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 Post subject: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:42 am 
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Serious question, are the Steelers winning is spite of Big Ben. Look we all love Ben, myself included, but lets not kid ourselves, his play has been poor for most of this season and for a lot of last season, especially on the road. Just heard on NFL network that Ben has not had a single 300 yard passing game in his last 10 regular season starts, which seems astonishing considering shitty ass QB's routinely throw for over 300 yards. I did a little research, and the Steelers are 10-1 in their last 11 regular season games going back to last year, Ben started and played all of them except the season finale against the Browns last year and has zero 300 yard games and only 15 TD passes with 8 picks, thats some real pedestrian numbers, yet the PS are 9-1 in those games. I hear on this site all the time how we have the worst coaches ever, a shitty defense that's coming around, and if it weren't for Ben we would probably never win another game ever again, yet is Ben the reason we are 9-1 in our last 10 games? While I agree with most here that Haley is a complete moron as a play caller, I disagree that Haley is holding Ben back, Ben has had 2 of the best years of his career with Haley as the coordinator in 2014 and 2015, and we all thought Haley was shitty then as well. Ben's play has digressed since 2015 plain and simple, yet the PS continue to pile of wins. Bottom line, hopefully Ben's play gets better and the defense continues to improve, and our coaching improves and the PS find a way to get number 7 this year, but I think its time we invest a pretty high pick on a QB cause I think once a player mentions he is thinking about retiring he has pretty much already got one foot out the door.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:47 am 
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Prior to Week One, Todd Haley had his media availability and when asked about what he's looking for from the offense this year his #1 response was something to the effect of "less interceptions. We fumbled so infrequently last year that the only way we turn the ball over is through interceptions. So if we can avoid them then we have a better chance of possessing the ball and winning."

Ben is playing like a quarterback who was given a directive that ball security matters more than making plays. Haley has turned Ben into a game manager.

So to answer your question, I think he is. But I don't think he'll be given the chance to.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:51 am 
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I don’t buy that 43, every team and every coach wants less interceptions, and Ben is throwing almost 1 a game in his last 10, although the one in todays game was complete BS. I would point out that out of those last 10 games 7 have been on the road, so maybe the PS need to try a little harder to get homefield this year.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:04 am 
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StillerDownSouth wrote:
I don’t buy that 43, every team and every coach wants less interceptions, and Ben is throwing almost 1 a game in his last 10, although the one in todays game was complete BS. I would point out that out of those last 10 games 7 have been on the road, so maybe the PS need to try a little harder to get homefield this year.


You don't think essentially being directly called out by his OC has an effect on how Ben's been playing? You don't think there's a correlation between that and Ben's reliance on AB or his insistence on taking safe shots downfield at inopportune times because he knows they're low-risk (i.e. less likely to be picked or if they are, more like a punt than a true INT)?

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:06 am 
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No, I think you are taking some coach speak and making more out of it than it is, just a canned answer to a question being asked.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:08 am 
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Do you not think Ben’s numbers a pretty Brian Hoyer’ish lateley? Does that not concern you just a little?


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:12 am 
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StillerDownSouth wrote:
No, I think you are taking some coach speak and making more out of it than it is, just a canned answer to a question being asked.


Did you hear the response? It wasn't a canned answer. Haley started to answer, stopped, thought about it, then continued and deliberately chose his words. He also could have decided to say anything else there.

"What is the most important factor for your offense's success in 2017?"

He could have said...

- Being more successful in the red zone.
- Continuing to run the ball successfully.
- Winning on first down.
- Scoring points no matter how we do it.
- Being capable of beating teams in multiple ways.
- Cutting down on all turnovers.
- Converting third downs into first downs.

Seven quick responses off the top of my head for the question and he chose to intentionally single out his QB for throwing interceptions.

Couple that with the fact that there may be no HC/OC duo in the NFL that is more risk averse than Tomlin/Haley and it sure seemed like he was saying publicly that Ben needs to be extra careful protecting the ball.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:15 am 
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StillerDownSouth wrote:
Do you not think Ben’s numbers a pretty Brian Hoyer’ish lateley? Does that not concern you just a little?


What concerns me is what he's asked to do.

B2B brought something to my attention on Twitter and that is coming into this week Ben is 5th from the bottom in the NFL in how far his 3rd down passes travel in comparison to the yardage needed to pick up a first down.

He was throwing the ball something like 3.5 yards short of the sticks on average on third down, and that's including the deep throws on 3rd and short that everyone hates.

