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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:21 pm 
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I know one thing...if they continue to force feed the ball to Lev Bell 35-40 times per game, he won’t be available when they need him the most...

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:22 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
SteelPro wrote:
Just throwing this out there. Is part of the reason for conservative game planning to preserve Ben?


No, Haley and Tomlin are old school in that they LOVE what a running game does for TOP of wearing down a defense. And clearly they've wanted to get Bell back up to speed. Bell and the running game being a complementary piece to a lethal passing game - not on the radar.

Early in Ben's career, pre-Haley, he rarely threw short of the sticks on 3rd down. He'd even go after 3rd and 15. That only works in NE - our guys don't get the separation to add on 3 yards after that catch to get the first.



In 2014 Ben averaged 310 yd/gm and career high 38 pass attempts/gm. That was with Haley and Tomlin too. But in 2015 and 2016 Ben kept getting dinged up and missed a handful of games both seasons. I can't help but think they are being more conservative to keep him healthier.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:27 pm 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
I know one thing...if they continue to force feed the ball to Lev Bell 35-40 times per game, he won’t be available when they need him the most...


That is true as well. I thought we should have seen a little more of James Connor yesterday. Especially on the final TD drive after the second interception. Game was essentially over. They didn't need to use Bell as an exclamation point.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:39 pm 
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I know this:

- Rivers has never really been on Ben's level. He's put up comparable numbers, I've just never been impressed
- Eli has struggled with accuracy throughout his career. He's been able to string together enough play for enough weeks to win 2 SB's
- Brees is overrated....he throws the ball A LOT, he throws a lot of picks, and he's made a living off jump balls
- Peyton was routinely garbage in the playoffs, and probably has the two worst string of playoff games for a SB winning QB.

Tom Brady plays in a system inarguably the best since the early days of the WCO (and probably better). That offense plugs-n-plays anyone, including QB, and performs at a top-5 level

Aaron Rodgers may be the most talented QB ever to play the position.

And this board would bitch if either Rodgers or Brady was out there running Haley's plays.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:04 pm 
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SteelPro wrote:
Kodiak wrote:
SteelPro wrote:
Just throwing this out there. Is part of the reason for conservative game planning to preserve Ben?


No, Haley and Tomlin are old school in that they LOVE what a running game does for TOP of wearing down a defense. And clearly they've wanted to get Bell back up to speed. Bell and the running game being a complementary piece to a lethal passing game - not on the radar.

Early in Ben's career, pre-Haley, he rarely threw short of the sticks on 3rd down. He'd even go after 3rd and 15. That only works in NE - our guys don't get the separation to add on 3 yards after that catch to get the first.



In 2014 Ben averaged 310 yd/gm and career high 38 pass attempts/gm. That was with Haley and Tomlin too. But in 2015 and 2016 Ben kept getting dinged up and missed a handful of games both seasons. I can't help but think they are being more conservative to keep him healthier.



I agree with this, why all of a sudden have they gone from throwing it so much, to not? Same system, same coaches and for the most part same players. Part of it could be game situation, we have been leading for the majority of every game we played this year with the exception of Chicago, which for most teams means you end up running it more than throwing it, also I agree with the poster who said they could be viewing this as a chance to get more "practice" in during game situation since with the new CBA padded practices are basically outlawed now and the running game takes practice. Only thing I would like to see going forward is a lessor load for Bell and mixing in more play action, but I would much rather have a healthy Ben come playoff time then have to rely on Landry or Dobbs thats for sure, or have a Ben playing at 50% because he has taken too much punishment throughout the regular season. I don't give a shit if they win 45-0 or 6-3, a win is a win.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:39 pm 
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StillerDownSouth wrote:
...we have been leading for the majority of every game we played this year with the exception of Chicago, which for most teams means you end up running it more than throwing it, also I agree with the poster who said they could be viewing this as a chance to get more "practice" in during game situation since with the new CBA padded practices are basically outlawed now and the running game takes practice...


Those are all good points. But I think a big part is PIT would like to be balanced, even skew toward running a bit more. We've been in the lead, and CHI was relatively close, so they are going more for the 50/50 split (with a little more leaning toward the run). A lot of NFL teams are closer to 40/60 run/pass.

