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 Post subject: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:25 pm 
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You can't make it much simpler than what they've been running. Everybody will know their vanilla and adjust. Too much lack of communication BS excuses.

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Steelers corner Joe Haden hinted the Steelers are simplifying the game plan on defense so everyone is on the same page after too many breakdowns vs. KC


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:31 pm 
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1) Belicheat can change-up and add wrinkles almost weekly. He's not drafting players that are THAT much smarter than ours

2) Players play football, and have their whole life. At some point, more "simplification" is just an indictment of your ability to coach and teach.


We talk a lot about scheme and playcalling. But 80% of it is probably coaching guys up. When players are good at executing what they are asked to do, it covers up a lot of warts.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:34 pm 
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Could have sworn I read that that was one of the changes that was to occur when Butler took the reigns. I don't understand the apparent continued confusion on the defense.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:35 pm 
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I haven't rewatched either game and it has only been 2 games but I don't recall seeing Williams on blitzes. He had success in that area last year, especially in the A gap.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:36 pm 
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Is there any fucking coaching going on to get everyone on the same fucking page? Damn, maybe the Steelers coaches just throw out pieces of paper with a bunch of numbers and arrows on it to show guys where they need to go when a particular defense is called. Do the coaches even teach and practice what everyone is supposed to do? What are they seeing in practice? Dumb it down, because our players are dumber than a box of rocks, but they have a lot of athleticism!


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:11 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
1) Belicheat can change-up and add wrinkles almost weekly. He's not drafting players that are THAT much smarter than ours

2) Players play football, and have their whole life. At some point, more "simplification" is just an indictment of your ability to coach and teach.


We talk a lot about scheme and playcalling. But 80% of it is probably coaching guys up. When players are good at executing what they are asked to do, it covers up a lot of warts.


I don’t know, dude. And maybe Ice will have something to say, but you’d be surprised at how limited your ability is to teach others. You can’t make someone understand anything. They bave to assimilate the principles in virtue of their own intellectual activity. The clearest explanation in the world can’t make someone understand something.

That said, I’m totally on board with number two. But don’t underestimate your number one.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:21 pm 
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Quote:
You can't make it much simpler than what they've been running


Actually schematically the Steelers are one of the most advanced defenses in the NFL.

They check in and out of zones
They pass off receivers
Flips coverages
Flip sides of overload blitzes

LeBeau stuff with a sprinkle of Tomlin.

The results are what they are. Players and scheme have failed

The Steelers defense looks like shit for many reasons.

-They are afraid to play the run with 7....Steelers wont even attempt it this season.
-They dont trust the safeties in coverage
-The Steelers 3rd and 4th corners cannot play outside in the NFL...Down the line may be Sutton can
-The Steelers linebackers can only do so much in coverage. Watt and Dupree do decent jobs when situations are simplified...Cover the back...Cover the tight end...You have the flat and get under the curl. Bostic had a rough game against the Chiefs...I think he could cover better with a definded role or specific guy to cover

-Non existent pass rush. Poor play from Tuitt Heyward Hargrave Walton.

The Steelers scheme is sound...Its utilization of players in the scheme. The Steelers defensive staff must find ways to put defenders in positions to succeed. TJ Watt and Bud Dupree should be playing downhill/upfield 65-75% of the time. Burns Haden Davis play best in man coverage. The Steelers defenders cannot counter punch...The Football IQ isnt there. No James Farriors No Ryan Clarks. No Clark Haggans NO TP's No Deebos rolling around this defense. The Steelers don't have the horses to win the race that Butler is trying to run

IMO the Steelers defense only chance at success is Man Coverage and heavy blitz packages

I am bringing at least 6 every single down...Every defender has a defined role and a job to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:57 pm 
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After 2 games, the Steelers are:
30th in run defense,
14th in pass defense,
28th in points per game.

FC good post.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:11 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
1) Belicheat can change-up and add wrinkles almost weekly. He's not drafting players that are THAT much smarter than ours

2) Players play football, and have their whole life. At some point, more "simplification" is just an indictment of your ability to coach and teach.


We talk a lot about scheme and playcalling. But 80% of it is probably coaching guys up. When players are good at executing what they are asked to do, it covers up a lot of warts.



Kodiak; the Pats put their collective pants on one leg at a time too.

https://nesn.com/2018/09/donta-hightowe ... r-defense/

Dont’a Hightower, Patriots Appreciate Brian Flores’ ‘Easier’ Defense by Zack Cox on Thu, Sep 6, 2018


Last edited by LakecrestSteeler on Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:22 pm 
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The only way "simplifying" works is if you simplify to maximize what your players do well, and minimize what they struggle with, using other players' strengths to mitigate those weaknesses.

