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 Post subject: Re: Steelers give up 51 points
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:57 pm 
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You've got 2 new very experienced position coaches trying to get the best out of what we have. The best way to figure out something is when things go wrong. No one tries to figure out things when things are going right. Its human nature to assume that things are fine when you're winning or making money. But flawed teams and companies get exposed eventually and then it all comes crashing down.

I would rather get "torched" for 51 in a preseason game on the road in order for the coaches to go back to the players and say " this is why we do it this way and not your way". This defense has good talent on it. Its one of the fastest and most flexible we've had in some time. But even with all that it's going to take a bit of time for everyone on that side to trust each other in technique and assignment. My expectation is the unit will have its sea legs by week 4 and will trend up from there.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers give up 51 points
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:22 pm 
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VeritasSteel wrote:
I would rather get "torched" for 51 in a preseason game on the road in order for the coaches to go back to the players and say " this is why we do it this way and not your way".


Someone may prefer their wife cheat on them before the wedding than after (pick your cliche, this is random) but one can't ignore doing the former may be some evidence it will occur after the latter. Again, we shouldn't pretend the preseason is a definitive indicator of where this is going but if you don't have some concerns you are equally blind.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers give up 51 points
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 4:32 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
remember when Philly shredded us in Preseason game 3... and then the defense finished 11th overall that year?


My memory is a bit sketchy.....did we make the SB that year?

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers give up 51 points
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:09 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
remember when Philly shredded us in Preseason game 3... and then the defense finished 11th overall that year?


My memory is a bit sketchy.....did we make the SB that year?

2010: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010082951/2010/PRE3/steelers@broncos#menu=gameinfo%7CcontentId%3A09000d5d81a299df&tab=recap&analyze=boxscore
2005 Mon. Aug. 15 8:00 p.m. ESPN Philadelphia Eagles W 38–31 Heinz Field 1–0

even 2008 had a game where d was porous...
Quote:
http://www.nfl.com/liveupdate/gamecenter/29801/BUF_Gamebook.pdf


Quote:
1995: 2 Sun. Aug. 13 Green Bay Packers Three Rivers Stadium 1:00 p.m. NBC L 36–13 1–1

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers give up 51 points
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:19 pm 
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Tomlin is pissed about the GB game. Claims we gave up leverage on possession downs like 3rd and 4. Guess what Mike, we were giving up leverage on 1st and 2nd downs too.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers give up 51 points
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:49 pm 
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We should have been transitioning to a 4-3 when guys like Farrior, Troy, Foote, etc left or retired. It should have been far gone once LeBeau was showed to door. Right now, I don't see what made the FO so hell bent to keep Butler as DC.

We don't have the linebackers for this scheme. Whatever it is. Matakevich can't play, Bostic is a journeyman, Williams is a backup. We've been spectacularly awful at drafting LB's and DB's for the past decade and as a result we've been we've resorted to band aids (Moats, Bostic, William Gay part two, etc) to plug holes.

I rolled my eyes when Tom Bradley was announced as the new DB coach. A rah-rah Paterno guy that's never worked a day in the NFL is going to get this DB unit to function properly? I doubt it.

We'll win the division because it stinks. The Ravens are in transition, the Browns aren't going anywhere with Hue IMO, and the Bengals always find a way to shoot themselves in the foot.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers give up 51 points
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 12:56 pm 
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Steel Reign wrote:
VeritasSteel wrote:
I would rather get "torched" for 51 in a preseason game on the road in order for the coaches to go back to the players and say " this is why we do it this way and not your way".


Someone may prefer their wife cheat on them before the wedding than after (pick your cliche, this is random) but one can't ignore doing the former may be some evidence it will occur after the latter. Again, we shouldn't pretend the preseason is a definitive indicator of where this is going but if you don't have some concerns you are equally blind.


I have serious issues with the metaphor from a "being a man" standpoint, I will ride with it to make my point.

