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 Post subject: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:39 am 
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The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette's Ed Bouchette expects the Steelers to draft a cornerback in the first three rounds.
Steelers beat writers seem convinced 32-year-old William Gay won't return, even though his salary is cheap ($2 million) and Gay's 2016 play was passable after he took over at slot corner early in the season. LCB Ross Cockrell is a restricted free agent, and Pittsburgh is short on depth behind him and RCB Artie Burns.
Source: Pittsburgh Post-Gazette Feb 14 - 9:41 PM


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The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette's Ed Bouchette expects the Steelers to retain Ladarius Green for 2017.
Bouchette believes "the decision has been made" and Green will stay on the roster, despite president Art Rooney II expressing uncertainty about Green's future after the season. "His health will determine what happens from there," Bouchette wrote. Green was a difference maker when healthy in 2016, averaging nearly 17 yards per catch but appearing in only six games. Concussion and ankle concerns will continue to cloud 26-year-old Green's fantasy future.
Source: Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

http://www.rotoworld.com/playernews/nfl/football/


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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:05 am 
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Surely I'm in the minority, but I'm glad Gree is coming back to camp.

His health makes him a real uncertainty, but when on the field, it's been dynamite.

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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:14 am 
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This is the best TE draft in a while and the Steelers either do not need on or need one on day 2 depending on how confident you are with Green's health.

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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:18 pm 
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Retaining Green, imo, is a colossal mistake. ROI isn't nearly good enough and there is too much risk. One decent hit in the first game of the year will likely result in him missing another 6-8 games.

I hope they don't ignore TE in the draft because of green.

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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:19 pm 
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Keeping Green given his fragility is just stupid. Its pretty obvious to anyone and everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:31 pm 
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Even thinking about keeping shows the steelers stubbornness.

I mean no one in their right mind can say they got their 5$ M worth out of the dude.

Further this is a player with concussion problems who sustained yet another one and a season ending one. It boggles the mind to think Tomlin and Colbert wanna hang onto this guy. Only reason I can think of is to try to prove they were right. Just like the steelers D wants to prove they can stop tom Brady.

Anyway steelers are running some huge risks here if they do what they did last season. Thinking the offense is set is a big mistake. When they bow out of the playoffs next year we'll know. Steelers have big holes at wr at te that are not going to magically disappear.


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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:32 pm 
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How anybody could say green had an impact is completely baffling to me. I mean granted the bar was very low. Playing in a game. So making a catch by a tight end is having an impact now?


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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:58 pm 
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What are the cap implications of cutting Green though? Money saved vs. dead money?


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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:25 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Retaining Green, imo, is a colossal mistake. ROI isn't nearly good enough and there is too much risk. One decent hit in the first game of the year will likely result in him missing another 6-8 games.

I hope they don't ignore TE in the draft because of green.

Like they always do, they will have a veteran roster solution before the draft... then draft positions of need. We may think their "veteran roster solution" is a joke (Jarvis Jones), but they wont have any obvious roster holes before the draft.

Besides, when you are a top 5 team in the league but not a champion, you are looking at upgrading good players in order to get better. There are few true holes on the roster. I do agree that Gay is done as a slot guy for a great team, although he could play well enough to help somebody for another year or two.

The Green thing is best viewed through a salary and salary cap lens. I think the way his contract is structured, they don't owe him any new money now and there would be a cap hit of $3.5625M whether they cut him now or in late August. There doesn't seem to be any risk in continuing with him and re-evaluating his health. The biggest danger would be: he comes to camp with great health, then gets a season or career-ending injury in preseason-- I believe they'd be on the hook for a $6M+ cap hit if he goes on IR.

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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:28 pm 
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it's still yggy wrote:
How anybody could say green had an impact is completely baffling to me. I mean granted the bar was very low. Playing in a game. So making a catch by a tight end is having an impact now?

I think it's reasonable to say we aren't likely to have made the playoffs without his contributions.

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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 1:36 pm 
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and by the way: I totally agree with jebrick-- best TE draft since 2010 (gresham, Gronkowski, Dickson, Moeaki, Jimmy Graham, Aaron Hernadez, Pitta, Clay Harbor, Michael Hoomanawanui, Logan Paulsen). 2011 was the next best, and it's been pretty rough since then.

