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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:11 am 
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tunch wrote:
I'm pretty sure I've never seen Tomlin win a game with the less-talented roster. Cowher was a shortdick but at least that '06 Indy team was really, really good.

Pederson, McVay, and BB are the clear Tier 1.

Andy Reid would be Tier 1 if he wasn't utter garbage in the fourth quarter. I also like the cut of Vrabel's jib but it's early.


Pederson has one Super Bowl and played the Patriots one time. That falls into the blind squirrel gets a nut eventually territory. And you can make the argument the only reason the Eagles won is because the NFAl Riveron changed the catch rule prior to the Super Bowl because of the Steeler loss to New England and the outrage.

McVay has not done shit yet!


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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:33 am 
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That's like a power ranking that must shift week to week with wins or losses. BB is the best coach in the NFL and it's not even close. If you had to chose one guy to coach for your team in one game, and your life depended on it.....who wouldya pick?!!! who? McVay? Payton? Or Belichik?

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 8:02 am 
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R S wrote:
That's like a power ranking that must shift week to week with wins or losses. BB is the best coach in the NFL and it's not even close. If you had to chose one guy to coach for your team in one game, and your life depended on it.....who wouldya pick?!!! who? McVay? Payton? Or Belichik?



BB by far.

However, there are a couple scenarios where I’d pick MT. One game where everyone is full power, PrimeTime night game and it is a December meaningful game, and Bill B. is not an option, I’d pick Tomlin. And I think that is why I rank him number 2.

Bill Belichick

grey area

Then the rest of the coaches.

Of course what happens to BB when TB leaves, or what happens to the Patriots when BB exits.


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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:30 pm 
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LakecrestSteeler wrote:
R S wrote:
That's like a power ranking that must shift week to week with wins or losses. BB is the best coach in the NFL and it's not even close. If you had to chose one guy to coach for your team in one game, and your life depended on it.....who wouldya pick?!!! who? McVay? Payton? Or Belichik?



BB by far.

However, there are a couple scenarios where I’d pick MT. One game where everyone is full power, PrimeTime night game and it is a December meaningful game, and Bill B. is not an option, I’d pick Tomlin. And I think that is why I rank him number 2.

Bill Belichick

grey area

Then the rest of the coaches.

Of course what happens to BB when TB leaves, or what happens to the Patriots when BB exits.


So you're saying there is no scenario where you'd take Tomlin?

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:35 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
Ice wrote:
Tied for 10th seems pretty fair, particularly if you shift Bowles above him. You don't tie the Browns and get the shit kicked out of you at home by the Raisins without repercussions.

The Raisins actually lost to the Browns.


The lows have been extraordinarily low this season.


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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Poltargyst wrote:
Ice wrote:
Tied for 10th seems pretty fair, particularly if you shift Bowles above him. You don't tie the Browns and get the shit kicked out of you at home by the Raisins without repercussions.

The Raisins actually lost to the Browns.


The lows have been extraordinarily low this season.

What???

The Steelers lost to the best team in the NFL. By 5.

They lost to a division rival with the #2 Defense in the NFL, who took advantage of their weaknesses, some of which have been addressed since then.

They tied a division rival who had the game circled on their calendar for 9 months, and in a driving monsoon that likely evened the playing field a great deal.

NE lost to Jacksonville-- the only really good defense they've played and to Detroit, who is easily one of the worst 5 teams in the NFL.

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:14 pm 
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The Chiefs aren't the best team in the NFL.

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:14 pm 
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LakecrestSteeler wrote:
tunch wrote:
I'm pretty sure I've never seen Tomlin win a game with the less-talented roster. Cowher was a shortdick but at least that '06 Indy team was really, really good.

Pederson, McVay, and BB are the clear Tier 1.

Andy Reid would be Tier 1 if he wasn't utter garbage in the fourth quarter. I also like the cut of Vrabel's jib but it's early.