If you have a woman and she cheats on you before the wedding (the start of the season) - then it would be nice to fix the problem or get rid of her before you have to split half your stuff with her? I mean if they had a preseason for marriage, the divorce rate would be less than 10% because you would know that your betrothed doesn't listen, can't cook, can't properly polish the house knob ;) or cover a TE up the seam.to save her life.

"Cheese and rice, Jenny you need to turn your f-ing hips and your head around out of the break, I should have drafted your sister!! At least she could "keep the furniture dusted" around here!"


Women cheat and players cheat on plays because they feel the "system" has abandoned them and their need for support-emotional or organizational. A woman or good player doesn't want to win ( a specific thing)- they each want to be with a winner (consistent success). In a players case the coaching staff can look at the film, work with them to get them to buy in, or call better plays - but that takes repetitions under fire and counseling (i.e film work) among coaches and mentor players.

If your woman or your defense is horrible it's your fault as a man or coach. because you, the person in power, allowed that to happen. Part of fixing it is being willing to drill in your philosophy until it is received by the current or future player (or wife)

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Last edited by VeritasSteel on Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers give up 51 points
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:09 pm 
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“Shoot, I’m going to be honest with you, 50 points is not something you ever want to give up,” Cameron Heyward told Joe Rutter of the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, “no matter who is out there.”
“Whoever is out there — and I’m not trying to make excuses — has to make those plays,” said cornerback Joe Haden. “At the same time, we’re not too worried about it. We still have to tighten up on the tackles and have better communication. “Myself, Cam and the guys not out there, we’d be able to help out a little bit, but we still can be a lot better.”
“We lost leverage too much in coverage, particularly on possession downs,” Tomlin said. “You can’t do that. Leverage is a big element of football. I thought we didn’t do a good enough job there. I didn’t think we did a good enough job of pressuring and containing the quarterback. I thought that was significant early on possession downs.”
“A lot of it was technical mistakes,” Heyward said. “If we don’t do that, we’re not going to get beat like that, whether it’s angles to the ball, being in man and not keeping your leverage or not tackling well. Those are things that contribute to a loss.
“When I watch a game, I don’t want to look at the points. I look at why we did it. What can we do to get better? Is it something we can correct? If you can’t correct it, you shouldn’t be out there.” https://twitter.com/Steel_Curtain4/stat ... 5963669504


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers give up 51 points
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:00 pm 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
Quote:
“Shoot, I’m going to be honest with you, 50 points is not something you ever want to give up,” Cameron Heyward told Joe Rutter of the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, “no matter who is out there.”
“Whoever is out there — and I’m not trying to make excuses — has to make those plays,” said cornerback Joe Haden. “At the same time, we’re not too worried about it. We still have to tighten up on the tackles and have better communication. “Myself, Cam and the guys not out there, we’d be able to help out a little bit, but we still can be a lot better.”
“We lost leverage too much in coverage, particularly on possession downs,” Tomlin said. “You can’t do that. Leverage is a big element of football. I thought we didn’t do a good enough job there. I didn’t think we did a good enough job of pressuring and containing the quarterback. I thought that was significant early on possession downs.”
“A lot of it was technical mistakes,” Heyward said. “If we don’t do that, we’re not going to get beat like that, whether it’s angles to the ball, being in man and not keeping your leverage or not tackling well. Those are things that contribute to a loss.
“When I watch a game, I don’t want to look at the points. I look at why we did it. What can we do to get better? Is it something we can correct? If you can’t correct it, you shouldn’t be out there.” https://twitter.com/Steel_Curtain4/stat ... 5963669504

Is it just me, or have we heard all this bullshit before?

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers give up 51 points
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 2:18 pm 
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You heard lack of communication, leverage, getting off the field on 3rd and 4,etc. Same old bullshit as last year. When will it happen?


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers give up 51 points
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:21 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
TB wrote:
Well, to be fair, it was 37 points. You had two pick sixes and a night of awful punting that didn't help either. When you give Aaron Rodgers the ball at your 40 yard line, as the Packers got for their first drive, points are going to be had. Berry had an 18 yard punt in the second quarter. :lol: The D got no favors.

