Basically, dropping into coverage isn’t an excuse for Dupree.

The fact he plays like oversized vagina is.

I remember a play this season where he literally stopped mid play and tip toes around in the backfield. He had a shot at chasing down the QB if he was playing 100% and didn’t give up after his first half assed attempt.

Couldn’t believe my eyes.

Well I could actually as we’ve had a run of turds like this of late.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:41 pm 
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This is a tough one. I've seen play(S) like the one 95 describes and it infuriates the shit out of me. Then I'll see play(s) like the one where he leveled the QB on a free run and was flagged/fined for it. So I think you almost have to pick up the 5th year unless your plan is to draft a replacement OLB (Lorenzo Carter) then no I would not.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:20 am 
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Nope. 9.5MM?!

Scunge I don’t disagree with anything you say, but whatever they are doing with their players right now, the scheme is not good. Sure we looked pretty good on defense a few games last year, but all season long we were gashed by power teams up and down the field.

It absolutely blows to think we went Jervis, then Bust Dupree, and yet year after year we still don’t have a damn body on the roster that can get to the QB from the edge. We are dropping guys into coverage because they aren’t really good at anything else.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:53 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:
We are dropping guys into coverage because they aren’t really good at anything else.

I kinda think it's by design that we're dropping OLB's into coverage more now.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:28 pm 
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TJ Watt can rush the passer. He actually had quality sacks and pressures last year as a rookie. 7 sacks in 15 games as a rookie. I'll take that. He's a really special player in coverage as well. That frame and those long arms really shrink windows. I can see why they dropped him at times.

Bud Dupree is hot garbage as a pass rusher. He's slow off the snap, has terrible instincts, uses his hands and arms less than a T-Rex, and has no bend around the edge whatsoever. He's also a quitter. He quits on far too many plays for my liking. There is no way a man of that size and frame should be PANCAKED by TEs. Yet, it happened a lot.

The light isn't coming on for him. He is who he is. We better hope we nail an OLB pick or that Keion Adams is a diamond in the rough because that side of our defense fckin blows with him.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:54 pm 
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Quote:
He's also a quitter


Yep.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:40 pm 
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Dupree is another OLB draft miss


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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:14 pm 
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You just can't predict heart. You can watch film, you can have them work out in shorts.. but they're all so schooled by agents what to say.. Hell, probably a lot of them have heart in college when they dominate 19, 20,21 yr olds... But when they have grown ass men like James Harrison wanting to kill you... that heart grows timid...


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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:25 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
Orangesteel wrote:
We are dropping guys into coverage because they aren’t really good at anything else.

I kinda think it's by design that we're dropping OLB's into coverage more now.


Oh, to support this awesome defense we have?

Whatever you have to tell yourself to make it easier to sleep at night and avoid those “please god not another Jervis Jones” nightmares.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:40 pm 
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We set a team record in sacks, blitzed 5 or more almost never and hardly ever sent even 4 including a CB or ILB. We were also 1st in the league vs TEs and 5th in the league vs short passes. Yes, some of that included Shazier, but in general those weren't the problems.

In contrast, we were 26th (as in 6th worst) vs deep passes and 18th vs the run. Obviously, some of the run issues were on Dupree but hardly all.

Safety and #2 CB and dime backer. Starting Mack who is at least not a severe liability vs either the run or the pass. These are so much bigger problems than Dupree it is difficult to compare them.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:01 am 
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So he’s a decent coverage backer and an average run backer. Or to put it another way, a poor first round pick.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:52 am 
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Orangesteel wrote:
So he’s a decent coverage backer and an average run backer. Or to put it another way, a poor first round pick.

Um, you have extremely unrealistic expectations for a first round pick then. You got an above average starter, which isn’t bad from that slot.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:43 am 
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Our sack totals have nothing to do with Bud Dupree as a pass rusher. They were scheme sacks and when the chips were down in key moments of the season, the pass rush was nowhere to be found. Good teams stops scheme blitzes. They know Mike Hilton is coming. When we needed pressure, Bud Dupree was nowhere to be found.

The long passes? Scheme breakdown in many cases. But a QB still needs time to complete those. While Bud runs his normal arc 10 feet past the QB, the Brisetts and Hundleys of the world just step up and fire.

I just don't know how you can say Dupree is an above average starter. He's a starter for much of the same reason Jarvis Jones was....we don't want to admit our investment was a bad one. He also has Anthony Chickillo and Arthur Moats behind him....not really going to challenge many people.