You're not going to throw for 300 yards throwing it only 32 times a game. But Ben's comp% and YPA are down signficantly below his career numbers, and well below 2014/2015 with Bryant. Granted, if he connects on 1 of those 60 yard bombs then his YPA is a good bit better. Everyone agrees he's not been as sharp as we've seen, but Ben playing at a "B" level doesn't explain a lot of the issues we're seeing.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:53 pm 
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Someone mentioned earlier in this thread the blown play to AB may have been an ad lib, to which I replied according to AB it is a play they practice. If you head over to steeler depot they have a break down of the play, also show where they ran the same play in the AFC championship last year to Eli. After watching their clip it seems to me Ben came off of AB to quick, looks like he felt pressure that was not there. Just my 2 cents, it is actually a nice play and AB would have walked in for a TD. I would post a link but I can’t figure out how to from my phone.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:56 pm 
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I've been one of Ben's biggest complainers on the board.

Probably I have unrealistic expectations.

I think there is some decline in decision making and accuracy.

I want Haley run out of town IMMEDIATELY.

With the right OC and a line that is kicking ass and taking names I think Ben can still be deadly.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:16 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
I think there is some decline in decision making and accuracy.


The accuracy issue is not really debatable - he's thrown the ball well for a total of maybe 4 out of 16 quarters. Nobody is perfect, but when Ben is on top of his game that ratio is flipped.

The decision making I just don't know without breaking down the all-22. I've heard this complaint for the entirety of Ben's career, and while I've not seen breakdowns recently I remember plenty of times in the past where the analysts would show us the overhead and show us how everyone was covered (despite many posters in the game thread insisting receivers off their screen were open). I put the ratio of "imagined" Ben misreads to actual misreads somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-to-1.

Ben's always been his share of greedy/gambler/impatient. More of a trait than a decision-making issue - you take the good with the bad. He's managed that stuff a little better as his career has gone on. But I don't buy a lot of the other stuff with regard to decision making. Ben holds and holds the ball and gets sacked or throws it away and he's criticized. Ben doesn't hold the ball and "misses" AB and he gets criticized.

It all adds up pretty clearly that our OC sucks because we need Ben to be almost PERFECT for this offense to work....intuitively we all know it, and Ben is the only guy who can do anything about it. It's just a really miserable way to have to watch the games.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:32 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
With the right OC and a line that is kicking ass and taking names I think Ben can still be deadly.


Another thing worth pointing out....Ben's accuracy was other-worldly for about two years over 2014-15. And I've only ever seen Rodgers throw like that, himself sustaining that for about 3-4 years.

Ben has been "off" more often than not this year. But I don't see last year as the beginning of any sort of a decline, just a reversion to throwing the ball like he had most of his career outside the two years I mentioned.

Which brings another angle into the mix - Haley's offense finally started looking lethal and poised to set records...but only when you had a QB throwing the ball historically great. If you're talking about a more human Ben throwing the ball around like he did those first 3 years in Haley's offense, well, a lot of people thought Haley needed run out of town back then.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:59 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
I want Haley run out of town IMMEDIATELY.

With the right OC and a line that is kicking ass and taking names I think Ben can still be deadly.


Agreed and agreed.

This offense has been dismal to watch including yesterday even though the end result was decent (yesterday).

It is NOT fun to watch a big armed grown man throw so many horizontal + 3rd down designed throws short of the sticks + seemingly daring but in reality low risk low percentage deep throws down the sidelines... with a limited number of throws to work with. Run run pass. Run run pass. Run run pass.

At some point, Haley is going to open up the offense this season and it will probably come alive.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:53 pm 
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I think the annoying thing is that this team should be able to play offense in many ways; it should be able to do quick-strike offenses with Bryant and Brown, it should be able to do WCO with Brown, JuJu, and Bell; it should be able to play ball control pound the rock; it should be able to use a mixture of running with attacking the middle of the field with Bryant, Brown. But...we don't work on doing all of this. We have the talent to ensure there is not a single defense that can stop us. We evidently don't want to play that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:07 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
At some point, Haley is going to open up the offense this season and it will probably come alive.


You know what the most maddening thing about this offense is? And it's been this way the whole time under Tomlin, and for that matter back to Cowher with Plax...

It's that they insist on an "X" guy who runs primarily 3-4 routes. From Plax, to Nate Washington(!) to Wallace to Coates to Bryant...they just don't seem willing or interested to demand those guys work on their craft to become complete receivers. Check off stretching the field and then go to work trying to play 9 on 10.

