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 Post subject: Re: Coaches are under using Hargrave
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:39 pm 
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steelclan wrote:
FC wrote:
The problem is conditioning. Hargrave is quick to tap the helmet and pull himself from games.

The Steelers want to use Hargrave more...His lack of conditioning doesnt allow that to happen.

Weight room shape is not football shape. Hargrave has ability. He has a ton of room for improvement. At this point he is 25-30 snaps a game player.

I know it won't be popular and I will be thought of as a negative Nancy dickhead....The film don't lie.


Fair enough. Shame hopefully he can overcome that because on the field his impact is considerable.


To be fair. When the weather turns into football weather I think Hargrave will be able to play closer to 50 plays a game.

Hargrave has elite ability to penetrate and blow up blocking schemes and run plays...He is also held 90% of the time.

Hargrave burns very very hot....The more he plays the better he will get pacing himself

Hargrave is a star in the making...He needs to improve shedding blocks...Hard to do when you're getting held

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 Post subject: Re: Coaches are under using Hargrave
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:58 pm 
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Laying the Wood wrote:
Steel Mike wrote:
Not really sure where else to put this, but it's kind of relevant. I didn't think it warranted its own thread.

Alex Kozora‏ @Alex_Kozora 5m5 minutes ago

In Dick LeBeau's 13 years as Steelers' DC, he allowed 1 team to rush for 200+.

It's happened to Keith Butler 3 times in the last 14 games.


Casey Hampton and Aaron Smith were immovable objects. Polamalu was an all-world force, especially against the run. James Farrior was our best ILB in the last 15 years. Harrison and Woodley, in their primes, were the best OLB tandem in the league. Ike and DeShea, and even B-Mac, played the run as well as any CBs in the league. That was a good fucking defense we enjoyed, fellas.


Yes it was. I think this defense can eventually get back into the top defense in the league conversation. The talent is there IMO. It's just getting healthy and cleaning up the tackling.

Also Heyward didn't have his best game either. I think Tuitt is the straw that stirs the drink on defense. I think he's hands down the best player on the unit. We're lucky we didn't lose him for the year.

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 Post subject: Re: Coaches are under using Hargrave
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:08 pm 
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It's been a warmish september. Guys are getting gassed more quickly, regardless of hydration. There's a reason football is played in the winter.

I'm guessing they are saving harrison for the last half of the season at his request - even though the public face says he doesn't know why he's not playing. It's not like he gives a shit. He's still getting paid and the steelers are 2-1.


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 Post subject: Re: Coaches are under using Hargrave
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:09 pm 
Additionally the NFL is a very different game now. Its essentially willing to concede FGs and yards at the sake of preventing TDs.

Im not that worried about the Steelers run D. Cohen has elite COD skills. Might be the best in the last 2 decades at least.


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 Post subject: Re: Coaches are under using Hargrave
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:24 pm 
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steelclan wrote:
Guy needs to be a 3 down player. Enough with the NT 2 down tag. After re-watch (it was fucking frustrating) it became obvious interior of line was fine v the run. Bears ran a ton of outside zone and edge defenders (especially Chick) got tooled. Inside of line wasn't fantastic by any means but they did their jobs especially Hargrave.

On brief occasions Bears decided to pass Hargrave caused havoc. He has repeatedly done this in first 3 games yet gets yanked off the field on most 3rd and medium/long situations. He needs to stay on the field. Most centers in 1 v 1 in pass rush are going to struggle v Hargrave. He has 2 sacks and a bunch of pressures in smallish sample size v pass. Given how interior pass rush is easiest way to blow up the pocket why do Butler and Tomlin insist on Hargrave coming off the field so much?

Is it a fatigue issue? If it isn't then my non experts eyes tell me pulling him off the field is fucking asinine especially when Tuitt comes back. Those 2 alone can open up a can of worms for opposing offenses that might even makes us think the D can be as good as some think it can.

I don't get it at all. Maybe someone can explain it to me.


He is destructive.
Like mentioned. could be a conditioning issue.
Could be the unusual heat we have played in first 3 weeks.
Could be both.

Week 1

Cam H. - 52 snaps ( 79% of def. snaps )
Tyson A - 54 ( 82 % )
Javon H - 25 ( 38% )
Walton - 17 (26% )
Tuit - 2

Week 2

Cam H. - 57 snaps ( 86% of def. snaps )
Tyson A - 54 ( 82 % )
Javon H - 23 ( 35% )
Walton - 10 (15% )

Week 3 not available yet.

Quote:
Week three available now
Cam H. - 56 snaps ( 86% of def. snaps )
Tyson A - 57 ( 88 % )
Javon H - 38 ( 58% )
Walton - 18 (28% )
Big Dan - 7 ( 11% )


Has to be pretty close.
Did not see Big Dan in any defensive snap counts first 2 weeks. Thought I saw him a play here or there, that may have been Sunday?

