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 Post subject: Re: Shazier guy, or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:15 am 
Luca Brasi wrote:
Can we at least give RS a chance before crucifying him? Holy fuck. Was i suprised when the Steelers selected him? Yes. Am i hoping he succeeds? Yes. Some here are openly hoping he fails, which i think is fucked up.


No doubt I'm the largest critic. I'm not hoping he fails. I'm being crystal clear on my opinion of his tape. We are 8-8 twice in a row...I find irrational exuberance and cheerleader like optimism much more off putting then the mediocre truth. I will obviously live or die with this opinion and I trust what I saw on tape.


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 Post subject: Re: Shazier guy, or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:50 am 
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Whether it was the OP's intention or not, this thread invited Zivco. Zivco does not like Shazier. He didn't like him prior to the Steelers drafting him. It was well documented to say the least before the recent board crash.

You guys that are sooo upset about Zivco's opinion on the player are hilarious. Clean the sand out of your vaginas.

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 Post subject: Re: Shazier guy, or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:29 am 
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Zivco wrote:
VeritasSteel wrote:
Timmons gets a lot of blame on this site and all his done is shown up and played


I'm not close to Timmons largest critic...but it is ridiculous what we are paying him. He is the largest ILB cap hit in the NFL...and over the last few years we get something like 3.5 sacks, 3 pass defensed, 3 tackles for loss, 2 picks, and inconsistent play vs the run...I think his average PFF rating over the contract is 12 ILB...Can't pay 10 million + for that.

VeritasSteel wrote:
I believe that explosive players who can cover that middle of the field like Shazier stop,those crazy RB dump offs and continued TE seam rapings.


Shaz has one career int at OSU. 4 passes defensed last year. And his angles...even to the flat...are horrible.

VeritasSteel wrote:
. Speed allows the cross dogs to actually get there. Heck now blitzes can truly come from anywhere.


Shaz is not a def win when isolated on a rb in pass pro on the blitz....he often fell down simply by contacting a linemen hip or leg on the blitz.

VeritasSteel wrote:
Front 7 looks like it could get our swagger back.


I don't give a shit about swagger...21 in rush defense and you have some swishy mfers on the field.


Did you think it was funny that foote was seeing a lot more action next to Timmons before he got hurt? If you were running an offense and you had a choice to put foote or Timmons on your RB or you want to ISO your TE on either who do you choose? Foote or whomever else is in there. So you throw numbers but you're not talking about what offenses see and what they scheme away from. We want numbers and information to justify our POV and most times miss nuances that people sometimes go a lifetime and never get.

I think that works into your comment on arm chair GMs. A guy making pics based on media outlets and scouring the internet is what the Bengals used to do. It's what the Browns do. Where is the success there. Bengals scouting department used to be 3 guys pretty much letting everyone else do the work, then just attending the combine and making picks on their best guesses. Not really effective.

The real value in having people who know talent and can see it no matter where it is, is it allows you to make better financial choices with your team. Many of us here would draft a guy because "Ben needs a weapon" when the entire defense is 2 years overdue for an overhaul. PS surprised many when TP came to this team and no one knew how dynamic he could be. If the same person who drafted him is saying he did it because he brings that same type of athleticism in a LBs body-- I'm at least going to observe him in a Pro Game before I consider him a bust. No one knew what Troy was capable of until he made plays in his first game and then our eyes were opened. Let's hope for the same thing from RS.

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 Post subject: Re: Shazier guy, or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:41 am 
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Y-Town Steel wrote:
Whether it was the OP's intention or not, this thread invited Zivco. Zivco does not like Shazier. He didn't like him prior to the Steelers drafting him. It was well documented to say the least before the recent board crash.

You guys that are sooo upset about Zivco's opinion on the player are hilarious. Clean the sand out of your vaginas.


Oh no! Not the man card! God help us, wouldnt want to be seen as not manly enough! I'll tell you what, I'll continue to call out posters that favor agendas and chest thumping above the team and just for you I'll don a tutu so you can grin ear to ear in your wife beater T collection.


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 Post subject: Re: Shazier guy, or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:04 pm 
VeritasSteel wrote:
Did you think it was funny that foote was seeing a lot more action next to Timmons before he got hurt? If you were running an offense and you had a choice to put foote or Timmons on your RB or you want to ISO your TE on either who do you choose? Foote or whomever else is in there. So you throw numbers but you're not talking about what offenses see and what they scheme away from. We want numbers and information to justify our POV and most times miss nuances that people sometimes go a lifetime and never get.