I think there are 8-12 solid draft pick TEs this year who could have a similar impact to that 2010 group.

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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:44 pm 
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Green def helped us win 2 games, for sure.

With that help, we got in Playoffs.

The risk/reward is all steelers and green

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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:03 pm 
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I'm sorry. There is no way to determine if one single player catapulted the steelers into the playoffs.

Impossible.

Who's to say someone else wouldn't have stepped up and contributed?

Labeling Green as the reason the steelers succeeded is pure speculation based on agenda.

The sample set is way to small to even conjure a hypothesis.

I surmise three plays made by Cobi Hamilton launched the steelers into the playoffs.

Any takers?

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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:45 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
I'm sorry. There is no way to determine if one single player catapulted the steelers into the playoffs.

Impossible.

Who's to say someone else wouldn't have stepped up and contributed?

Labeling Green as the reason the steelers succeeded is pure speculation based on agenda.

The sample set is way to small to even conjure a hypothesis.

I surmise three plays made by Cobi Hamilton launched the steelers into the playoffs.

Any takers?

Both contributed-- which was the term we were justifying.

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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:00 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
it's still yggy wrote:
How anybody could say green had an impact is completely baffling to me. I mean granted the bar was very low. Playing in a game. So making a catch by a tight end is having an impact now?

I think it's reasonable to say we aren't likely to have made the playoffs without his contributions.


I don't think it's very reasonable to say that at all. If green never put on a steelers uni this season I'm pretty sure we end up with the same results.


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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:42 pm 
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it's still yggy wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
it's still yggy wrote:
How anybody could say green had an impact is completely baffling to me. I mean granted the bar was very low. Playing in a game. So making a catch by a tight end is having an impact now?

I think it's reasonable to say we aren't likely to have made the playoffs without his contributions.


I don't think it's very reasonable to say that at all. If green never put on a steelers uni this season I'm pretty sure we end up with the same results.

I don't see it-- I think everyone had a hand in the pile. Green, in particular offered something that the other TEs present did not show. Might they have showed it if given more chances? Maybe... but, like Landry Jones suddenly looking like a viable starter, it doesn't seem likely.

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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:03 pm 
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If they get a chance to get Adam Shaheen in day 3 then jump at it. It will be a luxury pick so they had best have their other positions locked up.

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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:21 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
If they get a chance to get Adam Shaheen in day 3 then jump at it. It will be a luxury pick so they had best have their other positions locked up.

I don't think adding pieces that can help this team score in the red zone is a luxury pick at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:30 pm 
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What are the odds M Bryant makes the 53?

Someone should set up a pool.

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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:58 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
What are the odds M Bryant makes the 53?

Someone should set up a pool.

I don't think he makes it to camp.

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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:30 pm 
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I think he wins comeback player of the year.

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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:09 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
I think he wins comeback player of the year.

Same.

Let's give him one more chance before we just write him off.

There's no way he wins comeback player of the year......I don't think the league will give it to a guy coming off a year long drug suspension.....unless they want the good publicity of a player turning around his life.

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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:34 am 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
What are the odds M Bryant makes the 53?

Someone should set up a pool.

I don't think he makes it to camp.


Same here. I hope they assume that he'll never get his shit together and fill that spot accordingly.


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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:06 am 
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COR-TEN wrote:
I'm sorry. There is no way to determine if one single player catapulted the steelers into the playoffs.

Impossible.

Who's to say someone else wouldn't have stepped up and contributed?

Labeling Green as the reason the steelers succeeded is pure speculation based on agenda.

The sample set is way to small to even conjure a hypothesis.

I surmise three plays made by Cobi Hamilton launched the steelers into the playoffs.

Any takers?


No one I am aware of is saying that it is a priori impossible that others could have stepped up and made key plays instead of Green.

No one I am aware of is saying that without Green the Steelers would have missed the play offs.

I am aware of some arguing that Green's contributions definitely helped the Steelers not lose / win games and thereby helped secure a play off spot for the team.

