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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:55 pm 
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it's still yggy wrote:
Greg cosell on cowherd said he couldn’t remember a game where there were more defensive breakdowns than that chiefs.

He went as far as saying he can’t evaluate mahomes truthfully because steelers D was so bad you have to see him against a real D.

The first TD to Kelce was just an unstoppable route/throw. The coverage wasn't great but even if it were, that throw is beating it.

The first TD, the Hill TD, the long plays to Watkins and Hill, and especially the second Kelce TD... just horrendous.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:57 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Ice wrote:
Never mind a play like JH in XLIII, where not only does he know where he's supposed to be, but he knows that Warner knows and instead does the opposite. That's mastery level.


You're talking apples-and-oranges.

I'm talking about a defense incapable of running simpler concepts, that routinely looks lost and confused. That is NOT reflective of NFL-caliber coaching.

Some people communicate much, much more effectively than others. Bad teachers have a narrow window their message gets thru. Good teachers can not only present something many different ways effectively, they're able to identify when a different approach is needed and what that technique is.

It's been discussed plenty here. There's ample evidence that they are not coaching up/developing players on defense. Who on this team in Tomlin's tenure would you say had significant improvement after year 2? Gilbert? Jesse James? Vince Williams?



Pretty decent improvement in my humble opinion:
Running Backs
Wide Receivers
Offensive Line
QB

Bad News:
Secondary-has a new coach, but they were definitely stagnant for many cycles.
Linebackers coaches need to go. Porter first then Jerry if you can only get rid of 1.
D-Line-has new coach, but there seemed to be little coaching and teaching for many cycles too.

Let’s see what Drake, Bradley and Dunbar can do this year. Hopefully, Brown’s perceived ills don’t have anything to do with Drake.

Special teams- Hit or miss. Get rid of the kick return take the cheap 25 and use the extra time on the rest of special teams. Get a punting coach and punter....been missing since Sepulveda and his ligaments.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:59 pm 
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This is encouraging if true. I’ve often noticed players just before the snap communicating with each other and looking as if they are unsure of who’s supposed to do what on the play, many times those big plays follow.

This can be a solid defense if they can find a way to make offenses earn every first.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:04 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Ice wrote:
The overall lack of push by the D-line definitely puts tremendous pressure on the rest of the D, as well.

Steelers lead the NF of L in pressure percentage, 40.7% of dropbacks.


50% of that stat (more, really, due to the full 15 minutes of overtime) is heavily influenced by a Clowns left tackle whose pass blocking isn't NFL caliber and a Clowns QB that most of the time held the ball long enough to make Roethlisberger look like Tom Brady by comparison, no?


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:05 pm 
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T.W. wrote:
This is encouraging if true. I’ve often noticed players just before the snap communicating with each other and looking as if they are unsure of who’s supposed to do what on the play, many times those big plays follow.

This can be a solid defense if they can find a way to make offenses earn every first.


I believe the words you're looking for are "blade of grass."


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:25 pm 
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Maybe now the team will be all on the same page in coverage


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:01 pm 
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Ice wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Ice wrote:
The overall lack of push by the D-line definitely puts tremendous pressure on the rest of the D, as well.

Steelers lead the NF of L in pressure percentage, 40.7% of dropbacks.


50% of that stat (more, really, due to the full 15 minutes of overtime) is heavily influenced by a Clowns left tackle whose pass blocking isn't NFL caliber and a Clowns QB that most of the time held the ball long enough to make Roethlisberger look like Tom Brady by comparison, no?

Somewhat, but they got pressures on Mahomes, too... he just got the ball out quickly and has great pocket presence and slid away from it.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:23 am 
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Hopefully it ends all of this crap.

https://steelersdepot.com/2018/09/keith-butler-admits-steelers-had-two-different-coverages-on-kelce-touchdown/


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:39 pm 
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Stallworth16 wrote:
After 2 games, the Steelers are:
30th in run defense,
14th in pass defense,
28th in points per game.

FC good post.


1st in fan base knowing they can't stop anyone
32nd in HC having accurate view of their effectiveness.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:56 pm 
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Playing man is fine except when you have Artie Burns getting beat off the first move of the WR like he did many times on Sunday. Burns is dumb and he isn't crafty the way Haden is using his arms, hands, and leverage to disrupt the WR.

I think our coaching sucks, but we also have dumb players. You can have both...and we do. Hilton, Edmunds, and Davis all made some bad choices Sunday. It seems like teams purposely scheme to situations where our safeties have to make a critical choice and they often choose wrong.