I find it funny that you think old, rickety ass Foote was any sort of solution.

VeritasSteel wrote:
I think that works into your comment on arm chair GMs. A guy making pics based on media outlets and scouring the internet is what the Bengals used to do. It's what the Browns do. Where is the success there. Bengals scouting department used to be 3 guys pretty much letting everyone else do the work, then just attending the combine and making picks on their best guesses. Not really effective.


I want my HC having final word in all my shopping. My thoughts on armchair QBs doing a better job is exactly because of the franchises like the ones you mentioned...no matter how many are employed I think nearly every post 80s great team has had two or less decision makers. This idea that the PS scouting staff are equally weighted or take some sort of vote is ridiculous.

VeritasSteel wrote:
The real value in having people who know talent and can see it no matter where it is, is it allows you to make better financial choices with your team. Many of us here would draft a guy because "Ben needs a weapon" when the entire defense is 2 years overdue for an overhaul. PS surprised many when TP came to this team and no one knew how dynamic he could be. If the same person who drafted him is saying he did it because he brings that same type of athleticism in a LBs body-- I'm at least going to observe him in a Pro Game before I consider him a bust. No one knew what Troy was capable of until he made plays in his first game and then our eyes were opened. Let's hope for the same thing from RS.


It was very clear what I prioritized before the draft. I have called him many things...but not a bust.

steelclan wrote:
Oh no! Not the man card! God help us, wouldnt want to be seen as not manly enough! I'll tell you what, I'll continue to call out posters that favor agendas and chest thumping above the team and just for you I'll don a tutu so you can grin ear to ear in your wife beater T collection.


And I'll continue to think of you as sliding and whining....


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 Post subject: Re: Shazier guy, or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:18 pm 
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I'll never forget the meltdown in the chat room that Thursday night. It was absolutely legendary. Right up there with the Sac of Steel meltdown on the old site.

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 Post subject: Re: Shazier guy, or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:21 pm 
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Zivco wrote:
Luca Brasi wrote:
Can we at least give RS a chance before crucifying him? Holy fuck. Was i suprised when the Steelers selected him? Yes. Am i hoping he succeeds? Yes. Some here are openly hoping he fails, which i think is fucked up.


No doubt I'm the largest critic. I'm not hoping he fails. I'm being crystal clear on my opinion of his tape. We are 8-8 twice in a row...I find irrational exuberance and cheerleader like optimism much more off putting then the mediocre truth. I will obviously live or die with this opinion and I trust what I saw on tape.


What you saw on tape? You mean his entire body of work to this point?

Wonder if they feel like he hasn't peaked yet?

Christ....if you're so good at evaluating talent send a resume into the Steelers.....you'd probably have to start at the bottom.....like pee wee football in Florida. ...but at least you would get your foot in the door.

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 Post subject: Re: Shazier guy, or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:31 pm 
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Obviously wrote:
I'll never forget the meltdown in the chat room that Thursday night. It was absolutely legendary. Right up there with the Sac of Steel meltdown on the old site.

Holy shit, Obviously...I am totally mesmerized by your sig pic(or whatever its called). I cant stop staring at her! :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Shazier guy, or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:21 pm 
BarryFoster wrote:
Christ....if you're so good at evaluating talent send a resume into the Steelers.....you'd probably have to start at the bottom.....like pee wee football in Florida. ...but at least you would get your foot in the door.


I'm fine with just Jesus. The only reason I go to pee wee football games is to eyeball the cheerleaders. I understand the process...and my complete inability to access it at any level at this point...so my wisdom must be contained by this message board...it will hardly be the first time in human history that the process has denied greatness. Perhaps in the future someone stumbles across these words and it's all Kafka/Van Gogh/Galileo/Poe..


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 Post subject: Re: Shazier guy, or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:22 pm 
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Of course Clan is a manly man, he's Scottish. They throw boulders and telephone poles for fun.

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 Post subject: Re: Shazier guy, or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:30 pm 
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Zivco wrote:
BarryFoster wrote:
Christ....if you're so good at evaluating talent send a resume into the Steelers.....you'd probably have to start at the bottom.....like pee wee football in Florida. ...but at least you would get your foot in the door.


