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 Post subject: Re: Love this chess match between Bell and Colbert/Rooney...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:46 pm 
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TB wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Havoc: three HUGE factors

1. run blocking is better than last year
2. the persistence in running into stacks is lessened in 2018
3. the offense is more diverse without Bell/Haley

Conner has maximized his ability, and that's fantastic. At some point, like the 4th outfielder filling in for Barry Bonds, given enough ABs he's going to come to earth, and he's always likely to struggle running vs a truly good run defense.


I wasn't a Conner fan coming into this season, but I would question the second point there.

https://triblive.com/sports/steelers/14195767-74/four-downs-opponents-stacking-line-vs-steelers-and-james-conners-still-succeeding

40 of Conner's 103 rushing attempts have come against 8 men in the box. 3rd highest rate in the NFL. For comparison's sake, Todd Gurley only sees 8 men in the box 10% of the time. Bell at 20% last year. He's running against stacked defenses and still putting up a Pro Bowl caliber season.

I do think you make a great point about a 4th outfielder filling in. You see that a lot in football when a backup comes in and plays at 110% of what they're normally capable of for a few games. But over the course of a long NFL season they can't sustain it and break down. I could see that happening to Conner, but through 6 games he's running just as strong as ever. Maybe he hasn't hit his ceiling yet? When you have his kind of drive and work ethic, who knows? Look at how he's massively improved as a receiver from last year to this year.

Either way, as someone who wanted the Steelers to re-sign Bell, fuck him. I hold onto Bell this year to ride the pine just in case Conner gets hurt. You don't bench a guy who is playing at a Pro Bowl level to bring in a guy who hasn't played a football game in 10 months. Bell took a risk and Conner made the most out of the opportunity presented to him. Tough shit, LB.

I heard that stat this week. The Steelers are definitely not running it as much in obvious running situations from obvious formations. We were running a FB and an extra tackle on 1st and 10 last year-- hell, we ran it vs 9 in the box.

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 Post subject: Re: Love this chess match between Bell and Colbert/Rooney...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:49 pm 
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If James Conner played for a team with a lesser OL, a pedestrian QB, and a team not so concerned with balance, he would be an afterthought, who plays hard when he's in as part of a 2-3 RB rotation.

I'm not hating on the guy... he's played well and above his head this year. But let's not get crazy about where he fits in the scheme of things, just because we are justifiably down on Bell.

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 Post subject: Re: Love this chess match between Bell and Colbert/Rooney...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:16 pm 
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But on this team, Conner has been a bright spot and in my view that is the point. I don't care about what he can't do on a crappy team. The giants offense sucks with Barkley.

Conner's skillset at least to this point has been a great fit for the Steelers.


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 Post subject: Re: Love this chess match between Bell and Colbert/Rooney...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:19 pm 
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That's true. Haley's dumbass would bring in an extra OT as the third TE and a FB on first and 10 and run it 8 times in a row.

But still, I think we're somewhat predictable when we're running the ball. And that might have more to do with Conner's style and what sets he runs best out of. I wonder if the lack of a deep passing game at this point is part of it as well. It's not like we've got a Mike Wallace or Martavis Bryant out there.

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 Post subject: Re: Love this chess match between Bell and Colbert/Rooney...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:24 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
If James Conner played for a team with a lesser OL, a pedestrian QB, and a team not so concerned with balance, he would be an afterthought, who plays hard when he's in as part of a 2-3 RB rotation.

I'm not hating on the guy... he's played well and above his head this year. But let's not get crazy about where he fits in the scheme of things, just because we are justifiably down on Bell.

We are likely to see how Bell does with another QB and O-line. If he really is all about the Benjamins then he will end up with a team that has lots of cap space....meaning their QB is likely not highly paid and possibly average. If he is as good as he thinks he is he will still put up Barry Sanders like numbers but a more likely scenario is that he will be average to slightly above average.