Hell, they fucking did that with Sanders! Despite the fact the guy had some decent route running ability, they insisted on using him in their traditional "X" role because they had AB and no one else for their proverbial square-peg-round-hole. It's simply the laziest, most unimaginative way to run your offense.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:14 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Havoc wrote:
At some point, Haley is going to open up the offense this season and it will probably come alive.


You know what the most maddening thing about this offense is? And it's been this way the whole time under Tomlin, and for that matter back to Cowher with Plax...

It's that they insist on an "X" guy who runs primarily 3-4 routes. From Plax, to Nate Washington(!) to Wallace to Coates to Bryant...they just don't seem willing or interested to demand those guys work on their craft to become complete receivers. Check off stretching the field and then go to work trying to play 9 on 10.

Hell, they fucking did that with Sanders! Despite the fact the guy had some decent route running ability, they insisted on using him in their traditional "X" role because they had AB and no one else for their proverbial square-peg-round-hole. It's simply the laziest, most unimaginative way to run your offense.

It's a lot of work and imagination to diversify and sophisticate your offense. I think Tomlin is a better coach than Haley, but the thing they have in common is a belief that execution is more likely to triumph over design.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:30 pm 
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The solution is simple. Right now even with the Bears loss, this defense is 2nd in yardage and 2nd in scoring (before tonight). There is no need for offensive fireworks- yet.
If you will indulge an allegory

You just met a pretty girl and she agrees to go have dinner with you. You don't show up butt naked just to show her "what she can expect later".

You have to set it up right, passing all her tests she throws at you and skillfully position her at your place as if it's her idea. Finally, after you've checked down all the boxes on your Teddy Pendergrass "Turn Off the Lights" rookie QB wristband- she gets proper f***ed. Pull that shit at the restaurant and she can "scheme" herself out or express to you that she doesn't like "canned coned sausages".

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:32 pm 
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Let me know if I got this right. I've read just about every thread on this board this year. To included the game threads after the games long over. I also read other sites usually at work and throughout the day and once in awhile, other forums.

The following has been pretty much agreed upon and written many times over on just about everything I've read each game. Basically the following comments have been a consensus:

Game #1 - WTF! Whats with all the screens? Why are all the passes within 5 yards? Why are we not going deep? WTF! What the hell kind of game plan is this, mix it up, find a rhythm. We have the best receiver corp known to man why are they not throwing darts all over downfield? (Small-ball)
- Now don't quote me on this, but to get my point across; didn't Ben have like one pass for more than 10 yards that game or some shit?

Game #2 - WTF! Whats with all the deep passes? Why are we throwing long when we need three yards? What the hell kind of game plan is this, mix it up, find a rhythm. WTF! (Deep-Ball)
- Lotsa throws downfield compared to first game and all comments were; we need to get AB more involved. Best WR in the NFL, Ben has to get the ball to him.

Game #3 - WTF! Is Brown the only receiver on the team. What the hell kind of gameplan is this, mix it up, find a rhythm. WTF we need to spread the ball around more. (AB mostly)
- AB had his most touches in a loss. Everyone saying we need to spread it around more. Ben himself states, I have to quit looking at & depending on AB so much.

Game #4 - WTF! Why does Ben suck? Whats wrong with Ben? Ben has hit the drop-off, hes in decline. Ben lost his accuracy. WTF!!! (Spread the ball around)
- Now Ben looks away from AB once and misses him open. Ben sucks! Ben not good enough to go thru his progressions anymore, he doesn't scan and misses his 15th read Finney, Ben sucks!
- But from the game I seen, he threw passes to McDonald, James, JuJu, MB, AB, Hunter, Bell. Basically, he didn't key on Brown and spread the ball around.

What I am trying to say, EVERY game has looked a bit different. Game plan?, Play-calling? Something to the extended pre-season theory?
Ben hasn't had the chance to get comfortable yet in my opinion. Every game has been a different passing game, by design or not. There has been ZERO rhythm, by design or not? But impossible to have occurred with offensive passing game plans/play calls so far.

That being said, let me ask my question; Does the passing game (Ben) seem to have improved in your opinion (no matter how much or how little) each game so far??? Or do you feel we've digressed or leveled out???