I expect the Steelers will make a trade within the next week for a LB. They traded a 5th for Brandon Boykin in 2015, a sixth for Justin Gilbert in 2016, and swapped a 4th rounder for a 5th with the Niners for Vance McDonald last year. Expect something similar soon.

The D has the potential to be a dumpster fire this year though. So many changes: Shazier gone with nothing close to his replacement, Sean Davis to FS (which should be "interesting" lol), Watt and Dupree switching sides, Morgan Burnett on a new team and another year older. Cam Heyward is coming off a career year that he likely won't repeat, and the D feasted on shit QBs and pressure by scheme last year. They could be a bottom 10 D this year for sure.

You guys are hilarious. Every year it’s the same poop in your depends after a couple of preseason games. They will figure out to make it work and have no worse than a top 15 D. Well add a Haden/McDonald and they will scheme their way to probably a top 10 D. Be aggressive on both sides of the ball and that’ll be enough.


Fair enough, I want to see Matthew Thomas given a shot on 3rd down to cover opponent's TEs. He can't be any worse and has shown albeit v backups he has some coverage skills.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers give up 51 points
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:47 pm 
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this was a weak link and sorry but our best coverage LB might be Fort but think the steelers will be looking hard to make an addition here


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers give up 51 points
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:58 pm 
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Jeff Hanisch-USA TODAY Sports
“For all these crybabies if not for 2 pick 6’s thrown by our offense we only lost by 3 points they defense played no better than ours we scored 34 points and plus the starters didn’t even play the whole first quarter wtf call yourselves steeler fans you guys really are pessimistic judging our whole season off practice games and if you a real fan you would know this the years we lose all or most of our preseason games we have awesome seasons that year.”
Run-on sentence/no punctuation guy from the Steelers’ official Facebook page had some fair points following the Steelers’ alarming 51-34 loss to the Packers at Lambeau Field in preseason game No. 2 on Thursday night.
It was just a preseason game; also, you take away those two pick-6’s, and things were actually a lot closer than the 17-point deficit indicated.
And like he said, so many starters — players the Steelers will be counting on in Week 1, such as Ben Roethlisberger, Antonio Brown, Le’Veon Bell, Maurkice Pouncey, Vance McDonald (in theory), T.J. Watt, Cam Heyward, Joe Haden, Mike Hilton and Sean Davis didn’t see any action.
But I don’t think Run-on sentence/no punctuation guy was really thinking things through as to what took place on Thursday night. While nobody is really sweating Pittsburgh’s offensive prowess as the team prepares for a highly-anticipated 2018 regular season, the softness of the defense is still a concern.
Let’s face it, whether you want to admit it or not, what took place on Thursday night with all of those defensive starters sitting on the bench looked eerily similar to what took place against an injury-riddled Packers’ team late in the 2017 regular season at Heinz Field — a game in which Aaron Rodgers didn’t even play, while Ryan Shazier did.
It wasn’t so much the yardage the Steelers allowed or the Packers’ third-down efficiency. It wasn’t even so much that the Packers had scored 27 points before they were forced to punt.
Once again, there were so many missed tackles, so many bad angles to ball carriers. And in the middle of the field, it looked like Pittsburgh defenders had placed some of those South Side lawn-chairs between the seams because they knew Green Bay’s offensive players were going to want to park in their spots all night long.
Tyler Matakevich didn’t look like the answer at inside linebacker. As for Jon Bostic, maybe there was a reason he bounced among so many teams after entering the league in 2013.
L.J. Fort seems like he might have the answers if given the chance, but he’s been around here long enough that, if he truly did, we wouldn’t still be asking these questions.
The defense did hold Green Bay to 77 yards rushing, but why run the ball when your four quarterbacks — Aaron Rodgers and three other guys with much thinner resumes — can combine to throw for 280 yards and three touchdowns?
I did like what I saw from the veteran Morgan Burnett, along with the youngster, Terrell Edmunds. Unfortunately, while Edmunds appeared to do everything in his power while trying to cover tight end Jimmy Graham, he still looked like a boy next to a grown man during that first quarter touchdown pass from Rodgers (Willie Gay likely feels your pain, kiddo).
So while I don’t normally put much stock in preseason action, when a defense performs a lot like it did down the stretch and into the playoffs of the previous season — and that defense doesn’t seem to have found a way to compensate for the loss of its most indispensable player — I’m going to be a little concerned about the Steelers’ prospects in 2018.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers give up 51 points
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 9:32 pm 
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steelclan wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
TB wrote:
Well, to be fair, it was 37 points. You had two pick sixes and a night of awful punting that didn't help either. When you give Aaron Rodgers the ball at your 40 yard line, as the Packers got for their first drive, points are going to be had. Berry had an 18 yard punt in the second quarter. :lol: The D got no favors.