FC is spot on about the deficiencies on defense, and the thing that has me sort of sad as I agree with pretty much all of it is that there doesn't seem to be an equation where this group of players has the strengths to mitigate that laundry list of weaknesses.

I hope I'm wrong.

The complications of the defense may be the best method the coaches could come up with. I don't think there's a silver schematic bullet, unfortunately. I want to see them keep trying, though. That's their job.


Last edited by Ice on Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:29 pm 
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Also, I'll agree with Lit that you can show players techniques, you can put them in controlled simulations of game conditions, you can show them film of what they did wrong last weekend, and tell them what they should have done right.

In the moment, though, in live fire conditions, when they have to put all of that together to make a play, some guys can and will, and some guys can't; and that's just being competent.

Never mind a play like JH in XLIII, where not only does he know where he's supposed to be, but he knows that Warner knows and instead does the opposite. That's mastery level.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:33 pm 
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I agree with FC as well. One point I differ on is I think Haden is the leader at least on the secondary.

I don’t think the D is in that bad of shape. Once/if the secondary gets locked down, things will start falling into place. Right now they all will suffer from trust issues and try to play outside their abilities and position.

Simplifying will help get everybody back to doing their job and within their abilities...If they did the old excercise where you fall backwards blindfolded and expect your teammates to catch you, I think there would be some Steelers shitting themselves. Simplifying, and getting back to base packages will settle them all down.

I think they should go with a heavy dose of man too, that will quickly get the secondary locked down!


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:34 pm 
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The overall lack of push by the D-line definitely puts tremendous pressure on the rest of the D, as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:39 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Never mind a play like JH in XLIII, where not only does he know where he's supposed to be, but he knows that Warner knows and instead does the opposite. That's mastery level.


......and knows everyone else’s position on the PS defense, and knows everyone else knows their position, and he can take a chance!

That is position mastery and pretty decent team mastery as well.

That definitely doesn’t exist on 2018 PS defense. We have some studs, and 2 year olds coming into their own. I think they can pull it together. Watt needs to grab some of Shazier’s mantle and lead the way in his sophomore year.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:40 pm 
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Greg cosell on cowherd said he couldn’t remember a game where there were more defensive breakdowns than that chiefs.

He went as far as saying he can’t evaluate mahomes truthfully because steelers D was so bad you have to see him against a real D.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:40 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Never mind a play like JH in XLIII, where not only does he know where he's supposed to be, but he knows that Warner knows and instead does the opposite. That's mastery level.


You're talking apples-and-oranges.

I'm talking about a defense incapable of running simpler concepts, that routinely looks lost and confused. That is NOT reflective of NFL-caliber coaching.

Some people communicate much, much more effectively than others. Bad teachers have a narrow window their message gets thru. Good teachers can not only present something many different ways effectively, they're able to identify when a different approach is needed and what that technique is.

It's been discussed plenty here. There's ample evidence that they are not coaching up/developing players on defense. Who on this team in Tomlin's tenure would you say had significant improvement after year 2? Gilbert? Jesse James? Vince Williams?

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:45 pm 
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Ice wrote:
The overall lack of push by the D-line definitely puts tremendous pressure on the rest of the D, as well.


Have they even had time to push? When the secondary isn’t locking down there is some time to push. But when the secondary has some doors left wide open, there is no time for a push.
I am pumped for Monday’s game and think we may all be surprised.

Heyward will get the DL straightened out.
Watt needs to take the bull by the horns with linebackers!
Haden needs to light a fire on the secondary’s ass!

We may even see 12 defensive points.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:49 pm 
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FC wrote:
Quote:
You can't make it much simpler than what they've been running


Actually schematically the Steelers are one of the most advanced defenses in the NFL.

They check in and out of zones
They pass off receivers
Flips coverages
Flip sides of overload blitzes

LeBeau stuff with a sprinkle of Tomlin.

The results are what they are. Players and scheme have failed

The Steelers defense looks like shit for many reasons.

-They are afraid to play the run with 7....Steelers wont even attempt it this season.
-They dont trust the safeties in coverage
-The Steelers 3rd and 4th corners cannot play outside in the NFL...Down the line may be Sutton can
-The Steelers linebackers can only do so much in coverage. Watt and Dupree do decent jobs when situations are simplified...Cover the back...Cover the tight end...You have the flat and get under the curl. Bostic had a rough game against the Chiefs...I think he could cover better with a definded role or specific guy to cover

-Non existent pass rush. Poor play from Tuitt Heyward Hargrave Walton.