Pederson has one Super Bowl and played the Patriots one time. That falls into the blind squirrel gets a nut eventually territory. And you can make the argument the only reason the Eagles won is because the NFAl Riveron changed the catch rule prior to the Super Bowl because of the Steeler loss to New England and the outrage.

McVay has not done shit yet!


The better argument is Pederson knew he was playing with house money and just went balls out and rode the wave. That is a damn good coaching job. Epic even. Tell me the coaches that have won super bowls with a backup QB? None of them were blind squirrels.

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:19 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
The Chiefs aren't the best team in the NFL.

I beg to differ.

They're certainly Top 3.

they lost a FG game, on the road, to NE... mostly because they scored in one play and didn't have the chance to kill the clock

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:49 pm 
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SteelPro wrote:
LakecrestSteeler wrote:
tunch wrote:
I'm pretty sure I've never seen Tomlin win a game with the less-talented roster. Cowher was a shortdick but at least that '06 Indy team was really, really good.

Pederson, McVay, and BB are the clear Tier 1.

Andy Reid would be Tier 1 if he wasn't utter garbage in the fourth quarter. I also like the cut of Vrabel's jib but it's early.


Pederson has one Super Bowl and played the Patriots one time. That falls into the blind squirrel gets a nut eventually territory. And you can make the argument the only reason the Eagles won is because the NFAl Riveron changed the catch rule prior to the Super Bowl because of the Steeler loss to New England and the outrage.

McVay has not done shit yet!


The better argument is Pederson knew he was playing with house money and just went balls out and rode the wave. That is a damn good coaching job. Epic even. Tell me the coaches that have won super bowls with a backup QB? None of them were blind squirrels.

I would agree that Pederson did a great job of coaching last year up to and including the Super Bowl win but that one season run does not put him in the top tier of NFL coaches.

I can't stand BB but he is clearly the best coach in the NFL he record since joining the Pats in 2000 speaks for itself - consistency & titles matter. The sad thing is that he probably never needed to cheat to be one of if not the best coach but he still did so his legacy will always be somewhat tainted.

As for the so called Second Tier there is actually pretty big list and there are really two groups:

Long Timers - There are 7 current coaches other than BB hired in 2010 or before. Five of them (Tomlin, Payton, Carroll, McCarthy & Harbaugh) have each won one Lombardi and the first three have played in multiple Super Bowls. Each has had success and each has had down times as a coach but a case can be made that those five are all in the Second Tier. You could also make a case for Reid being in this group - even though he joined KC in 2013 he had a long tenure with the Iggles before that and reached but did not win a Super Bowl. Rivera as a 2011 hire might be in the 2nd tier as well with 1 SB appearance and and playoff berths in 4 seasons but his overall record is below all of the others in this group so I'd put him at the bottom of Tier 2. The other two long timers are Marvin Lewis & Jason Garrett and it is fair to ask why either still has a job.

Newbie Winners - Pederson is clearly in this list based on last year. In addition I would include McVay, Zimmer & Quinn. It's too soon with those to find out what their ups & downs will look lik but their initial few seasons have been strong. There are a few others like Marone & Vrabel that might be here as well but it is just too soon to tell.

Those two lists include 10 I'd consider solid 2nd Tier, one borderline (Rivera) and 2 maybes. Within that group of 10 a case can be made for each of the coaches to be in the top 5 almost as easily as the case can be made for them to be in the 6-10 range.

There are plenty of things about Tomlin that have me throwing things at the TV nearly every game (and at my PC between games). That said, given the choice, I'm not sure who else other than BB I can honestly say is enough better to warrant a change. I just wish Tomlin was better at learning from his mistakes (time management & challenges get me the most) - if he learned better he could easily be solidly in the top 5 and likely 2 or 3 consistently. By this time in his coaching career it is unlikely he will change significantly but you never know. If you'd have told me Cowher would coming out throwing against both the Colts & Broncos in January 2006 I'd have said you were nuts but he did and he finally got his title. Tomlin has started playing younger players sooner and that was a huge shift so perhaps there is hope.