That's not all Ben. It seems that Haley is using Ben more as a game manager this season.

If so, why? Are they preparing their offense for the post-Ben years? Is Haley just a moron? Does he think Ben doesn't have it anymore?

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Last edited by fortythree on Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:17 am 
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My take is Ben is still elite. Ben has always been somewhat up and down. Ben's best football this season is ahead of him. That's what I'm looking for.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:17 am 
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Every coach preaches taking care of the ball, and Ben only had 13 picks last year in 14 games. I just don’t buy the idea that Ben is hamstrung by Haley, all Haley does is call the play, which Ben can change at anytime at the line, Ben goes through his progression and decides where the ball goes. IMO his accuarcy has been a little off this year, hope it improves, but I don’t think he has been gunshy throwing into coverage, he has had several balls this year thrown into double coverage that could have been picked.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:23 am 
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StillerDownSouth wrote:
Every coach preaches taking care of the ball, and Ben only had 13 picks last year in 14 games. I just don’t buy the idea that Ben is hamstrung by Haley, all Haley does is call the play, which Ben can change at anytime at the line, Ben goes through his progression and decides where the ball goes. IMO his accuarcy has been a little off this year, hope it improves, but I don’t think he has been gunshy throwing into coverage, he has had several balls this year thrown into double coverage that could have been picked.


No he can't.

There's a few reasons why Ben is limited in what he can change. For one, a lot of their plays only have the ability to change to a run or to a pass. Second Haley gets the calls in so late that Ben often doesn't have enough time to do a full blown audible. Third, Ben is limited by the personnel package on the field to a limited number of options on each play.

He can maybe change a route if he sees something or flip a pass to a run and vice versa but let's not act like Ben has free reign in this offense to do as he pleases.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:28 am 
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Stallworth16 wrote:
My take is Ben is still elite. Ben has always been somewhat up and down. Ben's best football this season is ahead of him. That's what I'm looking for.



I still think he’s a top QB, probably not quite elite though but for sure top 5 still. But his play as of late doesn’t back that up, I am hoping its just a road thing. Believe me, Ben is my all-time favorite Steeler and I hope he gets his mojo back, just seems to me he’s been a little off lately.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:33 am 
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fortythree wrote:
StillerDownSouth wrote:
Every coach preaches taking care of the ball, and Ben only had 13 picks last year in 14 games. I just don’t buy the idea that Ben is hamstrung by Haley, all Haley does is call the play, which Ben can change at anytime at the line, Ben goes through his progression and decides where the ball goes. IMO his accuarcy has been a little off this year, hope it improves, but I don’t think he has been gunshy throwing into coverage, he has had several balls this year thrown into double coverage that could have been picked.


No he can't.

There's a few reasons why Ben is limited in what he can change. For one, a lot of their plays only have the ability to change to a run or to a pass. Second Haley gets the calls in so late that Ben often doesn't have enough time to do a full blown audible. Third, Ben is limited by the personnel package on the field to a limited number of options on each play.

He can maybe change a route if he sees something or flip a pass to a run and vice versa but let's not act like Ben has free reign in this offense to do as he pleases.


I don’t buy into the idea he doesn’t have much say in the offense or game plans, pretty sure he has a lot of imput on what plays get installed each week and what checks are available, and we all hear him checking a the line a lot during games, and like most teams a lot of their plays have RPO’s built in. I just know I find myself saying WTF Ben after more plays than I used to. Like today when he missed MB when he had a walk in TD, or when he missed AB when he would have had a walk in TD, but I guess that was Haleys fault too.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:36 am 
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StillerDownSouth wrote:
fortythree wrote:
StillerDownSouth wrote:
Every coach preaches taking care of the ball, and Ben only had 13 picks last year in 14 games. I just don’t buy the idea that Ben is hamstrung by Haley, all Haley does is call the play, which Ben can change at anytime at the line, Ben goes through his progression and decides where the ball goes. IMO his accuarcy has been a little off this year, hope it improves, but I don’t think he has been gunshy throwing into coverage, he has had several balls this year thrown into double coverage that could have been picked.


No he can't.

There's a few reasons why Ben is limited in what he can change. For one, a lot of their plays only have the ability to change to a run or to a pass. Second Haley gets the calls in so late that Ben often doesn't have enough time to do a full blown audible. Third, Ben is limited by the personnel package on the field to a limited number of options on each play.

He can maybe change a route if he sees something or flip a pass to a run and vice versa but let's not act like Ben has free reign in this offense to do as he pleases.


