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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:10 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
treat88 wrote:
The one question I have about the protest is, what is the end point? What X variable has to happen for players to no longer feel the need to protest? What can the league or police departments do to change that eliminates the motivation for the protests? If the attention garnered generates some positive social change and improves relations between police and their communities and that is then acknowledged and protests stop, that would seem to be a successful outcome. If the protests are simply about a perceived, permanent victim status, then there was never an honest point to begin with.
First of all, if they protested behind the scenes, without the cameras on them, the attention would be minimal, and the object of their protests wouldn't even see the protests. Protest needs exposure, wide audiences. Either way, playing the anthem before every game is stupid and should be stopped.

There is no end game, but a way to keep striving for a better society. Its about keeping a steady light shining on injustice. No light, injustice continues in the dark. Those that want to stop the protests want to deny racism, or institutional racism, and don't want to be reminded of it. They want to censor them.

Others stand behind anthem and flag worship. Many believe the players are "playing" victim for added benefits, and there are no injustices. What benefits, I ask? What exactly does the right think blacks want with #blacklivesmatter? And still others don't see the point because there is no tangible result other than consternation and friction. But that's the point. Cultural/societal attitudes are abstract notions that can be manipulated. The village idiot-in-chief is a prime example.

When the Texas board of Ed wants to call slaves "immigrant workers" in history books, you know you have a problem. When people weaponize the police, you know you have a problem. When people hold rallies with tiki torches with white supremacy on their sleeves, you know you have a problem. Trying to deny the stain of racism this country has is simply whitewashing history or attempt to bend perception their way. The NFL wants to punish players because a) most owners are conservatives and 2) they don't want to alienate a very large fan base that is mostly conservative. This forum is a clear reflection of that, and I've seen it on other football forums as well. And dumpster stirring the shit doesn't help either, but he's said there are some very good white supremacists.


I am asking this in good faith just so I understand,

Based on the bolded portion, do I understand correctly that there is no concrete action that the league or police could take to assuage the motivation for the protest?

The protesting then is not then about enacting change, but rather a commentary on the reality that racism has existed and continues to exist?

In essence, it is then a permanent protest?


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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:31 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
Still Lit wrote:

But the camera’s are not a RELEVANT difference and are not because the outrage is that players are disrespecting the flag/anthem/troops/baby bald eagles by kneeling and not standing to attention. John Q scratching his balls in line for a beer is also not standing at attention and is therefore also disrespecting XYZ or whatever.

Further, the owners are at liberty to come together and figure out who to punish and how and why. If they are too incompetent to do that, what has that to do with the players? The I can’t say that at work argument is silly when directed at the players. The owners are free to do whatever. No one is stopping them but themselves.


We'll disagree with what I've bolded.
The cameras and the attention are highly relevant here. If this issue is so dearly important to this group of players, then why don't they go and hold a picket sign outside the police station (let's make it simple and assume the players' cause celebre is alleged policy brutality)? What better way to reach a larger audience than the millions of people already watching the game?

There was a HS kid around this area who was kneeling last year and the coach kicked him off the team. Not any TV cameras in this case and the general consensus was this kid was an idiot and merely mimicking the NFL (unsure if that was an accurate take). So the more eyes you have on your cause, just by sheer volume there will be more people who support you. Try to picket in front of the police station and you'll likely get all kinds of things thrown at you. Get in front of the camera and you've got a portion of the nation behind you. What route would you choose if this issue is near and dear to you?

As to your other point about the owners banding together are you advocating that disruptive behavior is ok if those in authority are incompetent to stop it?
Is it ok for kids to be disrespectful assholes (not calling the players assholes, mind you) because their parents are too apathetic or have a cognitive issue that prevents this behavior?


I’m going to set aside much of what you posted here and whether I agree because it is not relevant nor does it follow from what I am stressing.

You may disagree with the bolded, but you did not confront the reasoning behind it and which follows it (“and not relevant because”). What I am stressing is that people are worked up bc players are kneeling and therefore disrespecting the anthem. But no one gives a shit about the fans who also fail to observe. And the fans far outnumber the players.