He will get the money from some fool owner but I'll be shocked if he does anywhere near as good elsewhere. More likely the outcome will be like Barkley and the Giants.


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 Post subject: Re: Love this chess match between Bell and Colbert/Rooney...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:03 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Havoc: three HUGE factors

1. run blocking is better than last year
2. the persistence in running into stacks is lessened in 2018
3. the offense is more diverse without Bell/Haley

Conner has maximized his ability, and that's fantastic. At some point, like the 4th outfielder filling in for Barry Bonds, given enough ABs he's going to come to earth, and he's always likely to struggle running vs a truly good run defense.


Your 4th outfielder analogy is a possibility.

If Bell can get you 1 and a half yards more per carry vs a tough run defense... so what? I would rather have Conner's superior Y/R in the receiving game, more plays over 20 yards, superior rate of scoring TD's (we'll see if his TD rate continues). I'm not sweating what Conner can't do running vs a tough run defense. Throw the football, get Conner in space in the receiving game... that's where the easy yards are in today's game anyway. I value a RB's ability in the receiving game more than the run game in today's NFL. I like Conner in the receiving game more than Bell (at least to this point). Conner slashes thru running lanes at a faster rate than Bell which is what you need from a RB in the receiving game along with hand eye coordination and Conner's hands seem to be every bit as good as Bell's. If Conner turns out to be a 4th outfielder then I will see it different. If Conner wears down over the course of the season, that's on coaches, not Conner.

I do not care what Conner can't do with crappy players around him. That's not the team he plays for. I care about how his skillset translates in the current nfl with the players currently around him. Conner's skillset might be a better fit than Bell for our current roster in today's nfl.


Last edited by Havoc on Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Love this chess match between Bell and Colbert/Rooney...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:04 am 
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It's true that it only matters what he does with the talent around him in PIT... for now, because we have BR7.

The comparison isn't between Conner and Bell, it's between Conner and a combo of Conner and other more above average RBs with different skillsets or between Conner and an elite RB, say, in next year's draft.

It may be that Conner's qualities as a teammate and person make him worth keeping and playing over a more talented player. He's certainly earned the right to be starting now.

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 Post subject: Re: Love this chess match between Bell and Colbert/Rooney...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:54 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
It's true that it only matters what he does with the talent around him in PIT... for now, because we have BR7.

The comparison isn't between Conner and Bell, it's between Conner and a combo of Conner and other more above average RBs with different skillsets or between Conner and an elite RB, say, in next year's draft.

It may be that Conner's qualities as a teammate and person make him worth keeping and playing over a more talented player. He's certainly earned the right to be starting now.


That's where I fall. Bell is definitely the more talented player, it's not even a question. There are very few backs in NFL history that have Bell's vision, instincts, and stop-and-go burst. He was putting together a possible HOF resume before he decided to sit out this year. But Bell lied to his teammates, misled the organization, and hurt the team. Fuck him. The only reason he should stay on this team is if Conner gets hurt, then you begrudgingly play Bell if he's in football shape. Otherwise, I'm going with the cancer survivor, great teammate, who doesn't have a shitty wannabe rap career and isn't out at the club every weekend, who is playing at a Pro Bowl level and unquestionably giving it his all for the team. Our locker room needs more James Conner's and less Le'Veon Bell's.

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 Post subject: Re: Love this chess match between Bell and Colbert/Rooney...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:57 am 
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TB wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
It's true that it only matters what he does with the talent around him in PIT... for now, because we have BR7.

The comparison isn't between Conner and Bell, it's between Conner and a combo of Conner and other more above average RBs with different skillsets or between Conner and an elite RB, say, in next year's draft.

It may be that Conner's qualities as a teammate and person make him worth keeping and playing over a more talented player. He's certainly earned the right to be starting now.