I expect the Steelers will make a trade within the next week for a LB. They traded a 5th for Brandon Boykin in 2015, a sixth for Justin Gilbert in 2016, and swapped a 4th rounder for a 5th with the Niners for Vance McDonald last year. Expect something similar soon.

The D has the potential to be a dumpster fire this year though. So many changes: Shazier gone with nothing close to his replacement, Sean Davis to FS (which should be "interesting" lol), Watt and Dupree switching sides, Morgan Burnett on a new team and another year older. Cam Heyward is coming off a career year that he likely won't repeat, and the D feasted on shit QBs and pressure by scheme last year. They could be a bottom 10 D this year for sure.

You guys are hilarious. Every year it’s the same poop in your depends after a couple of preseason games. They will figure out to make it work and have no worse than a top 15 D. Well add a Haden/McDonald and they will scheme their way to probably a top 10 D. Be aggressive on both sides of the ball and that’ll be enough.


Fair enough, I want to see Matthew Thomas given a shot on 3rd down to cover opponent's TEs. He can't be any worse and has shown albeit v backups he has some coverage skills.


Agreed. I knew there was going to be a noticeable amount of lost speed in losing Shazier, but wow do we look slow in the middle right now.

And to B2B's point: I was actually defending the D in that they didn't look as bad as the scoreboard indicated. But I do think with all the changes (and most importantly losing Shazier) there's a chance for a big drop off for this group. I wouldn't bet one way or another on it, but I think you have to consider the possibility that there could be a big drop off from the D this year.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers give up 51 points
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:47 pm 
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TB wrote:
.

Agreed. I knew there was going to be a noticeable amount of lost speed in losing Shazier, but wow do we look slow in the middle right now.

And to B2B's point: I was actually defending the D in that they didn't look as bad as the scoreboard indicated. But I do think with all the changes (and most importantly losing Shazier) there's a chance for a big drop off for this group. I wouldn't bet one way or another on it, but I think you have to consider the possibility that there could be a big drop off from the D this year.

How
Many games did the D play without Shazier last year, with a much worse secondary, and an injured Tuitt/Hargrave/Dupree? Whoever they play at Mack will be better than Sean Spence.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers give up 51 points
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:27 am 
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Outside of some new coaches and rookies, this is the same defense that was destroyed by Jax who I believe got better in the off season.

I will believe it when I see it with these guys.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers give up 51 points
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 12:38 am 
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Suwanee88 wrote:
Outside of some new coaches and rookies, this is the same defense that was destroyed by Jax who I believe got better in the off season.

I will believe it when I see it with these guys.


We've been having this discussion for 4-5 years now.....If this regains his form....And this guy takes the next step....And this rookie has an impact....And this FA upgrades what we had.

And every year it's a mixed bag, ultimately with the defense again falling well short of championship caliber.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers give up 51 points
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:08 am 
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Well, for me, I fully expect things to be very bumpy in the first half of the season on defense. How can they not be? Many of you need to temper your expectations in the first half of the season because there are going to be growing pains, mistakes, lessons that have to be learned. Look at what has transpired or will transpire heading into the season.