You are right that the cameras make us aware of players kneeling. I wonder whether people would be so outraged were the cameras trained on all those patriots wandering the concession aisles while the anthem is on and not giving a shit that it’s being sung.

Owners are free to cut or bench whomever they want just like employers can fire someone for being a political turd at work.

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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:34 pm 
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treat88 wrote:
I am asking this in good faith just so I understand,

Based on the bolded portion, do I understand correctly that there is no concrete action that the league or police could take to assuage the motivation for the protest?

The protesting then is not then about enacting change, but rather a commentary on the reality that racism has existed and continues to exist?

In essence, it is then a permanent protest?
Ultimately it's about human nature. There will always be bad cops, just like there are bad football players. It's a matter of remaining vigilant. Of course there are concrete actions that can be taken, though. Making cops accountable for their actions is one. That's a big one. And that goes for all police shootings. More training and a vetting process that identifies questionable behavior, but beliefs remain hidden until it's too late. The cop in Pgh that shot the fleeing kid was previously fired for treating a black person badly as a result of what seemed like overt racism. This is a specific behavior that runs counter to serve and protect. If I had a history of say, laying bad concrete, I should be excluded from consideration as a contractor, yes? More transparency in law enforcement would be another step. Another action would be teaching society that bigotry is bad, and one can't hide behind white, populist, nationalism. People still do argue the inferiority of some races, and that the US was founded by white people, built by white people (!really?), and intended for a majority white population. In 2018.

I read an article (I think I posted it here a long while ago) written by a black cop. His contention was that there are 15% bad cops, and 15% good cops. The rest of the 70% go along with whoever they are partnered with. Does that sound like an effective way to run an organization? At any rate, these things don't get fixed over night, and there will always be people that game the system.

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Last edited by COR-TEN on Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:47 pm 
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Cor-Ten: Of course the US was predominantly built by white people. Most Americans have been white. Believing anything else is fake history (eg king cotton). It is also wholly besides the point. Who cares the skin color of someone who historically did something?

I actually think it’s only a concern if you believe in things like cultural appropriation wherein certain things belong to certain races. But because that’s horse shit, so is any concern re who “built” the US.


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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:49 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Owners are free to cut or bench whomever they want just like employers can fire someone for being a political turd at work.
If some players want to be vocal, and were as outspoken as kapernick outside work, he'd still be ostracised. You don't think people would hate him and want him fired simply for wearing a Che Guevara t shirt on his own time? Or protested in front of a local precinct?

The NFL has a code of conduct. If an owner determines that your conduct outside work (whatever the fuck that means for a football player - it's not like they work in a factory 8-4:30) is "detrimental' to the team, they can fire you. So they can force behavior one way or another. It just matters how much noise you make.

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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:20 pm 
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Zeke5123 wrote:
I actually think it’s only a concern if you believe in things like cultural appropriation wherein certain things belong to certain races. But because that’s horse shit, so is any concern re who “built” the US.


I propose a psychological proof that puts pressure on your thesis that it is horse shit that some things belong to certain cultures or races:

Every time you see a white dude with dreads, your desire to punch him in the face increases in intensity in proportion to the length of the dreadlocks. If the dreaded Caucasian in question sports a Rastacap, your desire expands to include things like lead pipes.

:D

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We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:31 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Zeke5123 wrote:
I actually think it’s only a concern if you believe in things like cultural appropriation wherein certain things belong to certain races. But because that’s horse shit, so is any concern re who “built” the US.


I propose a psychological proof that puts pressure on your thesis that it is horse shit that some things belong to certain cultures or races:

Every time you see a white dude with dreads, your desire to punch him in the face increases in intensity in proportion to the length of the dreadlocks. If the dreaded Caucasian in question sports a Rastacap, your desire expands to include things like lead pipes.