That's where I fall. Bell is definitely the more talented player, it's not even a question. There are very few backs in NFL history that have Bell's vision, instincts, and stop-and-go burst. He was putting together a possible HOF resume before he decided to sit out this year. But Bell lied to his teammates, misled the organization, and hurt the team. Fuck him. The only reason he should stay on this team is if Conner gets hurt, then you begrudgingly play Bell if he's in football shape. Otherwise, I'm going with the cancer survivor, great teammate, who doesn't have a shitty wannabe rap career and isn't out at the club every weekend, who is playing at a Pro Bowl level and unquestionably giving it his all for the team. Our locker room needs more James Conner's and less Le'Veon Bell's.

We need less cow Bell! 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Love this chess match between Bell and Colbert/Rooney...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:58 am 
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I know other owners and teams with lots of cap room are typically idiots, but why would you pay Bell (or any RB) that kind of scratch when recent history suggests that you don't need that generational talent at RB to reach the promise land? Look at Philly last year - rb by committee. Look at the Patriots - they have never ever had a top 5 rb. How many SB do they now have? No, smart teams don't spend that coin on a RB as it won't give you the winning edge. You draft a rb in the 2nd or 3rd round and find a good complimentary back. You spend your money on WR's , CB's, and pass rushers! (maybe a damn good tight end to boot). The Jets or Dolphins may be stupid enough to give Bell 20+ million, but I wouldn't hold my breath on that figure. I think Bell is hurting his stock quite a bit. As the season progresses, his stock will continue to decline as teams will see that the Steelers are winning without him (we just gotta keep winning). If we start losing, it won't be because our RB isn't getting 100 yards per game, it will be because our QB sucked or the defense sucked. (or we got totally out-coached)


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 Post subject: Re: Love this chess match between Bell and Colbert/Rooney...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:04 am 
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Look at Freeman in ATL; he got paid a year or so ago and now he's in the tub a lot. I think he realized he signed for too little and is looking to save his body some, for his next (bigger) contract.


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 Post subject: Re: Love this chess match between Bell and Colbert/Rooney...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:09 am 
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The irony is: Bell's best quality is his heart as a player.

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 Post subject: Re: Love this chess match between Bell and Colbert/Rooney...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:10 am 
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Aren’t we using the money we saved on Bell towards the pending Peterson signing?

:roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Love this chess match between Bell and Colbert/Rooney...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:57 pm 
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Perhaps, Bell should have googled the story of what happened to Wally Pipp before he decided to sit out.


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 Post subject: Re: Love this chess match between Bell and Colbert/Rooney...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:19 pm 
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trade deadline is a week from this Tuesday.....why would Bell sign before then?

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 Post subject: Re: Love this chess match between Bell and Colbert/Rooney...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:30 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
trade deadline is a week from this Tuesday.....why would Bell sign before then?


Deadline is irrelevant in a sense. Bell could demand a no trade clause be added to his contract prior to signing if he wanted to. Steelers could refuse to add it, but then Bell could just say cool see you after the deadline.

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 Post subject: Re: Love this chess match between Bell and Colbert/Rooney...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:47 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Kodiak wrote:
trade deadline is a week from this Tuesday.....why would Bell sign before then?


Deadline is irrelevant in a sense. Bell could demand a no trade clause be added to his contract prior to signing if he wanted to. Steelers could refuse to add it, but then Bell could just say cool see you after the deadline.


Never thought of that. I suppose you're right.

I won't root for Bell to wreck his knee while he's still a Steeler....but I might think about it :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Love this chess match between Bell and Colbert/Rooney...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:59 pm 
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Will the real Lev Bell please stand up.

So who are we going to get if he ends up on the field?

The back who balls out to prove himself and justify a phat contract?

Or the back who turtles and minimizes contact.

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 Post subject: Re: Love this chess match between Bell and Colbert/Rooney...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:15 am 
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You will get someone out of football shape and not ready to play for at least 2 weeks.

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 Post subject: Re: Love this chess match between Bell and Colbert/Rooney...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:26 am 
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So he can get paid money for nothing.


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