And Green did make key plays instead of others that very much helped the Steelers succeed. It's more speculative to suppose others could have stepped up in his place bc potentiality is more speculative than actuality and Green actually made key plays.

He's a giant risk. I'm all for having him in camp. I don't know about keeping him there depending on what goes down after certain dates and cap their attendant cap hit implications.

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 Post subject: Re: Blurbs: Gay and Green
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:25 pm 
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I will be that guy. I will say that if Green hadn't made the impact he did in those 6 games we wouldn't have made the playoffs.

We were a team that was going to miss the playoffs and was in real danger of having a losing season. We were 4-5 and had lost 4 straight games. We beat Cleveland to go 5-5.

But there were a bunch of games that would be more difficult and look there goes Sammie Coates pretty much down for the count, no more deep threat. Who was going to bring that explosive element back to our offense? Jesse James? No.

Green came in and played those 6 games and did things that no other Steeler TE had EVER done. Yes, that includes Heath Miller.

Jesse James in his 24 regular season games has just 3 catches over 20+ yards, with his longest being 24 yards.

Heath Miller in his last season had just 5 catches over 20+ yards in 16 games.

What did Green do in just 6 games? Hell, let me just narrow it down to what he did in just 3 games, Indy, Giants and Cincy.

All Green did in those 3 wins was have catches of:

37 yards, 33 yards, and 20 yards against the Giants.

35 yards and 32 yards against Indy.

28 and 23 yards against Cincy.

Are you kidding me? He had in just three important wins, 7 catches over 20+ yards and 4 of those were over 30+ yards. He had two games back to back where he had two 30+ yard catches.

To put that in perspective Jesse James and Heath Miller combined the past two seasons only had 8 catches over 20 + yards and that is with one playing 24 games and the other 16 games. Yet here comes Green and in just 3 games has 7 catches over 20+ yards. What could he do in a full season? What could Ben do with a weapon like that for an entire season?

Jesse James could not do what Green did in those games, he just does not have the talent, he is a different type of TE. I like James but feel he will always be a very good #2 TE which may sound like a sleight against him but it is not.

My worry is that Green can't get over these concussions and that it will dog him for the rest of his career. My fear is that we have done what Miami did in signing Cleveland's TE Jordan Cameron. Remember him? He, like Green, has suffered from concussions and it looks like it will end his career.

So, if I am the Steelers, in this deep TE class, I use a 3rd or 4th round pick on a TE. And if one of the two top TEs was available at pick 30 I would snatch them up quick.

Yes, I get that everybody wants an edge rusher, but once you get past the top prospects, you have a group of edge rushers that all have similar grades from the end of round 1 to the end of round 2. Look at the 2015 NFL draft.

All the talk about Vic Beasley, and Shane Ray and Bud Dupree. Beasley was the consensus top prospect and then there was debate about Ray and Dupree. Who was the next best prospect?

Washington took Preston Smith in the 2nd round with the 36th pick, all he has done is have 13 sacks his first two years. Arizona took Markus Golden with the 58th pick in round 2, all he did this past year was have 12.5 sacks and 16.5 overall in his first two years. Seattle took Frank Clark with the 63rd pick in round 2 and he had 10 sacks this past season and has 13 sacks in his first two years.

If we are sitting at the end of round 1 and are faced with a choice of taking one of the two best TEs available or taking the 5th or 6th best prospect, maybe at edge rusher, then I take the TE. Just like that 2015 draft, the edge rushers that will still be available in round 2, even at the end of round 2 will probably have a similar grade to that player we might have 'reached' for at the end of round 1.

An athletic vertical threat, athletic TE is crucial moving forward to truly getting this offense to take off. This offense is not 'set'. The offense the past two playoff runs has really failed this team, regardless of what the defense did or did not do. You won't get very far kicking 6 FGs to win a playoff game. The offense, more so than the defense, is still letting this team down.

I would love for the Steeler to add two offensive players in the first 4 rounds, I don't care what order. RB, TE, WR, QB, they are all in play for me. We are not 'set' on offense. You think like that you are setting this offense and team up for more painful exits from the playoffs.

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Last edited by Scunge on Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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