I know you like his elite athletic traits. He ticks a lot of the boxes you would use to evaluate an OLB coming out of college, but that athleticism is not translated on the field much at all.

In the end, I'm not sure he loves football. His Kentucky tape had him quitting on a lot of plays too. I think some of us were very alarmed by that and we were sounding the alarm bells. Tombert missed that though.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:59 am 
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Franco nailed it in his first sentence. Enough said. Dupree is a quitter. He will stand there and watch plays unfold going right by him. I don't believe Dupree has the killer instinct. Looks to me like he just goes through the motions and he takes plays off.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:31 am 
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franco32 wrote:
Our sack totals have nothing to do with Bud Dupree as a pass rusher. They were scheme sacks and when the chips were down in key moments of the season, the pass rush was nowhere to be found. Good teams stops scheme blitzes. They know Mike Hilton is coming. When we needed pressure, Bud Dupree was nowhere to be found.

The long passes? Scheme breakdown in many cases. But a QB still needs time to complete those. While Bud runs his normal arc 10 feet past the QB, the Brisetts and Hundleys of the world just step up and fire.

I just don't know how you can say Dupree is an above average starter. He's a starter for much of the same reason Jarvis Jones was....we don't want to admit our investment was a bad one. He also has Anthony Chickillo and Arthur Moats behind him....not really going to challenge many people.

I know you like his elite athletic traits. He ticks a lot of the boxes you would use to evaluate an OLB coming out of college, but that athleticism is not translated on the field much at all.

In the end, I'm not sure he loves football. His Kentucky tape had him quitting on a lot of plays too. I think some of us were very alarmed by that and we were sounding the alarm bells. Tombert missed that though.

Dupree appeared to have a job: funnel the QB up in the pocket towards those three DL and or Vince Williams. To say he had no factor in their sack record (also ignoring his own sacks) is silly.

Welcome to Pittsburgh, the place where not only do you have to draft an all-pro with every late 1st round and late 2nd round pick, those players have to do things a certain way in order for that production to be acceptable.

Dupree is about the 10-12th best 22nd pick in the draft of the last 25 years. In his draft class, there were a lot of average to below average players taken near him and very few taken after him that have enjoyed significantly more success.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:19 am 
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Two issue I see with Dupree.

His brain gets "stuck in the mud" too often.
We do not have the coaching to corrrect, develope and shape the physical tools he was born with.

What I mean by "stuck in the mud", is that you will see many plays unfold with Dupree being right in the vicintity of the play, but just can not explode to the play.
Many occasions, mostly on run plays, you will see him watching the play unfold and he is just shuffling sideways downfield, parralleling the runner, doing more thinking and watching and getting lost in the shuffle of players. These are mostly on runs to his right, cut back runs between TE and Tackle or Tackle and Guard.

Maybe that is just instinct and its not gonna change.
Maybe its coaching.

The fact that he sprints up field with his big loop on the majority of his pass rushes has to be coaching.
Is that what he is told to do?
Maybe he has been taught to rush upfield to force the QB to step up into the pocket and into Cam, Hargrave and Tuit.
Rather than all out......go get the QB.
Has he not been taught and developed other moves. Spin, Rip, Bull rush.

He should have an incredible bull rush.
But a bull rush will not be effective if the OT is not being set up with a variety of moves to stay off balanced.
A bull rush is so much more effective when a tackle is shifting his feet quickly to prevent the up field rush or cautiously awaiting a spin move inside.

Between his lack to react on run plays and his upfield pass rush, it seems he is thinking too much and not just letting it rip and play football.

Porter has not developed Bud Dupree as a pass rusher.
To add to that, I did not think TJ Watt progressed as a pass rusher as the season wore on. We will see with him in year 2.

I will add, as mentioned, the Steelers OLB continue to drop more into coverage, than rush the passer.
Few opportunities, most likely result in fewer sacks.

I think the best fit for Bud Dupree going forward is to limit his responsibilities and provide him with a focus and direction.
Rush the passer.
I can not say he is a great coverage OLB.
After three years, 38 games and 24 starts he has 3 passes defended and 0 ints.
Last year was his first full year of starting games.

Can not recall many plays where we said, " Oh, he almost had his hands on that" "Almost tipped that"
Did he bat down any passes like Watt? Doesn't he have better physical tools than Watt?