:D


It is a funny joke. But culture is fluid; appropriating parts of culture and assimilating it is how culture grows. Ossifying culture is how it dies. It also ignores history (eg the roots of rap of rap music may have been in Scotland)


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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:54 pm 
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DrMalba wrote:
Nick79 wrote:
Louis Lipps Service wrote:
Yet, the NFL keeps finding ways to stir it back up and creating more headlines around it.



It's not the NFL It's Trump and the Trump Zombies that think it's such a BFD.


Just had a nice, calm, reasoned "discussion" on this topic with my father (Captain USN, retired) this weekend.
BTW Reliably conservative, decidedly NOT pro-Trump, nor a Trumpkin.

His points were:
- What do these guys think they are fighting for?
- What difference do they think it makes?
- Why the fuck do I care what some rich athlete entertainer says or thinks?

His Solutions
- Shut up and play football.
- Remove the anthem entirely from the game.


I am also a veteran and agree with your fathers solutions.

Would add that as being used and paid for in this instance, I do not agree with others’ points that the anthem is a tribute to the military and hence the protest disrespectful to current and past servicemen and women. The anthem is a patriotic rememberance of the original American experiment and themes.


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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:01 pm 
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DrMalba wrote:
- Why the fuck do I care what some rich athlete entertainer says or thinks?


While your father isn't a Trumptard, does he understand that Trump (and Reagan, for that matter) were entertainers (actors) and Cadet Bone Spurs marries both wealth and being an entertainer/non-politician.

So this one really doesn't hold water.

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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:25 pm 
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KC wrote:
DrMalba wrote:
- Why the fuck do I care what some rich athlete entertainer says or thinks?


While your father isn't a Trumptard, does he understand that Trump (and Reagan, for that matter) were entertainers (actors) and Cadet Bone Spurs marries both wealth and being an entertainer/non-politician.

So this one really doesn't hold water.


Heh, I made that very same point as well in my counter-argument and specifically mentioned President Breitbart Dad and NBC's the Apprentice cadre of presidential advisers. I also asked him when Tom Brady eventually runs for office if he'll begin to change his mind.

That said, while he loathes Trump, he's basically taking the "rich athletes doing the least amount of sacrifice possible" line and not budging.
At 70 and typically with scotch in hand, he's more or less lost all ability to maintain even mildly nuanced opinions on such matters.

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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:30 pm 
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As an Football fan I wish they'd take their protests into Washington DC instead of game day. That's all!


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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 8:23 pm 
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My opinion:

I don’t approve of them taking a knee. Protesting in the workplace as an employee typically gets you canned.

And further:

If Trump said he loved the protests at football games, some of the same Trump haters saying it’s ok to protest would pull a full 180. And that’s a fact.

That’s how divided the country is right now.

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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:33 am 
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BarryFoster wrote:

If Trump said he loved the protests at football games, some of the same Trump haters saying it’s ok to protest would pull a full 180. And that’s a fact.

That’s how divided the country is right now.


I agree that would happen. But sadly it would be because the majority of the populace can't think for themselves and what the leader of their preferred party says, they follow like lemmings.

This is why identity politics is awful and so ingrained...we'll never had a 3rd choice. "You're either with us or against us" and this isn't a new phenomenon with the current POTUS. Been going on for the past...oh 50 years. It's just louder now due to social media.


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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:52 am 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
As an Football fan I wish they'd take their protests into Washington DC instead of game day. That's all!


My days off of work are Saturday and Sunday.
I do not picket, protect ( sans Steeler Fury - lol ), during work hours.
I do not create distractions or problem for my employer that would start to divide the workplace, create distractions and have my co-workers lose their focus on why we are at work, create animosity, grudges, a political divide, etc..

I am sure there are plenty of teammates that dislike what Michael Bennett is doing and that may affect how they interact as teammates, animosity, conversations, meetings, practice, games, etc.
I am sure there are plenty of teammates that dislike what Dak Prescott is doing and that may affect how they interact as teammates, animosity, conversations, meetings, practice, games, etc.