The Steelers scheme is sound...Its utilization of players in the scheme. The Steelers defensive staff must find ways to put defenders in positions to succeed. TJ Watt and Bud Dupree should be playing downhill/upfield 65-75% of the time. Burns Haden Davis play best in man coverage. The Steelers defenders cannot counter punch...The Football IQ isnt there. No James Farriors No Ryan Clarks. No Clark Haggans NO TP's No Deebos rolling around this defense. The Steelers don't have the horses to win the race that Butler is trying to run

IMO the Steelers defense only chance at success is Man Coverage and heavy blitz packages

I am bringing at least 6 every single down...Every defender has a defined role and a job to do.

Me? I'm running Cover 2 man under and only rushing 4, unless a back or TE stays in to block. It is the simplest coverage. By far. Every receiver is covered by a man and there are two safeties deep to help. It opens you up to QB scrambles but that's not a big issue this week or next. Cover 2 man under for a couple of weeks to right the ship.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:51 pm 
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Ice wrote:
The overall lack of push by the D-line definitely puts tremendous pressure on the rest of the D, as well.

Steelers lead the NF of L in pressure percentage, 40.7% of dropbacks.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:53 pm 
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Stallworth16 wrote:
After 2 games, the Steelers are:
30th in run defense,
14th in pass defense,
28th in points per game.

FC good post.

I can't tell you how much I hate the NFL's contextless yards-based rankings. Not only does it reward teams who give up 4 yards on 2nd down more than a team who gives up 16 on 3rd and 18, it doesn't take the strength of the opponent into account.

DVOA:

Steelers D is 25th in DVOA, adjusted for opponent:
21st vs pass (17% worse than average)
27th vs run (5.2% worse than average)

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:55 pm 
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it's still yggy wrote:
Greg cosell on cowherd said he couldn’t remember a game where there were more defensive breakdowns than that chiefs.

He went as far as saying he can’t evaluate mahomes truthfully because steelers D was so bad you have to see him against a real D.

The first TD to Kelce was just an unstoppable route/throw. The coverage wasn't great but even if it were, that throw is beating it.

The first TD, the Hill TD, the long plays to Watkins and Hill, and especially the second Kelce TD... just horrendous.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:57 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Ice wrote:
Never mind a play like JH in XLIII, where not only does he know where he's supposed to be, but he knows that Warner knows and instead does the opposite. That's mastery level.


You're talking apples-and-oranges.

I'm talking about a defense incapable of running simpler concepts, that routinely looks lost and confused. That is NOT reflective of NFL-caliber coaching.

Some people communicate much, much more effectively than others. Bad teachers have a narrow window their message gets thru. Good teachers can not only present something many different ways effectively, they're able to identify when a different approach is needed and what that technique is.

It's been discussed plenty here. There's ample evidence that they are not coaching up/developing players on defense. Who on this team in Tomlin's tenure would you say had significant improvement after year 2? Gilbert? Jesse James? Vince Williams?



Pretty decent improvement in my humble opinion:
Running Backs
Wide Receivers
Offensive Line
QB

Bad News:
Secondary-has a new coach, but they were definitely stagnant for many cycles.
Linebackers coaches need to go. Porter first then Jerry if you can only get rid of 1.
D-Line-has new coach, but there seemed to be little coaching and teaching for many cycles too.

Let’s see what Drake, Bradley and Dunbar can do this year. Hopefully, Brown’s perceived ills don’t have anything to do with Drake.

Special teams- Hit or miss. Get rid of the kick return take the cheap 25 and use the extra time on the rest of special teams. Get a punting coach and punter....been missing since Sepulveda and his ligaments.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:59 pm 
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This is encouraging if true. I’ve often noticed players just before the snap communicating with each other and looking as if they are unsure of who’s supposed to do what on the play, many times those big plays follow.

This can be a solid defense if they can find a way to make offenses earn every first.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:04 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Ice wrote:
The overall lack of push by the D-line definitely puts tremendous pressure on the rest of the D, as well.

Steelers lead the NF of L in pressure percentage, 40.7% of dropbacks.


50% of that stat (more, really, due to the full 15 minutes of overtime) is heavily influenced by a Clowns left tackle whose pass blocking isn't NFL caliber and a Clowns QB that most of the time held the ball long enough to make Roethlisberger look like Tom Brady by comparison, no?


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:05 pm 
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T.W. wrote:
This is encouraging if true. I’ve often noticed players just before the snap communicating with each other and looking as if they are unsure of who’s supposed to do what on the play, many times those big plays follow.

This can be a solid defense if they can find a way to make offenses earn every first.


I believe the words you're looking for are "blade of grass."


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