I agree we have to simplify the defense. I'd much rather have an offense know our D and go mano a mano....versus our D trying to confuse the QB and instead just blowing the coverage completely.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:14 pm 
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The problem is, no matter what you do schematically, at least one player is likely going to end up being put to that test by a halfway decent OC and/or QB. I'm not excusing the coaching here, just saying you can only scheme to protect so many links in the chain. It's what happened to the Pens on D last season, and it's what's been happening to the Steelers since Shazier went down.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:04 pm 
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franco32 wrote:
Playing man is fine except when you have Artie Burns getting beat off the first move of the WR like he did many times on Sunday. Burns is dumb and he isn't crafty the way Haden is using his arms, hands, and leverage to disrupt the WR.

I think our coaching sucks, but we also have dumb players. You can have both...and we do. Hilton, Edmunds, and Davis all made some bad choices Sunday. It seems like teams purposely scheme to situations where our safeties have to make a critical choice and they often choose wrong.

I agree we have to simplify the defense. I'd much rather have an offense know our D and go mano a mano....versus our D trying to confuse the QB and instead just blowing the coverage completely.

man with two deep safeties to help. It's not that complicated and it allows a guy like Burns to be aggressive AND to have a chance to use makeup speed if his misses off the line. It certainly cuts down on the confusion aspect.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Also, when Atlanta was in the red zone, late in the game vs Philly... ATL ran more or less the same 4 verts concepts 4 times in a row. Philly played... I shit you not... cover 7. They had 7 guys in a line near the goal line-- ultimately, since ATL ran its receivers straight up the field, they doubled the two seam routes. They ran that defense on 2nd 3rd and 4th down, and would have stopped them but for a silly illegal contact foul on 4th down. Then on 1st and goal with seconds remaining, they came out in the same cover 7 look, but switched to man under cover 2 when ATL motioned to a less balanced look.

That stuff is so much easier to comprehend, when you're a defender. Your job is simple.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:10 pm 
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Artie is about making as little contact as possible to protect his perceived CTE condition. Dump him.

franco32 wrote:
Playing man is fine except when you have Artie Burns getting beat off the first move of the WR like he did many times on Sunday. Burns is dumb and he isn't crafty the way Haden is using his arms, hands, and leverage to disrupt the WR.

I think our coaching sucks, but we also have dumb players. You can have both...and we do. Hilton, Edmunds, and Davis all made some bad choices Sunday. It seems like teams purposely scheme to situations where our safeties have to make a critical choice and they often choose wrong.

I agree we have to simplify the defense. I'd much rather have an offense know our D and go mano a mano....versus our D trying to confuse the QB and instead just blowing the coverage completely.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:16 pm 
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There are things wrong right off the bat that make it more about scheme and more on the DC.

On that second kelce TD we have cover 2 as the call. Right off the bat it’s a bad call. C2 is going to vacate the middle of the field. The chiefs #1 receiving target is the TE. The TE is going to run that seam/ skinny post exactly where the weakside S would be expected to cover the deeper wr route.

It’s basically the one thing that you can’t do there.

So yeah simplify. For the players sake and the coaches sake too.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:29 pm 
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it's still yggy wrote:
There are things wrong right off the bat that make it more about scheme and more on the DC.

On that second kelce TD we have cover 2 as the call. Right off the bat it’s a bad call. C2 is going to vacate the middle of the field. The chiefs #1 receiving target is the TE. The TE is going to run that seam/ skinny post exactly where the weakside S would be expected to cover the deeper wr route.

It’s basically the one thing that you can’t do there.

So yeah simplify. For the players sake and the coaches sake too.

C2 doesn't vacate the middle at all.. It tasks the middle backer with turning and running with seam #1. If Watt turns and runs with Kelce, that's likely an incompletion. The call is fine... the execution is terrible.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:42 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
it's still yggy wrote:
There are things wrong right off the bat that make it more about scheme and more on the DC.

On that second kelce TD we have cover 2 as the call. Right off the bat it’s a bad call. C2 is going to vacate the middle of the field. The chiefs #1 receiving target is the TE. The TE is going to run that seam/ skinny post exactly where the weakside S would be expected to cover the deeper wr route.

It’s basically the one thing that you can’t do there.

So yeah simplify. For the players sake and the coaches sake too.

C2 doesn't vacate the middle at all.. It tasks the middle backer with turning and running with seam #1. If Watt turns and runs with Kelce, that's likely an incompletion. The call is fine... the execution is terrible.


Disagree. Watt, maybe. Bostic maybe. VW, no. Shazier, yeah I’ll give you him.