I'm fine with just Jesus. The only reason I go to pee wee football games is to eyeball the cheerleaders. I understand the process...and my complete inability to access it at any level at this point...so my wisdom must be contained by this message board...it will hardly be the first time in human history that the process has denied greatness. Perhaps in the future someone stumbles across these words and it's all Kafka/Van Gogh/Galileo/Poe..



You go to pee wee football games to eyeball pee wee cheerleaders?

I think, or hope you meant pee wee players moms.


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 Post subject: Re: Shazier guy, or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:07 pm 
Luca Brasi wrote:
You go to pee wee football games to eyeball pee wee cheerleaders?

I think, or hope you meant pee wee players moms.


I thought the humor was obvious. I'm straight up legal tender...never got the milf thing though...even thinking about it feels treacherous...much prefer 20 to 35 even though I'm 44...most of gen Xer broads are complete bitches at this point even if they weren't years ago...the later boomer broads had a much more indulgent, selfish, fun loving approach to their 40s then the current crop of cunts who have replaced the F in milf with an S as in slap...and anyway the bloom is gone and the thickening of gravity has taken a firm hold by 35...40 on rare occasion...


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 Post subject: Re: Shazier guy, or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:04 pm 
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Zivco wrote:
I find it funny that you think old, rickety ass Foote was any sort of solution.


What is funny is that your read that in there in an attempt to be--- funny. What I said was Foote was making plays and having a career year because teams were forcing him to make plays because they were scheming away from Timmons.

Zivco wrote:
I want my HC having final word in all my shopping. My thoughts on armchair QBs doing a better job is exactly because of the franchises like the ones you mentioned...no matter how many are employed I think nearly every post 80s great team has had two or less decision makers. This idea that the PS scouting staff are equally weighted or take some sort of vote is ridiculous.


If you are having the HC make the final word, why even have a GM? Thats kind of a pussy way out. Then you can blame the coach for signing off on the pick. Coaches can suggest but as Parcells famously said "They arent letting us pick out the groceries" You ask your scouting department to go find guys and analyze them and give you information, youre not giving them a say in making the pick.

Zivco wrote:
It was very clear what I prioritized before the draft. I have called him many things...but not a bust.


So what did you prioritize before the draft? What were your reasons for these priorities? Did they allow for team scheme, personality, ability to sign this guy in the future, and the current and future cap implications?

We can dance around words and its your right to be critical of the pick. But you have been the most vocal in your critique based on opinion and relying your layman skills as a talent evaluator.No one can say he's going to be this or that, until he is or isnt making plays in games. Which is my point.

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 Post subject: Re: Shazier guy, or not?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:34 am 
VeritasSteel wrote:
What is funny is that your read that in there in an attempt to be--- funny. What I said was Foote was making plays and having a career year because teams were forcing him to make plays because they were scheming away from Timmons.


Foote played about a half game last season.

VeritasSteel wrote:
If you are having the HC make the final word, why even have a GM? Thats kind of a pussy way out. Then you can blame the coach for signing off on the pick. Coaches can suggest but as Parcells famously said "They arent letting us pick out the groceries" You ask your scouting department to go find guys and analyze them and give you information, youre not giving them a say in making the pick.


I think most of the staff is superfluous. I think it's the HC and GM that make the decision. I'm sure they have watched all the tape as well. I'm sure they listen to what others have to say about the picks. But ultimately only one guy can determine the pick...I want it to be the HC. It's his ass that's most on the line. Ultimately I believe that's what the situation is in Pittsburgh...as Tomlin has been quoted as having at least as much power in the draft as Colbert. I think mostly all SB winning HC's have that sort of authority.

VeritasSteel wrote:
So what did you prioritize before the draft? What were your reasons for these priorities? Did they allow for team scheme, personality, ability to sign this guy in the future, and the current and future cap implications?


I was clearly OT, ILB, CB. My first round OT's were gone...I would have selected Mosely. TP at ILB 50% of second half season snaps is plenty of reason. I obviously accounted for scheme and Saban called Mosely "the smartest player he ever coached". Contract 2 considerations are nonsense at the fail rate and I don't think there has been a hold out since the rookie cap.

