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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:50 am 
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it's still yggy wrote:
I think there are two stories here. First is the thing that made ben a truly unique historical qb talent, i.e. The ability to extend plays, fight off and through pressure and improvise, has diminished with age. That's a tough pill to swallow but that's the reality. I think he even except that.

Now we come to Haley. Bit of a paradox here. Because I generally agree with the idea that they are trying to turn ben into a pocket quarterback. But like I pointed out some of this has to happen because that youthful ability to allude the rush and make plays is falling off and it has to be converted into reading the feel better.

So ben has a big contract to finish out his career and in comes Haley with the marching orders to run the ball and choose quick release type passes. It looks like he's hamstringing ben but it's all part of this is more nuanced plan. It's a paradox because it appears the plays are really stupid at times yet ben is putting up very good numbers in general and taking if you were sacks.

Third quarter of this rats game is really irritating to me because you could really see the negative side of Haleys offense of conception. Yet they won.

Anyway you look at it this is what we're going to see for the next year or two until ben hang some up so I'm hoping for the best.
I agree mostly with everything. I'll add that I never thought BR was particularly smart. He knows football, but he's been playing a while, and DC's are accustomed to his game. Or Haley's game. But I do think he's a bit intellectually lazy. I also think he's a bit pissed that the entire team isn't as dedicated to details and winning as him, so he's not going to sacrifice his body. . . I think he threw the ball away twice yesterday. Something he hardly ever does.

On the other hand, Haley tries to lull defenses to sleep and keeps the real playbook for emergencies so as not to put too much on film until later in the season. It also gets the o line practicing against quality opponents that want to win, as opposed to preseason games which are about identifying talent in an NFL setting. BR has said in the past that the run game is always the focus in the first part of the season, and the passing game follows afterwards. So the idea of treating the first quarter of the season like preseason isn't so far fetched.

The thing that is team is lacking is rhythm. Drives constantly get stalled or stopped by penalties or stupid play calls where the defense already knows what's coming. Passers need to get into a rhythm, and BR isn't getting any help.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:55 am 
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KC wrote:
No bigger Ben fan here than me and I think we're at the point where Roethlisberger just can't make amazing things happen CONSISTENTLY anymore.

He just can't.

We'll see a few games where he will absolutely wow us with a 5 TD pass performance, etc. but for the most part....yesterday is going to be the norm.

Sadly.


But KC...

The game plan yesterday wasn't for a 5 TD kind of passing game.

Our first trip into the RZ and we didn't even throw the football past the first down marker let alone the EZ.

He still has the arm strength. He lost his elusiveness. He can make all the throws.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:59 am 
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Havoc wrote:
KC wrote:
No bigger Ben fan here than me and I think we're at the point where Roethlisberger just can't make amazing things happen CONSISTENTLY anymore.

He just can't.

We'll see a few games where he will absolutely wow us with a 5 TD pass performance, etc. but for the most part....yesterday is going to be the norm.

Sadly.


But KC...

The game plan yesterday wasn't for a 5 TD kind of passing game.

Our first trip into the RZ and we didn't even throw the football past the first down marker let alone the EZ.

He still has the arm strength. He lost his elusiveness. He can make all the throws.


He sure doesn't seem to make those throws very accurately anymore.

His deep balls have no touch anymore. As someone else said in this thread, Ben's strong-arming everything.

Even the pass early in the Bear's game that people are giving Bryant shit about for "dropping", maybe John Stallworth catches that.

Would have been one tremendous grab had he made it. There was no touch on that ball, it was a line drive.

Everything from Ben now is a line drive.

Just slower at everything. Even decision-making.

As I said, he'll have a few big-time games this year. I'll be surprised if he doesn't, but yesterday's game is likely going to be the norm.

He isn't far from the end.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:04 pm 
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I mentioned last week and mention again now.
This head coach and offensive coordinator make it so much more challanging and difficult to play QB for the Pittsburgh Steelers.

The deeper they get into their tenure as coaches for this team............the more they bury themselves into an offense that becomes one dimensional and an offense that will eventually doom them.

They are so enamored with possessing the clock and running the ball they continue to fail at developing a balance and a any rhythm for this offense.

Yesterday was a prime example.
We started to take the air out of the ball and kill clock our very first possession of the second half.
We had a combined 25 first and second down plays in the second half........AND RAN THE BALL ON 21 of those plays.

What quarterback is going to run up passing yards with this type of obtuse game philosophy, planning and play calling.