I believe Tuesday is the NFL players day off.
I would totally support their right to march to Washington, Baltimore, their home town or current NFL city. Speak at rallies. Hold town hall meeting and workshops, etc. in conjunction with local authorities, mayors, congressman, senators, governors, etc.

They can start in Baltimore after the latest police brutality. I wonder what kind of outrage, protests, marches, debates, etc will come after this latest incident.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/baltimore-police-officer-suspended-disturbing-video-shows-repeatedly/story?id=57143900



This police officer has resigned.

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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:44 pm 
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Stosh-67 wrote:
[
My days off of work are Saturday and Sunday.
I do not picket, protect ( sans Steeler Fury - lol ), during work hours.
I do not create distractions or problem for my employer that would start to divide the workplace, create distractions and have my co-workers lose their focus on why we are at work, create animosity, grudges, a political divide, etc..
I'm curious. What exactly is the average football players "time on the clock." I think that bears some discussion. As I've already posted, conduct detrimental to the team can be anything the ownership wants. When exactly are they on the clock? During practice, when they enter the stadium? Their time is constantly in flux. I can average time through the week for billable hours and fudge time according to work done, but what and when is the average joe player allowed to express himself? Technically, they get paid for their play on the field and practice. Hours that are required to be part of the team. Does that include standing for the national anthem? Can that be considered off the clock because it's a civic duty thing?

Is standing for the national anthem a requirement for a job? How exactly would that go over with the EEOC? Does this mean the employer decides what the hours are? What does the CBA dictate?

As far as political talk in the workplace, I suggest understanding what it was like in Mussolini's Italy, or Hitler's Germany, or Stalin's Russia. Did anyone dare contest the ruling party? If anyone failed to salute the flag, they were imprisoned. Is everybody ok with that? And by imprisoned I mean a sabotaged career, or locked out because you don't think like ownership?

Just sayin'

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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:14 pm 
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I think one of the most annoying parts of this whole mess is that the protest has missed the whole point.

I think Colin K. missed the opportunity in San Francisco, but maybe the 49’s are not like the Steelers. He certainly created a platform and even a movement from which someone on the Steelers could have benefited.

If I was KP or if I was for instance Le’Veon Bell and was concerned about this issue in Pittsburgh, instead of taking a knee I would call Mr. Rooney and ask him if he could set up a meeting with the Mayor, the police commissioner, and maybe even Roger Goodell and ask Mr. Rooney if he would help me negotiate a major policy change for the Pittsburgh police or the city. It would not be easy, but I could certainly see something constructive coming out of that meeting and a path forward to improve the Pittsburgh community and police system and procedures.

Then I would perhaps get a Pirate rep to come on board, probably a Penguin too and you would have a pretty powerful platform from which to work and deliver change.

Seems like a much better alternative than taking a knee! And it is not that far fetched at all!


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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:43 pm 
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I would say players, on game day are on the clock when they step into the stadium.

Are you saying players can start doing backflips down the sidelines, shaking hands with fans and signing autographs and taking selfies with fans or teamates during playing of national anthem.
Maybe work his way around stadium wall to hand out brochures.
They are certainly on the clock when they put a uniform on and get out on the field.

Great post Lakecrest.
But that behind the scene action is not gonna get said player TV time, NFL network time, social media exposure, press, fanfare, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:31 pm 
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The owner and the NFLPA will have to come to an agreement. THey could go to the NBA style where you can come out for warm-ups and wear your Black/White lives mater shirt. Or almost any other statement shirt. But when the uniform goes on they are on the clock and must obey the rules.

Do i see this happening? No. The NFLPA feels they are being mistreated by the owners. And for the most part, the owners ( and Goodell) want nothing that does not make them money or hurt the cash stream. I am already for no NFL football in 2021

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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 5:56 pm 
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Anything that forces the Rooneys to side with Trump probably makes them collectively vomit into their throats a little.


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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:12 pm 
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So because people don't agree with their avenue of approach they're automatically grouped in with the oppressors? Done in this thread.....


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