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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:10 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
treat88 wrote:
The one question I have about the protest is, what is the end point? What X variable has to happen for players to no longer feel the need to protest? What can the league or police departments do to change that eliminates the motivation for the protests? If the attention garnered generates some positive social change and improves relations between police and their communities and that is then acknowledged and protests stop, that would seem to be a successful outcome. If the protests are simply about a perceived, permanent victim status, then there was never an honest point to begin with.
First of all, if they protested behind the scenes, without the cameras on them, the attention would be minimal, and the object of their protests wouldn't even see the protests. Protest needs exposure, wide audiences. Either way, playing the anthem before every game is stupid and should be stopped.

There is no end game, but a way to keep striving for a better society. Its about keeping a steady light shining on injustice. No light, injustice continues in the dark. Those that want to stop the protests want to deny racism, or institutional racism, and don't want to be reminded of it. They want to censor them.

Others stand behind anthem and flag worship. Many believe the players are "playing" victim for added benefits, and there are no injustices. What benefits, I ask? What exactly does the right think blacks want with #blacklivesmatter? And still others don't see the point because there is no tangible result other than consternation and friction. But that's the point. Cultural/societal attitudes are abstract notions that can be manipulated. The village idiot-in-chief is a prime example.

When the Texas board of Ed wants to call slaves "immigrant workers" in history books, you know you have a problem. When people weaponize the police, you know you have a problem. When people hold rallies with tiki torches with white supremacy on their sleeves, you know you have a problem. Trying to deny the stain of racism this country has is simply whitewashing history or attempt to bend perception their way. The NFL wants to punish players because a) most owners are conservatives and 2) they don't want to alienate a very large fan base that is mostly conservative. This forum is a clear reflection of that, and I've seen it on other football forums as well. And dumpster stirring the shit doesn't help either, but he's said there are some very good white supremacists.


I am asking this in good faith just so I understand,

Based on the bolded portion, do I understand correctly that there is no concrete action that the league or police could take to assuage the motivation for the protest?

The protesting then is not then about enacting change, but rather a commentary on the reality that racism has existed and continues to exist?

In essence, it is then a permanent protest?


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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:31 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
Still Lit wrote:

But the camera’s are not a RELEVANT difference and are not because the outrage is that players are disrespecting the flag/anthem/troops/baby bald eagles by kneeling and not standing to attention. John Q scratching his balls in line for a beer is also not standing at attention and is therefore also disrespecting XYZ or whatever.

Further, the owners are at liberty to come together and figure out who to punish and how and why. If they are too incompetent to do that, what has that to do with the players? The I can’t say that at work argument is silly when directed at the players. The owners are free to do whatever. No one is stopping them but themselves.


We'll disagree with what I've bolded.
The cameras and the attention are highly relevant here. If this issue is so dearly important to this group of players, then why don't they go and hold a picket sign outside the police station (let's make it simple and assume the players' cause celebre is alleged policy brutality)? What better way to reach a larger audience than the millions of people already watching the game?

There was a HS kid around this area who was kneeling last year and the coach kicked him off the team. Not any TV cameras in this case and the general consensus was this kid was an idiot and merely mimicking the NFL (unsure if that was an accurate take). So the more eyes you have on your cause, just by sheer volume there will be more people who support you. Try to picket in front of the police station and you'll likely get all kinds of things thrown at you. Get in front of the camera and you've got a portion of the nation behind you. What route would you choose if this issue is near and dear to you?

As to your other point about the owners banding together are you advocating that disruptive behavior is ok if those in authority are incompetent to stop it?
Is it ok for kids to be disrespectful assholes (not calling the players assholes, mind you) because their parents are too apathetic or have a cognitive issue that prevents this behavior?


I’m going to set aside much of what you posted here and whether I agree because it is not relevant nor does it follow from what I am stressing.

You may disagree with the bolded, but you did not confront the reasoning behind it and which follows it (“and not relevant because”). What I am stressing is that people are worked up bc players are kneeling and therefore disrespecting the anthem. But no one gives a shit about the fans who also fail to observe. And the fans far outnumber the players.

You are right that the cameras make us aware of players kneeling. I wonder whether people would be so outraged were the cameras trained on all those patriots wandering the concession aisles while the anthem is on and not giving a shit that it’s being sung.

Owners are free to cut or bench whomever they want just like employers can fire someone for being a political turd at work.

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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:34 pm 
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treat88 wrote:
I am asking this in good faith just so I understand,

Based on the bolded portion, do I understand correctly that there is no concrete action that the league or police could take to assuage the motivation for the protest?

The protesting then is not then about enacting change, but rather a commentary on the reality that racism has existed and continues to exist?

In essence, it is then a permanent protest?
Ultimately it's about human nature. There will always be bad cops, just like there are bad football players. It's a matter of remaining vigilant. Of course there are concrete actions that can be taken, though. Making cops accountable for their actions is one. That's a big one. And that goes for all police shootings. More training and a vetting process that identifies questionable behavior, but beliefs remain hidden until it's too late. The cop in Pgh that shot the fleeing kid was previously fired for treating a black person badly as a result of what seemed like overt racism. This is a specific behavior that runs counter to serve and protect. If I had a history of say, laying bad concrete, I should be excluded from consideration as a contractor, yes? More transparency in law enforcement would be another step. Another action would be teaching society that bigotry is bad, and one can't hide behind white, populist, nationalism. People still do argue the inferiority of some races, and that the US was founded by white people, built by white people (!really?), and intended for a majority white population. In 2018.