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:38 am 
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Steelersfan wrote:
That being said, let me ask my question; Does the passing game (Ben) seem to have improved in your opinion (no matter how much or how little) each game so far??? Or do you feel we've digressed or leveled out???


A-fucking-plus post. I agree 100% with everything.

To the above....I just don't know. The playcalling has been very grab bag. When Ben throws dimes and guys hang on to the ball, the offense looks pretty good. When your offense requires your QB and receivers to basically be perfect every play....well, then, your offense kind of sucks.

It's worth remembering that, early in the year, defenses seem to be ahead of offenses. Intuitively you'd think that would be reversed, but really only with regard to tackling. Also maybe a dose of reality for how the defense has performed so far, even ignoring who they've played.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:02 am 
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VeritasSteel wrote:
The solution is simple. Right now even with the Bears loss, this defense is 2nd in yardage and 2nd in scoring (before tonight). There is no need for offensive fireworks- yet.
If you will indulge an allegory

You just met a pretty girl and she agrees to go have dinner with you. You don't show up butt naked just to show her "what she can expect later".

You have to set it up right, passing all her tests she throws at you and skillfully position her at your place as if it's her idea. Finally, after you've checked down all the boxes on your Teddy Pendergrass "Turn Off the Lights" rookie QB wristband- she gets proper f***ed. Pull that shit at the restaurant and she can "scheme" herself out or express to you that she doesn't like "canned coned sausages".


:lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:11 am 
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VeritasSteel wrote:
The solution is simple. Right now even with the Bears loss, this defense is 2nd in yardage and 2nd in scoring (before tonight). There is no need for offensive fireworks- yet.


We lost to the chicago bears

Browns offense 18
Steelers offense 14

We have done the usual dilly fucking around under the Tomlin/Haley conservative umbrella vs shitty teams. That is a recipe for getting beat by inferior opponents.

It's disgusting.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:33 am 
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Steelersfan wrote:
Let me know if I got this right. I've read just about every thread on this board this year. To included the game threads after the games long over. I also read other sites usually at work and throughout the day and once in awhile, other forums.

The following has been pretty much agreed upon and written many times over on just about everything I've read each game. Basically the following comments have been a consensus:

Game #1 - WTF! Whats with all the screens? Why are all the passes within 5 yards? Why are we not going deep? WTF! What the hell kind of game plan is this, mix it up, find a rhythm. We have the best receiver corp known to man why are they not throwing darts all over downfield? (Small-ball)
- Now don't quote me on this, but to get my point across; didn't Ben have like one pass for more than 10 yards that game or some shit?

Game #2 - WTF! Whats with all the deep passes? Why are we throwing long when we need three yards? What the hell kind of game plan is this, mix it up, find a rhythm. WTF! (Deep-Ball)
- Lotsa throws downfield compared to first game and all comments were; we need to get AB more involved. Best WR in the NFL, Ben has to get the ball to him.

Game #3 - WTF! Is Brown the only receiver on the team. What the hell kind of gameplan is this, mix it up, find a rhythm. WTF we need to spread the ball around more. (AB mostly)
- AB had his most touches in a loss. Everyone saying we need to spread it around more. Ben himself states, I have to quit looking at & depending on AB so much.

Game #4 - WTF! Why does Ben suck? Whats wrong with Ben? Ben has hit the drop-off, hes in decline. Ben lost his accuracy. WTF!!! (Spread the ball around)
- Now Ben looks away from AB once and misses him open. Ben sucks! Ben not good enough to go thru his progressions anymore, he doesn't scan and misses his 15th read Finney, Ben sucks!
- But from the game I seen, he threw passes to McDonald, James, JuJu, MB, AB, Hunter, Bell. Basically, he didn't key on Brown and spread the ball around.

What I am trying to say, EVERY game has looked a bit different. Game plan?, Play-calling? Something to the extended pre-season theory?
Ben hasn't had the chance to get comfortable yet in my opinion. Every game has been a different passing game, by design or not. There has been ZERO rhythm, by design or not? But impossible to have occurred with offensive passing game plans/play calls so far.

That being said, let me ask my question; Does the passing game (Ben) seem to have improved in your opinion (no matter how much or how little) each game so far??? Or do you feel we've digressed or leveled out???