I don’t buy into the idea he doesn’t have much say in the offense or game plans, pretty sure he has a lot of imput on what plays get installed each week and what checks are available, and we all hear him checking a the line a lot during games, and like most teams a lot of their plays have RPO’s built in. I just know I find myself saying WTF Ben after more plays than I used to.


He has some say insofar as he's allowed to give his opinion on what plays he likes and what is working in practice but I don't know that he's ever had any real say so in how they attack teams other than making suggestions.

Ben checks into and out of runs and passes but he almost never changes the play completely. The only time he has any real autonomy in the offense is during the no huddle. Which is probably why Haley is so reluctant to let him do it.

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Like today when he missed MB when he had a walk in TD, or when he missed AB when he would have had a walk in TD, but I guess that was Haleys fault too.


The pass to Bryant was bad but you can't expect him to make that play to AB.

For one that was an improvisation by AB. Ben was expecting him to continue to come across the field so when he cut up, Ben never saw him where he was expecting him. Secondly, Ben would've had to turn his body all the way around to throw that to AB and he didn't have time.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:47 am 
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Actually AB said in his presser that was a designed play that they practice thats why he was so upset, he said its like a kid on christmas day cause you know its coming, referring to that play.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:53 am 
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No he can't.

Ben misses wide open receivers. Regularly. That's coaching? Really? How many excuses can you make for the guy? He's a 102 million dollar contract playing like a 30 million dollar man.

Noll tortured Bradshaw for his entire career. The fans cheered when TB was hurt. People called him stupid. And he suffers from serious clinical depression. No one made excuses for him.

I said last year this was Bell's team. No matter how great Bell is, that's a BAD thing in a passing league.

It's hard seeing a champion lose it. All those retirement conspiracies...coaching conspiracies...what if Ben simply didn't want to embarrass his legacy by hanging on too long? Maybe he was trying to avoid everyone seeing his decline.

But now every NFL show is talking about it. The league smells blood.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:00 am 
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ChicagoSteel wrote:
No he can't.

Ben misses wide open receivers. Regularly. That's coaching? Really? How many excuses can you make for the guy? He's a 102 million dollar contract playing like a 30 million dollar man.

Noll tortured Bradshaw for his entire career. The fans cheered when TB was hurt. People called him stupid. And he suffers from serious clinical depression. No one made excuses for him.

I said last year this was Bell's team. No matter how great Bell is, that's a BAD thing in a passing league.

It's hard seeing a champion lose it. All those retirement conspiracies...coaching conspiracies...what if Ben simply didn't want to embarrass his legacy by hanging on too long? Maybe he was trying to avoid everyone seeing his decline.

But now every NFL show is talking about it. The league smells blood.


Yes there have been several national articles written since last season talking about his decline, the media has been patiently waiting for this day to come believe me. I hope he has one more special run in him as a lot of greats have had at the tail end of their careers, but we are all kidding ourselves if we think he has 3-4 more stellar years left, which is why they should spend a very high pick on a QB pretty damn soon cause his replacement is not on our roster currently.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:51 am 
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if it's possible to believe that Haley is as bad as advertised and still think he's being scapegoated a bit for our offensive woes, i'm definitely in that camp

our inability to find an open receiver in critical situations has to reflect on the receivers and the QB as well as the playcalling

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:02 am 
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StillerDownSouth wrote:
Serious question, are the Steelers winning is spite of Big Ben. Look we all love Ben, myself included, but lets not kid ourselves, his play has been poor for most of this season and for a lot of last season, especially on the road. Just heard on NFL network that Ben has not had a single 300 yard passing game in his last 10 regular season starts, which seems astonishing considering shitty ass QB's routinely throw for over 300 yards. I did a little research, and the Steelers are 10-1 in their last 11 regular season games going back to last year, Ben started and played all of them except the season finale against the Browns last year and has zero 300 yard games and only 15 TD passes with 8 picks, thats some real pedestrian numbers, yet the PS are 9-1 in those games. I hear on this site all the time how we have the worst coaches ever, a shitty defense that's coming around, and if it weren't for Ben we would probably never win another game ever again, yet is Ben the reason we are 9-1 in our last 10 games? While I agree with most here that Haley is a complete moron as a play caller, I disagree that Haley is holding Ben back, Ben has had 2 of the best years of his career with Haley as the coordinator in 2014 and 2015, and we all thought Haley was shitty then as well. Ben's play has digressed since 2015 plain and simple, yet the PS continue to pile of wins. Bottom line, hopefully Ben's play gets better and the defense continues to improve, and our coaching improves and the PS find a way to get number 7 this year, but I think its time we invest a pretty high pick on a QB cause I think once a player mentions he is thinking about retiring he has pretty much already got one foot out the door.