His sack total his first three years 2015 - 4.0, 2016 - 4.5, 2017 - 6.0
At least has gone up each year.

Make him a pass rusher.
Cam, Hargrave, Tuit and Dupree on the line.

Means we need to draft a coverage LB.
Probably even need to draft two LB's.
ILB with read and react abilities with coverage skills as a strength. ( 1st or 2nd round )
Maybe this high round LB can play OLB early on.

Second drafted LB should be a OLB / DE with pass rushing skills as his best attribute to rotate in with Dupree.

This draft should see.
( 2 ) LB.
( 2 ) S
WR
RB
DT/NT

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Last edited by Stosh-67 on Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:22 am 
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Quote:
Dupree appeared to have a job: funnel the QB up in the pocket towards those three DL and or Vince Williams


Ha!

My thoughts on his upfield pass rush as well...........

Started my post and client came in to distract me before finishing my thoughts.
Silly person. Its Friday.

Quote:
Maybe he has been taught to rush upfield to force the QB to step up into the pocket and into Cam, Hargrave and Tuit.

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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:48 am 
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I agree about the mental processing stuff. Good to remember that 2017 was Bud's first year starting all the games and that we knew he was going to be a project from day one because of the shenanigans in his college use.

I just think that all of us who have been watching football and following the Steelers for a while need to adjust our viewing filter to the 2018 NFL realities. Yes, some things like read/react, take on blocks, tackle fundamentals-- these transcend eras. But how players need to be multiple in their responsibilities and knowledge, how edge guys need to able to do more than go after QBs with impunity... stuff to keep in mind. Offenses are much more multiple and less predictable (unless Todd Haley is in charge).

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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:50 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Orangesteel wrote:
So he’s a decent coverage backer and an average run backer. Or to put it another way, a poor first round pick.

Um, you have extremely unrealistic expectations for a first round pick then. You got an above average starter, which isn’t bad from that slot.


If you think Alvin Dupree is above average, we won’t agree here. And I hardly think my expectations for a first round pick are unrealistic. Bud doesn’t excel at anything and there is game tape to show his effort on a lot of plays is lackluster.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:52 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
I agree about the mental processing stuff. Good to remember that 2017 was Bud's first year starting all the games and that we knew he was going to be a project from day one because of the shenanigans in his college use.

I just think that all of us who have been watching football and following the Steelers for a while need to adjust our viewing filter to the 2018 NFL realities. Yes, some things like read/react, take on blocks, tackle fundamentals-- these transcend eras. But how players need to be multiple in their responsibilities and knowledge, how edge guys need to able to do more than go after QBs with impunity... stuff to keep in mind. Offenses are much more multiple and less predictable (unless Todd Haley is in charge).


What is your empirical basis for saying he is "average" starter? Should I just trust your eye test? Because you will scoff at PFF whatever it's limitations I think it's more empirical than somebody simply saying "he looks fine to me". And PFF's metrics clearly say he sucks.

But if we are going to throw out PFF I think my eye test is just as valid as yours. And having rewatched the season on All 22 I clearly don't think he is an average starter in the NFL.


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 Post subject: Re: Bud's Fifth Year Option
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:18 pm 
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Quote:
@MarkKaboly
Kevin Colbert said that no decision has been made on Bud Dupree’s 5th year option. https://twitter.com/MarkKaboly/status/9 ... 9414472704
This is a case of importance/priority. If picking up Dupree's 5th year was important/priority the Steelers would have already done so. I think Bud is a FA next season. Especially if the draft turns out like what is expected. If you follow all their visits/interviews LB'er is what they seem to be most interested in followed closely by Safety.

Also...

Quote:
Could the Steelers possibly re-do the contract of injured linebacker Ryan Shazier to create more room under the salary cap and extend his deal another year?

General manager Kevin Colbert said it’s always a possibility, but quickly added “that’s so far down the road” it is not part of the team’s thought process.

Shazier is scheduled to count $8.718 million against the cap in 2018, which is the final year of his five-year contract he signed as a No. 1 draft choice in 2014.

“Ryan’s recovery is first and foremost,” Colbert said. “Our approach is there’s no ceiling in Ryan’s recovery. It’s a process. We support him every day. Where it leads only he will know and only he will determine it further down the road.” http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/stee ... 1521995098
Hmmm....


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