1. Lake and John Mitchell are gone.
2. Dunbar and Bradley are newly hired position coaches that replaced them.
3. Mike Mitchell, Robert Golden, JJ Wilcox and Willie Gay are gone from the secondary.
4. Sean Davis is being moved to FS, they brought in Morgan Burnett to play SS and drafted Terrell Edmunds in the first round.
5. They are moving TJ Watt to LOLB to better maximize his skills and moving Bud Dupree to ROLB to hopefully likewise do the same.
6. With Gay gone, it is next man up with players like Cam Sutton and Brian Allen that will now be getting playing time. Hilton is the undisputed nickel CB but there are times when a 4th CB is on the field.
7. Jon Bostic was brought in not to replace Shazier but to at least not be the liability that Sean Spence was.

That is a lot of moving parts, a lot of pieces to the puzzle of crafting a great defense. It is not going to just come together in the first game of the regular season, or the 2nd, or the 6th. No, it will be a process and a 16 game season is a long length of time, a lot of growth and player development can happen from game one to game 16 and into the playoffs.

You look at the development of Mike Hilton last season. Or the development of JuJu. They were not just studs from the first game, fully realized dominant playmakers, no, it took time for them to get their bearings and develop and they did so rapidly.

What the defense will look like at the end of the season and what it looks like at the beginning will be like night and day. For those expecting a finalized dominant defense on opening day are setting themselves up for disappointment. You can't just decide to play more man to man coverage for example and expect them to be great at it in short order. There are going to be trying times ahead as players get burned, but learn and get better at it.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers give up 51 points
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:54 am 
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Scunge wrote:
Well, for me, I fully expect things to be very bumpy in the first half of the season on defense. How can they not be? Many of you need to temper your expectations in the first half of the season because there are going to be growing pains, mistakes, lessons that have to be learned. Look at what has transpired or will transpire heading into the season.

1. Lake and John Mitchell are gone.
2. Dunbar and Bradley are newly hired position coaches that replaced them.
3. Mike Mitchell, Robert Golden, JJ Wilcox and Willie Gay are gone from the secondary.
4. Sean Davis is being moved to FS, they brought in Morgan Burnett to play SS and drafted Terrell Edmunds in the first round.
5. They are moving TJ Watt to LOLB to better maximize his skills and moving Bud Dupree to ROLB to hopefully likewise do the same.
6. With Gay gone, it is next man up with players like Cam Sutton and Brian Allen that will now be getting playing time. Hilton is the undisputed nickel CB but there are times when a 4th CB is on the field.
7. Jon Bostic was brought in not to replace Shazier but to at least not be the liability that Sean Spence was.

That is a lot of moving parts, a lot of pieces to the puzzle of crafting a great defense. It is not going to just come together in the first game of the regular season, or the 2nd, or the 6th. No, it will be a process and a 16 game season is a long length of time, a lot of growth and player development can happen from game one to game 16 and into the playoffs.

You look at the development of Mike Hilton last season. Or the development of JuJu. They were not just studs from the first game, fully realized dominant playmakers, no, it took time for them to get their bearings and develop and they did so rapidly.

What the defense will look like at the end of the season and what it looks like at the beginning will be like night and day. For those expecting a finalized dominant defense on opening day are setting themselves up for disappointment. You can't just decide to play more man to man coverage for example and expect them to be great at it in short order. There are going to be trying times ahead as players get burned, but learn and get better at it.

I agree Scunge, and not to get negative, but let's hope our offense scores a shit-ton of points early in the season, because we play almost all of our divisional games in about the first 9 weeks. If not, we could be scraping by and hoping for a wildcard spot come week 17.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers give up 51 points
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:49 am 
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Me, I don’t even care about defensive dominance.

What I’m looking for is not giving up big plays consistently and not falling apart late in games.

I think they’ll be better than league average on D. Maybe getting up to 6 or 7 ish.

My biggest concern is not LB but Keith butler. Like his mentor he’s too easy to out scheme. I do give him credit for probably rounding the D into shape for around a 10th ranking.

I just mainly don’t want to see big fluctuations. Season sack record. Goudged in the run game and big pass the practice plays. We need consistency more than dominance


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