I read an article (I think I posted it here a long while ago) written by a black cop. His contention was that there are 15% bad cops, and 15% good cops. The rest of the 70% go along with whoever they are partnered with. Does that sound like an effective way to run an organization? At any rate, these things don't get fixed over night, and there will always be people that game the system.

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Last edited by COR-TEN on Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:47 pm 
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Cor-Ten: Of course the US was predominantly built by white people. Most Americans have been white. Believing anything else is fake history (eg king cotton). It is also wholly besides the point. Who cares the skin color of someone who historically did something?

I actually think it’s only a concern if you believe in things like cultural appropriation wherein certain things belong to certain races. But because that’s horse shit, so is any concern re who “built” the US.


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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:49 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Owners are free to cut or bench whomever they want just like employers can fire someone for being a political turd at work.
If some players want to be vocal, and were as outspoken as kapernick outside work, he'd still be ostracised. You don't think people would hate him and want him fired simply for wearing a Che Guevara t shirt on his own time? Or protested in front of a local precinct?

The NFL has a code of conduct. If an owner determines that your conduct outside work (whatever the fuck that means for a football player - it's not like they work in a factory 8-4:30) is "detrimental' to the team, they can fire you. So they can force behavior one way or another. It just matters how much noise you make.

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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:20 pm 
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Zeke5123 wrote:
I actually think it’s only a concern if you believe in things like cultural appropriation wherein certain things belong to certain races. But because that’s horse shit, so is any concern re who “built” the US.


I propose a psychological proof that puts pressure on your thesis that it is horse shit that some things belong to certain cultures or races:

Every time you see a white dude with dreads, your desire to punch him in the face increases in intensity in proportion to the length of the dreadlocks. If the dreaded Caucasian in question sports a Rastacap, your desire expands to include things like lead pipes.

:D

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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:31 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Zeke5123 wrote:
I actually think it’s only a concern if you believe in things like cultural appropriation wherein certain things belong to certain races. But because that’s horse shit, so is any concern re who “built” the US.


I propose a psychological proof that puts pressure on your thesis that it is horse shit that some things belong to certain cultures or races:

Every time you see a white dude with dreads, your desire to punch him in the face increases in intensity in proportion to the length of the dreadlocks. If the dreaded Caucasian in question sports a Rastacap, your desire expands to include things like lead pipes.

:D


It is a funny joke. But culture is fluid; appropriating parts of culture and assimilating it is how culture grows. Ossifying culture is how it dies. It also ignores history (eg the roots of rap of rap music may have been in Scotland)


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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 5:54 pm 
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DrMalba wrote:
Nick79 wrote:
Louis Lipps Service wrote:
Yet, the NFL keeps finding ways to stir it back up and creating more headlines around it.



It's not the NFL It's Trump and the Trump Zombies that think it's such a BFD.


Just had a nice, calm, reasoned "discussion" on this topic with my father (Captain USN, retired) this weekend.
BTW Reliably conservative, decidedly NOT pro-Trump, nor a Trumpkin.

His points were:
- What do these guys think they are fighting for?
- What difference do they think it makes?
- Why the fuck do I care what some rich athlete entertainer says or thinks?

His Solutions
- Shut up and play football.
- Remove the anthem entirely from the game.


I am also a veteran and agree with your fathers solutions.

Would add that as being used and paid for in this instance, I do not agree with others’ points that the anthem is a tribute to the military and hence the protest disrespectful to current and past servicemen and women. The anthem is a patriotic rememberance of the original American experiment and themes.


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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:01 pm 
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DrMalba wrote:
- Why the fuck do I care what some rich athlete entertainer says or thinks?


While your father isn't a Trumptard, does he understand that Trump (and Reagan, for that matter) were entertainers (actors) and Cadet Bone Spurs marries both wealth and being an entertainer/non-politician.

So this one really doesn't hold water.

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 Post subject: Re: NFL Players Renew Anthem Protests
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:25 pm 
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KC wrote:
DrMalba wrote:
- Why the fuck do I care what some rich athlete entertainer says or thinks?


While your father isn't a Trumptard, does he understand that Trump (and Reagan, for that matter) were entertainers (actors) and Cadet Bone Spurs marries both wealth and being an entertainer/non-politician.

So this one really doesn't hold water.


Heh, I made that very same point as well in my counter-argument and specifically mentioned President Breitbart Dad and NBC's the Apprentice cadre of presidential advisers. I also asked him when Tom Brady eventually runs for office if he'll begin to change his mind.

That said, while he loathes Trump, he's basically taking the "rich athletes doing the least amount of sacrifice possible" line and not budging.
At 70 and typically with scotch in hand, he's more or less lost all ability to maintain even mildly nuanced opinions on such matters.

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