Week 3 snap counts will be telling.
62 defensive snaps.
heavy run day.
plus heyward sees snaps on special teams.

Wonder if they had higher snap counts for JH and Walton considering the heat and heavy run game plan could have taken the toll on Cam and Tyson if they did indeed continued seeing the bulk of snaps.

Cant wait to see Tuit in pads again.
He makes a world of difference.

But Tyson and Walton still need to see 10-12-15 snaps a game to spell CH and ST.
Cant fall into the pattern of the last few years.
Those guys were close to or over 90% last year.

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Last edited by Stosh-67 on Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Coaches are under using Hargrave
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:30 pm 
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Not only are they saving Harrison, but they want these early season reps in "meaningless games" to go to developing the future.

We view every game as a must win. Tomlin doesn't. He simply doesn't place much value on a bye and home field. We've missed the playoffs a few times because of that approach.

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 Post subject: Re: Coaches are under using Hargrave
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:25 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Not only are they saving Harrison, but they want these early season reps in "meaningless games" to go to developing the future.

We view every game as a must win. Tomlin doesn't. He simply doesn't place much value on a bye and home field. We've missed the playoffs a few times because of that approach.

In a game in which all the Bears were intent on doing was run the ball. And run alot.
In which it was hot.........
In which they may have not attempted a pass more than 12 yards.
And then became evident as the game wore on that their only success was running the ball............

There was no reason in hell that if James Harrison was dressed he should not have been getting reps.
Especially by the third quarter.

He should have seen 15-20 snaps at minimum with Watt out.
Which is still a nice light load for James.

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 Post subject: Re: Coaches are under using Hargrave
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:30 pm 
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Stosh-67 wrote:
He should have seen 15-20 snaps at minimum with Watt out.
Which is still a nice light load for James.


That's my point. You're pulling all the stops to win every game that's winnable. To Tomlin, that's a preseason game and they are more interested in the development of Chickillo and seeing what they have.

Harrison is not being punished, and he's not in the doghouse. Above is the only explanation that fits. Although I suppose it's possible Harrison has a minor nagging injury and is only dressed in case someone goes down (but that would be a violation of NFL injury reporting rules).

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 Post subject: Re: Coaches are under using Hargrave
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:59 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Stosh-67 wrote:
He should have seen 15-20 snaps at minimum with Watt out.
Which is still a nice light load for James.


That's my point. You're pulling all the stops to win every game that's winnable. To Tomlin, that's a preseason game and they are more interested in the development of Chickillo and seeing what they have.

Harrison is not being punished, and he's not in the doghouse. Above is the only explanation that fits. Although I suppose it's possible Harrison has a minor nagging injury and is only dressed in case someone goes down (but that would be a violation of NFL injury reporting rules).

I read somewhere recently, can't remember where or I would link it, that Tomlin stated they had a plan for JH down the road.
That said, it still boggles the mind that he wouldn't get at least 10-12 plays in the game Sunday. Hell...he should have had that many snaps even if Chickillo were playing balls to the wall, considering the conditions.
It's really hard to understand what this staff is trying to do a lot of the time...

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 Post subject: Re: Coaches are under using Hargrave
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:09 pm 
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Sorry, FC, I call bullshit on the notion that Hargrave is a 25-30 snap type of player due to poor conditioning or whatever.

Last season Javon had 7 games (as a rookie) where he was between 41 and 63 snaps. He had 8 games where he saw at least 55% of the snaps and had two back to back games where he saw 84% of the snaps. That was just the regular season.

In the playoffs, Hargrave had 50 snaps against Miami, 51 snaps against KC and 52 snaps against NE.

This is a player who can only play 25-30 snaps a game???

No. Javon Hargrave last season had 645 snaps on defense out of a possible 1244. I am including the post season for those totals.

That is Hargrave playing 52% of the time.

If you take into account that they played him very little in the first 3 games it is even more impressive what he was able to do. From game 4 all the way through the 3 playoff games, Hargrave played 608 of a possible 1045 snaps, which is 58%.

So, fast forward to this season and Hargrave through 3 games has 86 snaps out of a total of 196, which is 43.8%.

I love the player, and loved that the Steelers drafted him but why did they even bother? He is not Casey Hampton, but he can be a great pass rushing DT who also can be very good against the run. Why draft this player is you don't plan to modify the defense to take advantage of his gifts?

If we had Aaron Donald, or Geno Atkins or any number of great pass rushing DTs from yesteryear on the team they would find themselves in the same spot as Javon Hargrave. It is sad. I am going to have to wait for Hargrave to leave in free agency to see what he can really do as a player.

When that is happening, when you have talented players but a clueless DC or on offense a clueless OC, it is time to fire said coaches and bring in somebody who does know how to use those players, how to mold and develop a defense to maximize those player's gifts.

I often daydream about what a DC like a Wade Phillips could do with Hargrave, Tuitt and Heyward. I so hate this Dick LeBeau 3-4 defense and so should everybody else.

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