These simple minded coaches think shortening the game, showing nothing and getting out with a victory will make the game easier for the team. Will keep players from getting injured.
Yet does the opposite. Results in our players exhausting every last ounce of energy to the final whistle. Piles on the number of touches for Bell and takes away any opportunities for Ben to build confidence and familiarity with JuJu, Bryant, Hunter, Connor, etc. A third quarter that was game planned to come out with a balanced offense, strike early and go from 19-0 to 26-0 or 29-0 would have resulted in Bell getting half the 4th quarter off. Ben out of the game, Landry some reps, Conner and Watson some more carries. Hunter and McDonald some work.

Tomlin will never learn from his mistakes.
Did Lev Bell really need to carry the ball 35 times in a game in which we had a double digit lead most of the time.
35 carries and 4 catches.
He touched 39 of the 73 offensive plays. 53%

He did this down the stretch last year and first 2 rounds of the playoffs.
Almost makes every pass of the offensive passing game a critical one in a high pressure situation.
High pressure situations, especially on the road....amps up the home crowd, boosts the defense and creates communication problems.

10-1 in their last 11 regular season games.

Lev and Ben have played in 10 of those games.
In those 10 games Lev Bell has 295 touches. 30 per game.
Those totals includes a Lev Bell light day on opening day of only 10 carries vs Cleveland.

In Bells last 10 games and the 2 playoff games, he has 358 touches in 12 games.
30 touches per game.

He is on pace to have 477 touches in his last 16 games.
Thats way beyond insane.

Only 5 times in NFL history has a player had 450 or more touches in a season.
Only one season of anyone with more than 360 touches.
James Wilder - 492 touches in 1984.

There is something seriously wrong with this mentality.
He states he will "run the wheels off" like its a good thing.
How has that worked the last few years?

Meanwhile we have an offensive passing game that stands around as props and scenery for quarters at a time and then is asked to look sharp when called upon or forced to.

Its an offensive philosophy that is imbalanced, predictable and defendable when coming across smarter or better teams with game plans to stop it.

I have been critical of Ben the last few years.
Do not think he puts the time in that other top QB's put in.
Takes much more time off than someone looking to be great does.
Does not work on his craft, the small things, the footwork. does not put enough energy and urgency into his practices.
Does not keep his body in tip top shape. I believe he was proud of taking up rowing one off season.
Too many off days during camp and the season. Especially with so many new faces to develop a chemistry with....( JuJU, Hunter, McDonald, Connor, Watson....not to mention the time off with Bryant and the fact that the 2 other TEs are still learning and raw - James and Grimble.

I think he has always had the mentality of grab his helmet, run on the field and go play ball and chuck it around.
2 Super Bowl wins came way to easy.

All that being said about the coaching, game planning, philosophy and mentality of this Head Coach.............
This offense and QB may always under perform while Tomlin is head coach.

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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:15 pm 
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I see a few major issues with the offense over the past year. One is they are too run heavy. Why? Partly because of Todd Haley. But the real elephant in the room is the receiving weapons aren't any damn good.

Ayers and Hamilton were top 3 guys down the stretch last year. Both are now out of the league. Coates was a top guy too, now he's rotting on the bench in Cleveland. This year JuJu is a rookie learning on the job and Bryant is shaking off a years worth of rust. Rogers is a fringe NFL talent. The TE group is as bad as you'll find in the NFL. All of this forces the ball to AB or dump offs to Bell.
Hopefully Bryant and Juju get up to speed, but suspension and injury limited their time with Ben in camp.

As far as Ben goes, he has lost mobility. That crazy scramble play for a big gain is all but gone. Look at the young QBs in the league who are succeeding, they all have that scramble ability Ben has lost. His arm and decision making are as good as ever. Accuracy this year hasn't been great yet, but I think that will change. Juju and Bryant need to step up. A TE needs to emerge. The o line needs to quit killing 4 drives a game with penalties.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:18 pm 
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SP wrote:
I see a few major issues with the offense over the past year. One is they are too run heavy. Why? Partly because of Todd Haley. But the real elephant in the room is the receiving weapons aren't any damn good.

Ayers and Hamilton were top 3 guys down the stretch last year. Both are now out of the league. Coates was a top guy too, now he's rotting on the bench in Cleveland. This year JuJu is a rookie learning on the job and Bryant is shaking off a years worth of rust. Rogers is a fringe NFL talent. The TE group is as bad as you'll find in the NFL. All of this forces the ball to AB or dump offs to Bell.
Hopefully Bryant and Juju get up to speed, but suspension and injury limited their time with Ben in camp.