To expect any LB to trail kelce in the red zone like that is a recipe for disaster. Plus none of the LB actually do that.

Without knowing the exact call and all the assignments what it looks like is the strong side S has that center zone.

Again I don’t know for sure. But it looks like Steelers D doesn’t know what they’re doing. Or maybe Andy Reid is playing chess and butler is playing checkers.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 3:57 pm 
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it's still yggy wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
it's still yggy wrote:
There are things wrong right off the bat that make it more about scheme and more on the DC.

On that second kelce TD we have cover 2 as the call. Right off the bat it’s a bad call. C2 is going to vacate the middle of the field. The chiefs #1 receiving target is the TE. The TE is going to run that seam/ skinny post exactly where the weakside S would be expected to cover the deeper wr route.

It’s basically the one thing that you can’t do there.

So yeah simplify. For the players sake and the coaches sake too.

C2 doesn't vacate the middle at all.. It tasks the middle backer with turning and running with seam #1. If Watt turns and runs with Kelce, that's likely an incompletion. The call is fine... the execution is terrible.


Disagree. Watt, maybe. Bostic maybe. VW, no. Shazier, yeah I’ll give you him.

To expect any LB to trail kelce in the red zone like that is a recipe for disaster. Plus none of the LB actually do that.

Without knowing the exact call and all the assignments what it looks like is the strong side S has that center zone.

Again I don’t know for sure. But it looks like Steelers D doesn’t know what they’re doing. Or maybe Andy Reid is playing chess and butler is playing checkers.

I'm talking classic cover 2... Lambert & Derrick Brooks & Brian Urlacher... or even Lawrence Timmons. This is what the job is in C2. ILB has to drop and carry #1 MOF receiver. He doesn't have to stop him on his own... just has to make it a tougher throw so that the safeties have a chance.

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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:25 pm 
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Quote:
Actually schematically the Steelers are one of the most advanced defenses in the NFL.


A few years back i was listening to some sports radio as they were talking about playoff match-ups etc. that were coming up. Steve Young was guest on air that day talking about the teams.

One thing in particular he said about the Steelers defense is that they run a schematicly complex defense. HOWEVER, he said it’s actually a simple defense to decipher if you know where to look.

Not a fan of Young myself but if you pair his comments with the number of times a relatively inexperienced QB has stepped onto the field and had success against the D it seems to have at least some validity.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:53 pm 
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It was worse than what Butler is admitting to. Check the score Keith.

Defensive coordinator Keith Butler admitted they were to trying to “do too much” after the Kansas City loss, and that they were going to adjust.
“I hope it’s simple enough for where they can run the defense and there wouldn’t be a problem,” Butler said, via Jeremy Fowler of ESPN.com. “Not that we had a bunch of these in-game, but we did have some guys running free a couple times. You saw a guy go down the middle, that was a lack of communication on the field. We have to do a better job of that, and we as coaches have to do a better job of coaching these guys and making sure they are comfortable in what we are doing.”


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:25 pm 
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Jeff Hanisch-USA TODAY Sports


The Pittsburgh Steelers were shellacked at home when the Kansas City Chiefs put up 42-points on the defense, and while no one wants to continue to re-hash that game, sometimes looking back can help you understand some of the decisions made, and what might be coming in the future.

Obviously, with the way the game played out in Week 2, I focused on the snap totals for the defense. I wanted to see who dominated the playing time on the defensive side of the ball, and what it all might mean.

When I looked up the snap totals, I was shocked to see there were very few players who played the vast majority of the game. Sure, Sean Davis, Artie Burns and Vince Williams all played 100-percent of the snaps (58 total), but other than this trio, it was a mixed bag of goods.

In the secondary, the Steelers deployed Morgan Burnett for 52 snaps, while rookie Terrell Edmunds played 32 snaps. At cornerback, filling in for Joe Haden, the Steelers used Coty Sensabaugh and Cameron Sutton the exact amount — 29 snaps a piece.

What was truly unique to me were the numbers for Mike Hilton and Jon Bostic. Bostic has been the linebacker who comes off the field during sub packages, and Hilton is the first defensive back on the field in these situations.

Hilton logged 42 snaps, with Bostic just 31. In other words, the Steelers deployed a lot of sub packages, as usual, against the Chiefs in Week 2. This is a direct correlation to the number of snaps seen by Edmunds, who didn’t start in Week 2 as he did in Week 1. The increase in sub packages also resulted in just 17 snaps for nose tackle Javon Hargrave.