VeritasSteel wrote:
We can dance around words and its your right to be critical of the pick. But you have been the most vocal in your critique based on opinion and relying your layman skills as a talent evaluator.No one can say he's going to be this or that, until he is or isnt making plays in games. Which is my point.


I don't label anyone a bust until year 3. This was a horrible pick. My "layman" skills seem to be doing better then the "experts" big boards the past 5 seasons. We'll see in August...


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 Post subject: Re: Shazier guy, or not?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:32 am 
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Zivco wrote:
I don't label anyone a bust until year 3. This was a horrible pick. My "layman" skills seem to be doing better then the "experts" big boards the past 5 seasons. We'll see in August...


Yeah, Veritas, get it right! He's not a bust (yet), just a horrible pick! :roll:

Where's the documentation to support this claim that you've been "doing better then the experts" at evaluating draft prospects for the past five years?


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 Post subject: Re: Shazier guy, or not?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:10 am 
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The Pierogi wrote:
Where's the documentation to support this claim that you've been "doing better then the experts" at evaluating draft prospects for the past five years?



I'm not making the case for or against Zivco, but from what I've seen there's a lot of "safety" in group think. By that I mean you can take consensus rankings, break them into a handful of groups, put them in a hat and do as well as the "people paid to do this for a living".

There was like 5 years in a row where PIT absolutely hit on R1 pick after R1 pick....Troy, Ben, Miller, Holmes...They looked like geniuses, then I guess reversion to the mean.

Put it this way.....if you're Colbert and you want to keep your job, you're never drafting AB in R1, for multiple reasons. Being an NFL GM is all about outrunning the guy next to you and not outrunning the bear.

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 Post subject: Re: Shazier guy, or not?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:08 am 
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I'm interested in the potential of the players we draft every year. I'm going to be curious to see how they do in the NFL. While I appreciate the opinions on how a player is going to fit from all corners, I'm going to wait and see with my own eyes.

I certainly hope that Shazier does well, it's SBI. I put SBI above all opinions.

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 Post subject: Re: Shazier guy, or not?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:26 am 
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I hope Shaz is another Kuechly with is basically the Troy archetype but of course bigger. As we all know that's much more than speed and athleticism, That's football instincts, toughness and nose for the ball. All indications is that he doesn't have it.

As for the draft from everything I saw I thought that we would take the #1 ILB with that being Mosley as the pick and said so pre-draft. Here's to Shaz being a a success and Mosley a failure because that's the cards we were dealt.

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 Post subject: Re: Shazier guy, or not?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 12, 2014 11:09 am 
The Pierogi wrote:
Yeah, Veritas, get it right! He's not a bust (yet), just a horrible pick!


You might not understand it...but I'm certain many do...it's fine to say about anything about a pick...except he's a bust, no chance to play in the NFL, about anything except he's a certain failure. For me, it's not superstition...it's acknowledging players like Hines Ward who really don't look like NFL players even after 2 years in the NFL. Now Ward was a later round pick that didn't have much receiver experience but it took 3 years for him to figure things out.

The Pierogi wrote:
Where's the documentation to support this claim that you've been "doing better then the experts" at evaluating draft prospects for the past five years?


I don't need no stinking documentation. Obviously that's something next to impossible to provide some sort of legitimate proof of life for. But last year I read an analysis of the final big boards of various draft gurus vs what the actual NFL did....and the "gurus" were nearly across the board superior. I really don't care about accuracy of mock drafts...what I'm interested in is the success rate of the top 100. So...the "experts" are doing better then the NFL, and I'm doing better then the "experts"...but you will have to take my word for it.

Kodiak wrote:
By that I mean you can take consensus rankings, break them into a handful of groups, put them in a hat and do as well as the "people paid to do this for a living".


Yep. That's better written then my names and rounds on lottery balls approach.

SteelerzEdsaL7 wrote:
As for the draft from everything I saw I thought that we would take the #1 ILB with that being Mosley as the pick and said so pre-draft. Here's to Shaz being a a success and Mosley a failure because that's the cards we were dealt.


Pretty much where I'm at. I can understand how an analyst can get sucked in by his speed. I get that they can improve his football IQ over time. I know they can hide some of his problems with taking on blockers to some degree. The thing that has me so negative is I flat out don't think he can tackle most NFL RBs and TEs one on one.


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