Ben had one bad throw today, and a host of great ones. WTF are you talking about? Did you not catch the part of the plan where they fed Leveon Bell and we kicked the other team's ass?

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:51 am 
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Quote:
Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?


Posing this question after a game the coaches anointed Bell the guy to carry the offense is funny.

Haley and Tomlin both coach like their asses are puckered. The Tomlin/Haley combo is a terrible combo for a team that requires the offense to be dynamic.

Haley needs 2014 Bell and Alex Smith at qb.

Tomlin needs the 2008 defense.

Neither is capable of getting the most out of the current roster.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:11 am 
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Here's what my admittedly untrained eye is seeing.

I think Haley's playcalling sucks...it is all over the place and very limiting. They play it close to the vest 99% of the time, not opening up into a full-scale NFL offense until they have to, or, occasionally, right from the get-go as they did yesterday. The problem, of course, is they never stick with it. At some point they revert to grab-bag conservatism.

HOWEVER, I think Ben has also been more inaccurate with his throws this year. Not "huge decline" inaccurate, but more inaccurate. Case in point...the throw to Hunter yesterday. I saw Nelson Agholor in the late game on the same route and with the same coverage Hunter had. Carson Wentz laid a perfect leading rainbow right into Agholor's hands. Ben's throw went slightly OOB. Hunter still should have caught it, but it was nowhere near a perfect throw. That in itself is enough to cause some struggles. You're just a little off...completions turn into incompletions. 20+ yard gains on short passes become 6-8 yards.

I also don't think Ben's getting through his progressions as smoothly as he used to...the missed TD pass to Brown being a case in point. Guys are coming open....they're not all being blanketed on every single play. Ben's not always finding them as much as he used to. Again...just a LITTLE off in this area...offense will struggle.

I did no all-22 analysis of this, but that's what I'm seeing.

Others may differ in their opinions.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:10 am 
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I don't think this question gets asked at the end of the first half. Pretty clear that in the 2H there was zero intention to attack. That and Ben had a few passes batted at the LOS.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:22 am 
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Ben had one bad throw today, and a host of great ones. WTF are you talking about? Did you not catch the part of the plan where they fed Leveon Bell and we kicked the other team's ass?


This.....id also add

Haley is by far the least accomplished OC/DC in the nfl. Currently the Steelers organization is one of the most nepotistic and crony filled in the nfl. Joey, Carnell, Jerry O, many individuals in the FO. At LEAST they can all claim some level of lifelong devotion and effort in the sport.

Haley is a rich kid who failed at golf. Think about that. The most juiced in connected good ol boy buy your way in bs sport/job in the entire world and born a millionaire Haley cant cut THAT ?

He begged his daddy to get him an nfl job and most unqualified dopes would settle in to a much less demanding much less scrutinized position for the next 20 or 30 but dumbfuck Haley had to be in the spotlight.

Ben pretty much quit being himself in an open and honest way on any level and adopted the good soldier stance from then on after Millidegville.

Hed like to call his own shots and knows hed do much better but Haley runs and crys to Colbert or Rooney who then send their bs downhill. Tomlin for his part is a career football guy who has more than earned his chops realizes the Steelers are largely a dysfunctional mess on the inside but believes he is a good enough football guy to overcome it. He like to call them all on it at this point but he feels he made his deal with the devil as far as ceding some power when he was hired and he is not the type of guy to not fully honor his word even if it could be more than reasonably negotiated at this point.

Haley is and will always be a huge problem. Other good teams laugh at him.

Any and all problems Ben may or may not have relate directly and almost solely with that and will stay that way unless Haley is canned or given far less control than he has now.

Haley is an idiot who would have difficulty in a job as an announcer. Hes that bad


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:32 am 
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Bell holding out. Bryant delayed reinstatement by the league. Ben given too many days off from practice. Lack of 1st team reps thru preseason. The biggest reason the offense rhythm is off is because of the incoherent o system and playcalling. 4 wr screens to start the cleveland game wtf.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:42 am 
Stairway 2 Seven wrote:
Bell holding out. Bryant delayed reinstatement by the league. Ben given too many days off from practice. Lack of 1st team reps thru preseason. The biggest reason the offense rhythm is off is because of the incoherent o system and playcalling. 4 wr screens to start the cleveland game wtf.


This too


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