This is the very description of a "grab bag" approach to offense.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:53 am 
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VeritasSteel wrote:
The solution is simple. Right now even with the Bears loss, this defense is 2nd in yardage and 2nd in scoring (before tonight). There is no need for offensive fireworks- yet.
If you will indulge an allegory

You just met a pretty girl and she agrees to go have dinner with you. You don't show up butt naked just to show her "what she can expect later".

You have to set it up right, passing all her tests she throws at you and skillfully position her at your place as if it's her idea. Finally, after you've checked down all the boxes on your Teddy Pendergrass "Turn Off the Lights" rookie QB wristband- she gets proper f***ed. Pull that shit at the restaurant and she can "scheme" herself out or express to you that she doesn't like "canned coned sausages".


We've said this EVERY FUCKING YEAR with Haley running the Offense. Everyone says "be patient, he's setting things up"

Well every year we still wait for more...it's like we've been dating this chick for 3 months and we won't even take our pants off when we get in the bedroom even though we can tell how hot her pussy is when we pull the chair out at the restaurant. She probably thinks we're gay at this point. Pretty soon she'll want to take us shoe shopping


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:17 am 
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Havoc wrote:
Quote:
Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?


Posing this question after a game the coaches anointed Bell the guy to carry the offense is funny.

Haley and Tomlin both coach like their asses are puckered. The Tomlin/Haley combo is a terrible combo for a team that requires the offense to be dynamic.

Haley needs 2014 Bell and Alex Smith at qb.

Tomlin needs the 2008 defense.

Neither is capable of getting the most out of the current roster.


This x 1000

The Tomlin-Haley "Clenched Sphincter" (©) offense is not designed for the modern pass - biased game or Ben's skill set. It's designed to be risk averse and protect Ben from injuries (and himself). It's also championship averse because we piss away opportunities to bury opponents and end games early and give our opponents chances to win because we keep it close.


If you do not understand this I can only assume that you have not been paying attention.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:17 am 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
VeritasSteel wrote:
The solution is simple. Right now even with the Bears loss, this defense is 2nd in yardage and 2nd in scoring (before tonight). There is no need for offensive fireworks- yet.
If you will indulge an allegory

You just met a pretty girl and she agrees to go have dinner with you. You don't show up butt naked just to show her "what she can expect later".

You have to set it up right, passing all her tests she throws at you and skillfully position her at your place as if it's her idea. Finally, after you've checked down all the boxes on your Teddy Pendergrass "Turn Off the Lights" rookie QB wristband- she gets proper f***ed. Pull that shit at the restaurant and she can "scheme" herself out or express to you that she doesn't like "canned coned sausages".


We've said this EVERY FUCKING YEAR with Haley running the Offense. Everyone says "be patient, he's setting things up"

Well every year we still wait for more...it's like we've been dating this chick for 3 months and we won't even take our pants off when we get in the bedroom even though we can tell how hot her pussy is when we pull the chair out at the restaurant. She probably thinks we're gay at this point. Pretty soon she'll want to take us shoe shopping

Excellent! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:30 am 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
Pretty soon she'll want to take us shoe shopping

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Hilarious post (because it's real).

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:31 am 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
VeritasSteel wrote:
The solution is simple. Right now even with the Bears loss, this defense is 2nd in yardage and 2nd in scoring (before tonight). There is no need for offensive fireworks- yet.
If you will indulge an allegory

You just met a pretty girl and she agrees to go have dinner with you. You don't show up butt naked just to show her "what she can expect later".

You have to set it up right, passing all her tests she throws at you and skillfully position her at your place as if it's her idea. Finally, after you've checked down all the boxes on your Teddy Pendergrass "Turn Off the Lights" rookie QB wristband- she gets proper f***ed. Pull that shit at the restaurant and she can "scheme" herself out or express to you that she doesn't like "canned coned sausages".


We've said this EVERY FUCKING YEAR with Haley running the Offense. Everyone says "be patient, he's setting things up"

Well every year we still wait for more...it's like we've been dating this chick for 3 months and we won't even take our pants off when we get in the bedroom even though we can tell how hot her pussy is when we pull the chair out at the restaurant. She probably thinks we're gay at this point. Pretty soon she'll want to take us shoe shopping
Classic. And spot on.

_________________
"I wish Fraudlin would get testicular cancer and die after he watches me anally penetrate his wife."


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