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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:21 pm 
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Whoever composed that list was no coachsmiff.

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:18 pm 
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Stillerz Bar wrote:
I would agree that Pederson did a great job of coaching last year up to and including the Super Bowl win but that one season run does not put him in the top tier of NFL coaches.

I can't stand BB but he is clearly the best coach in the NFL he record since joining the Pats in 2000 speaks for itself - consistency & titles matter. The sad thing is that he probably never needed to cheat to be one of if not the best coach but he still did so his legacy will always be somewhat tainted.

As for the so called Second Tier there is actually pretty big list and there are really two groups:

Long Timers - There are 7 current coaches other than BB hired in 2010 or before. Five of them (Tomlin, Payton, Carroll, McCarthy & Harbaugh) have each won one Lombardi and the first three have played in multiple Super Bowls. Each has had success and each has had down times as a coach but a case can be made that those five are all in the Second Tier. You could also make a case for Reid being in this group - even though he joined KC in 2013 he had a long tenure with the Iggles before that and reached but did not win a Super Bowl. Rivera as a 2011 hire might be in the 2nd tier as well with 1 SB appearance and and playoff berths in 4 seasons but his overall record is below all of the others in this group so I'd put him at the bottom of Tier 2. The other two long timers are Marvin Lewis & Jason Garrett and it is fair to ask why either still has a job.

Newbie Winners - Pederson is clearly in this list based on last year. In addition I would include McVay, Zimmer & Quinn. It's too soon with those to find out what their ups & downs will look lik but their initial few seasons have been strong. There are a few others like Marone & Vrabel that might be here as well but it is just too soon to tell.

Those two lists include 10 I'd consider solid 2nd Tier, one borderline (Rivera) and 2 maybes. Within that group of 10 a case can be made for each of the coaches to be in the top 5 almost as easily as the case can be made for them to be in the 6-10 range.

There are plenty of things about Tomlin that have me throwing things at the TV nearly every game (and at my PC between games). That said, given the choice, I'm not sure who else other than BB I can honestly say is enough better to warrant a change. I just wish Tomlin was better at learning from his mistakes (time management & challenges get me the most) - if he learned better he could easily be solidly in the top 5 and likely 2 or 3 consistently. By this time in his coaching career it is unlikely he will change significantly but you never know. If you'd have told me Cowher would coming out throwing against both the Colts & Broncos in January 2006 I'd have said you were nuts but he did and he finally got his title. Tomlin has started playing younger players sooner and that was a huge shift so perhaps there is hope.

Nailed it; drop the mic! +1000


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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:28 pm 
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B2B, I'm glad you're seeing that silver lining. Stack a couple more wins after the bye and I'll be right there with you, but halftime of the Chefs game was a low, the Broons tie was a kick in the nuts that could have been averted, and getting blanked for 30 minutes by the Raisins was a major disappointment. I'm not saying there haven't been highs. Last two games look like an upswing. I'm holding out hope.


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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 2:08 am 
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Nice to see Jon Gruden at the bottom of the pile, tho.

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:23 am 
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Snip Snip
Quote:
Stop me if you’ve heard this before …

“Mike Tomlin has to be the WORST coach in the NFL when it comes to wasting his timeouts!”

So more proof that, as often as Steeler fans love to make wide-sweeping declarative statements about Tomlin, the truth is usually much more in the middle than they want to assume.

However, I would argue that — especially with Tomlin’s rotten challenge history of late — incorrect challenges may need to be included in the analysis.

https://triblive.com/sports/columnists/ ... ment-as-we

Interesting article.


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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:41 am 
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I still think there are a few times a season (last game containing an example) where Tomlin will throw a challenge because the play was maybe reasonably close and he was going to call a timeout anyway. Actually gets you extra timeout time, and only costs you one, is the way I assume he looks at it. If it's late in the game and he's got one to play with, I don't totally disagree with the strategy.