While fans don’t want to hear it, defensive coordinator Keith Butler tried almost every combination at his disposal to see if there was something which would work in slowing down the Kansas City offense. If you watch the film he used a lot of nickel, dime and even the ‘dollar’ package on a few occasions. He tried both zone and man coverage, and it all ended with the same result — failure.

The Steelers threw the kitchen sink at the Chiefs, and it didn’t matter. Here is to hoping the team can find an equation which works, and they stick to it in Week 3 when they play the red-hot Tampa Bay Buccaneers on Monday Night Football.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 6:41 am 
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This BS keeps going on and on. Fire Butler.

Steelers attempt to address communication issues on defense

By: Chris Adamski, Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

Receivers running wide open down the field — not just once, but on multiple occasions.

Confused players sprinting onto the field, getting into alignment just before the ball was snapped. Other times, a similar frantic run was stopped as an annoyed teammate shooed him back to the sideline.

Communication issues, by the defensive coordinator’s own admission, not just among the secondary but within the front seven as well.

To put it bluntly: It wasn’t just the final score that was ugly for the Pittsburgh Steelers defense in last week’s 42-37 loss to the Kansas City Chiefs.

It’s difficult to pin down a worst moment for coordinator Keith Butler’s crew last Sunday. But when half of the defense was running one scheme and another half was in a different set during a first-quarter snap deep in Steelers territory, the result was an easy Travis Kelce 19-yard touchdown.

“We have a quarterback on the (defense), and we always have to play what he is playing,” Butler said. “Even if he is wrong, we all have to be wrong. We all have to be ‘wrong,’ and we will be right if we do that.

“I know that doesn’t make sense to y’all, but it makes sense to our guys.”

Steelers fans watching some of the carnage might think the defensive calls weren’t making sense.

The defense was facing one of the NFL’s better offenses in the Chiefs, and its issues ranged well beyond communication. But the players and coaches on the unit themselves acknowledged confusion was a significant factor in allowing three times as many touchdowns (six) as punts (two) during Kansas City’s 11 meaningful drives.

It’s an issue that must be addressed by Monday when the Steelers face a Tampa Bay team that leads the league in total yards (482.5) and passing yards (405.0) per game and is second in scoring at 37.5.

“Everybody needs to be talking, linebackers and safeties, making sure the linebackers and the D-linemen hear it,” cornerback Joe Haden said. “So it’s just echoing the calls. I think that’s about it (to fix the issues).”


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:47 pm 
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Quote:
“I mean, we got caught a couple of times and people were playing different things,” Butler told Labriola. “I think sometimes we tried to do too much as players instead of just doing their job and trusting the guy next to him to do his job. And if we do that then we play good football. When we don’t do that is when we don’t play good football and I think we did a little bit too much of that in the Kansas City game.”

“Always, always, as a coach, I mean, yeah,” Butler said. “I played for 10 years, I had to make all those calls and all that stuff but there’s some things you need to do, you have to do, in terms of trying to get into the best defense that you possibly can get in and if your players can handle it. And most of the time our players can handle it. And I’m not saying they didn’t handle it in Kansas City, I think we made some mistakes where we all weren’t on the same page all the time.

“My thing with those guys at the time was, that’s fine, or they hit something on us and then we try to do too much. We try to compensate for a bad part or a deficiency in the defense instead of just playing the defense like you’re supposed to play it and doing what you’re supposed to do so that the guy next to you can count on you being in a position where you should be when you should be. So, that’s the biggest thing for us.”
How can you sit there bold-faced and admit to your Epic Failures? I guess it implies integrity? Mortifying...


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:53 pm 
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Now Cooty will be in for CTE. I smell more communication issue excuses.


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 Post subject: Re: Steelers simplifing D more
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:32 am 
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The Steelers defense can’t play. It has potential to be ruinous. Its problems are many, and they are great.

The Steelers missed 17 tackles in last Sunday’s home loss to the Kansas City Chiefs. That’s mind-boggling. That’s a failing grade in Football 101. If that doesn’t resolve itself organically, it won’t resolve itself. NFL teams barely wear pads in practice anymore, let alone work on tackling. Tackling can’t be fine-tuned.

The defense doesn’t have many (any) strengths. A 3-4 base relies on solid linebackers. That’s been a Steelers strength since adopting the 3-4.
It’s far from being a strong point now.

Vince Williams is average (or worse) now that he’s not partnered inside with Ryan Shazier. T.J. Watt has potential but needs consistency. If Bud Dupree isn’t yet a bust, he’s staking his claim.

The linebackers are bad. That’s a big reason the defense is bad.


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