As far as Ben goes, he has lost mobility. That crazy scramble play for a big gain is all but gone. Look at the young QBs in the league who are succeeding, they all have that scramble ability Ben has lost. His arm and decision making are as good as ever. Accuracy this year hasn't been great yet, but I think that will change. Juju and Bryant need to step up. A TE needs to emerge. The o line needs to quit killing 4 drives a game with penalties.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:20 pm 
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KC wrote:
No bigger Ben fan here than me and I think we're at the point where Roethlisberger just can't make amazing things happen CONSISTENTLY anymore.

He just can't.

We'll see a few games where he will absolutely wow us with a 5 TD pass performance, etc. but for the most part....yesterday is going to be the norm.

Sadly.


This is where I am at also KC. And I agree with most that Haley generally sucks balls, but we all know why he was brought in in the first place was because Ben was getting killed under Arians, the same way Palmer os getting killed currently, something had to change or I don’t think Ben would still ne playing today. I don’t mind a heavy dose of running the ball especially if we are winning games doing it, just wish they would lighten the load on Bell some, keep him around 20-25 touches a game max, we need both Ben and Bell on the field come playoff time imo. I think its time to give Conner 8-12 touches per game and Watson 3-5, both have shown in limited action that they can be productive. I also wonder if part of their overall plan is to limit the hits Ben takes during the course of the season so he is healtier in January and February.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:24 pm 
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SP wrote:
I see a few major issues with the offense over the past year. One is they are too run heavy. Why? Partly because of Todd Haley. But the real elephant in the room is the receiving weapons aren't any damn good.

Ayers and Hamilton were top 3 guys down the stretch last year. Both are now out of the league. Coates was a top guy too, now he's rotting on the bench in Cleveland. This year JuJu is a rookie learning on the job and Bryant is shaking off a years worth of rust. Rogers is a fringe NFL talent. The TE group is as bad as you'll find in the NFL. All of this forces the ball to AB or dump offs to Bell.
Hopefully Bryant and Juju get up to speed, but suspension and injury limited their time with Ben in camp.

As far as Ben goes, he has lost mobility. That crazy scramble play for a big gain is all but gone. Look at the young QBs in the league who are succeeding, they all have that scramble ability Ben has lost. His arm and decision making are as good as ever. Accuracy this year hasn't been great yet, but I think that will change. Juju and Bryant need to step up. A TE needs to emerge. The o line needs to quit killing 4 drives a game with penalties.


All good points, WR position did mainly suck last year and if the o-line and wr’s would commit less penalties I am sure we would have scored more points. One good thing about most Tomlin teams in the past is they usually get better as the season progresses.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:35 pm 
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SP wrote:
I see a few major issues with the offense over the past year. One is they are too run heavy. Why? Partly because of Todd Haley. But the real elephant in the room is the receiving weapons aren't any damn good.

Ayers and Hamilton were top 3 guys down the stretch last year. Both are now out of the league. Coates was a top guy too, now he's rotting on the bench in Cleveland. This year JuJu is a rookie learning on the job and Bryant is shaking off a years worth of rust. Rogers is a fringe NFL talent. The TE group is as bad as you'll find in the NFL. All of this forces the ball to AB or dump offs to Bell.
Hopefully Bryant and Juju get up to speed, but suspension and injury limited their time with Ben in camp.

As far as Ben goes, he has lost mobility. That crazy scramble play for a big gain is all but gone. Look at the young QBs in the league who are succeeding, they all have that scramble ability Ben has lost. His arm and decision making are as good as ever. Accuracy this year hasn't been great yet, but I think that will change. Juju and Bryant need to step up. A TE needs to emerge. The o line needs to quit killing 4 drives a game with penalties.


Terrific summary. I think JJ is getting there, not sure about MB.


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 Post subject: Re: Is Ben capable of carrying the PS anymore?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:40 pm 
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Right now, I think the play calling is an issue, but they may know something that I don't. Tomlin typically is ultra conservative on the road versus Baltimore. I thought Ben should have gotten rid of the ball quicker than what I saw yesterday, but it made me wonder if the right options were available to him that would make quick decisions possible. I don't buy the argument that the WR's are not any good. Brady and Brees would love this arsenal, and so would a vast majority of NFL QB's. Ben's going to have to show that he can make good/great things happen with the opportunities that he's given. Meanwhile - Conner and Watson should get more reps, we may need a RB by committee before season's end.

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