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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:29 am 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
Snip Snip
Quote:
Stop me if you’ve heard this before …

“Mike Tomlin has to be the WORST coach in the NFL when it comes to wasting his timeouts!”

So more proof that, as often as Steeler fans love to make wide-sweeping declarative statements about Tomlin, the truth is usually much more in the middle than they want to assume.

However, I would argue that — especially with Tomlin’s rotten challenge history of late — incorrect challenges may need to be included in the analysis.

https://triblive.com/sports/columnists/ ... ment-as-we

Interesting article.


I’d be more interested in an analysis of how Tomlin compares in the area of NOT calling timeouts when he should.

Last week would have been a possible example of bad timeout management in that direction had the Bungles not scored so quickly.

But my guess is the data there is very sparse, making a comparative analysis difficult.

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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:31 am 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
Snip Snip
Quote:
Stop me if you’ve heard this before …

“Mike Tomlin has to be the WORST coach in the NFL when it comes to wasting his timeouts!”

So more proof that, as often as Steeler fans love to make wide-sweeping declarative statements about Tomlin, the truth is usually much more in the middle than they want to assume.

However, I would argue that — especially with Tomlin’s rotten challenge history of late — incorrect challenges may need to be included in the analysis.

https://triblive.com/sports/columnists/ ... ment-as-we

Interesting article.


Best line in the article is “At any rate, it appears that the author proved the point he was trying to make, which was no team has burned more timeouts outside of those high leverage areas than the Packers in 2018”

Proof that you can make data say what you want.

If you need to use a timeout on the first drive of every game of the year, and it is effective, then that was a genius use of timeouts.

If you use three timeouts in the 3rd and you win the game, the coach is a genius!

Using a database with timeouts and a time stamp is pretty lame analysis if you ask me.

How about timeout, time stamp, next play’s results. And then what about time of possession and your defense sucking wind because they have been on the field all day, but only allowed 9 points. I would use 3 timeouts before the 2 minute warning if needed.

I get he is talking about high leverage areas of the games, but if you use your timeouts for other things, maybe you don’t get in high leverage areas.


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 Post subject: Re: Head Coach Ranking - Where's Mikey T?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:42 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
Steelafan77 wrote:
Snip Snip
Quote:
Stop me if you’ve heard this before …

“Mike Tomlin has to be the WORST coach in the NFL when it comes to wasting his timeouts!”

So more proof that, as often as Steeler fans love to make wide-sweeping declarative statements about Tomlin, the truth is usually much more in the middle than they want to assume.

However, I would argue that — especially with Tomlin’s rotten challenge history of late — incorrect challenges may need to be included in the analysis.

https://triblive.com/sports/columnists/ ... ment-as-we

Interesting article.


I’d be more interested in an analysis of how Tomlin compares in the area of NOT calling timeouts when he should.

Last week would have been a possible example of bad timeout management in that direction had the Bungles not scored so quickly.

But my guess is the data there is very sparse, making a comparative analysis difficult.


Every fanbase bitches about the use of timeouts and the challenges, so Tomlin isn't any better/worse amongst his coaching peers. Not saying NFL coaches could do a better job (bc they certainly CAN).

What people should be worried about is Tomlin's game philosophy and game management (I'm not talking about timeouts). He boasts one of the best QB's and offenses in the game, yet has shown the proclivity to negate that advantage by slowing the game down and not being aggressive from the start or delivering the death blows to his opponents when able.

They should also be concerned about his personnel usage. Riding RB's wheels off. Not giving game experience to unproven guys to see if they are capable.

Those types of things are and were more critical to this team's underachievement through the years.
We're creaming our pants at finally getting a couple of wins at this juncture- how fucking pathetic is that for a supposed SB contender?

Tomlin will get depants-ed again on national TV during the playoffs and everyone will shrug their shoulders and make excuses about the weather or the health of his team or that the pregame meal wasn't hot enough.


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