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 Post subject: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:34 am 
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Has Ben "lost it" ? What's up with the scheme of the passing game? I mean it's 90% dink and dunk, Joe Walton on steroids, screen, bubble screen, shuttle pass, 2 yard slant, 4 yard cross on 3rd and 8? then other than that, maybe a long bomb or 2 down the sideline, rarely say, passes across the middle in the 10-20 yard range. Always passes where the ball is in the air a short distance and you depend on the receiver YAC to pick up yards. And mix in the runs and you're looking at the need to run 15 plays to move 80 yards, leaving little room for error. Then in the red zone, are you telling me you can't get a TE open, and you're throwing low % corner routes to AB? Do they not trust Ben's arm anymore? And what's up with the bug TE find, McDonald? James is way better from what we've seen. This is not the fantastic 30ppg offense they where telling us about.


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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:42 am 
Todd Haley. End of story.


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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:07 am 
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Nick79 wrote:
Has Ben "lost it" ? What's up with the scheme of the passing game? I mean it's 90% dink and dunk, Joe Walton on steroids, screen, bubble screen, shuttle pass, 2 yard slant, 4 yard cross on 3rd and 8? then other than that, maybe a long bomb or 2 down the sideline, rarely say, passes across the middle in the 10-20 yard range. Always passes where the ball is in the air a short distance and you depend on the receiver YAC to pick up yards. And mix in the runs and you're looking at the need to run 15 plays to move 80 yards, leaving little room for error. Then in the red zone, are you telling me you can't get a TE open, and you're throwing low % corner routes to AB? Do they not trust Ben's arm anymore? And what's up with the bug TE find, McDonald? James is way better from what we've seen. This is not the fantastic 30ppg offense they where telling us about.


I'm far, FAR from a Haley supporter, but the players aren't doing any favors, either. They showed a stat during the Jags game that Ben was something like 2 for 14 on long passes this season (forget their criteria for a long pass, guessing 20+ yards). That seems to be a combination of guys not being open when Ben throws them (AB usually double/triple teamed, which is probably more on Ben to just not that throw it in those cases and Martavis "The Next Randy Moss" Bryant being completely invisible and not being open and/or not making the catch, and then Ben just flat out missing guys, too).

I'm with you on throwing more over the intermediate middle, though. That's usually Ben's sweet spot and I think it hampers him that we're not targeting it a lot. Not sure what the deal is, there. I haven't watched the All-22 or anything, so I don't know if those plays are getting called and guys aren't getting open, if they're not getting called at all, or if maybe Ben is audibling out of them. No idea. But I have noticed that we heavily favor the outside throws, which is really hampering us right now.

If I could add one thing into this offense right now it'd be a legit tight end. Maybe Ben just doesn't trust any of our TEs ot make the tight catches over the middle that Heath made reliably. I dunno. I really don't, and it annoys the hell out of me.


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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:21 am 
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I don’t believe Ben has lost it. We just need to be more agressive on offense.

Quit throwing passes at the chain gang and start throwing toward the end zone.

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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:23 am 
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Yes, it is offensive - hot garbage in the middle of a humid summer kind of way. I think the protection has been decent, not stellar. Is Ben holding the ball too long like he used to, or are the WR's not getting separation? Are the routes taking too long to develop? Maybe someone will All-22 can answer those questions.

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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:27 am 
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I'd love someone to do an All-22 analysis and see whether our guys truly aren't getting open.

I can't believe we are the only team in the NFL that have players that never get open, scheme or no scheme.

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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:42 am 
Jeemie wrote:
I'd love someone to do an All-22 analysis and see whether our guys truly aren't getting open.

I can't believe we are the only team in the NFL that have players that never get open, scheme or no scheme.



Its pretty easy to see even with just broadcast tv. Its been that way for a while


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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:52 am 
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It's the patented "U" pass game developed by Haley and signed off on by Tomlin. Revolutionary.

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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:56 am 
R S wrote:
It's the patented "U" pass game developed by Haley and signed off on by Tomlin. Revolutionary.



I dont know if its wholly signed off on by Tomlin or not. I dont think his heart is in it. He puts up with it tho.


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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:59 am 
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Some analyst I ran across yesterday made the point that Haley is reacting to Ben being limited in what we feels he can do.

Sporting news also called out steelers OLand MB specifically. Really everyone outside of AB and decastro has been below expectation. I guess juju is on the rise.

It’s really hard to find anything to like about this offense now from general game plan to play calls to execution across the board by 9 players. Tomlin doesn’t have them playing varsity ball


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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:14 am 
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SteelerChef wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
I'd love someone to do an All-22 analysis and see whether our guys truly aren't getting open.

I can't believe we are the only team in the NFL that have players that never get open, scheme or no scheme.



Its pretty easy to see even with just broadcast tv. Its been that way for a while


No- not really since most routes run off the TV screen.

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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:47 am 
Jeemie wrote:
SteelerChef wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
I'd love someone to do an All-22 analysis and see whether our guys truly aren't getting open.

I can't believe we are the only team in the NFL that have players that never get open, scheme or no scheme.



Its pretty easy to see even with just broadcast tv. Its been that way for a while


No- not really since most routes run off the TV screen.


How bout for once you cut with the simpleton bs ok ?

Youve never seen a pass to reciever ?


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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:51 am 
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SteelerChef wrote:
How bout for once you cut with the simpleton bs ok ?

Youve never seen a pass to reciever ?


I see lots of passes to receivers.

What I don't see on regular TV are the other receivers to whom the ball is not thrown.

I don't see whether there are receivers open that Ben misses because of the way he does his progressions or whatever.

There are hints that he misses open receivers sometimes to throw to his favorite targets...who happen to be covered.

I do not believe that on every single pass play, every receiver is tightly covered.

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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:00 am 
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The thing that I don't like though, is that it seems like the really, really short passes aren't the check downs because the guys down field didn't get open, they are usually the primary play. Even on 3rd and long, on a 3rd and 10, they are just as likely to throw a bubble screen and pray that the runner gets YAC and picks up the 1st down, rather than run routes past the sticks, not always, but very often and it does work sometimes. But with a QB of the supposed caliber of Ben, it seems they are playing extremely safe, half the passing game are just these de facto run plays. people complain we don't run the ball enough, I'd argue we run too much sometimes, because these shuffle passes and bubble screens are just a different kind of hand off.


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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:32 am 
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I don't feel like we run bunch formation any longer. Used to be relatively good at generating open looks.


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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:55 am 
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R S wrote:
It's the patented "U" pass game developed by Haley and signed off on by Tomlin. Revolutionary.

We did have three picks last week on intermediate throws between the numbers, but that is progress... because we haven't even been trying.

Two tipped balls and a play where the QB got rocked as he threw it. I would guess Haley's position is that the OL doesn't pass pro well enough to throw intermediate.

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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:56 am 
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Zeke5123 wrote:
I don't feel like we run bunch formation any longer. Used to be relatively good at generating open looks.

Uncle Brucie's bread and butter.

It was particularly good because it forces either zone coverage or for one of the man to man guys to be wasted on being a force player-- his job is to disrupt the point of the bunch spear, then take man on the shortest route. If that short route receiver ends up being, say, the TE, then you've got the possibility of a one on one matchup in the offense's favor, since the D doesn't get to choose the matchups.

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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:05 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
R S wrote:
It's the patented "U" pass game developed by Haley and signed off on by Tomlin. Revolutionary.

We did have three picks last week on intermediate throws between the numbers, but that is progress... because we haven't even been trying.

Two tipped balls and a play where the QB got rocked as he threw it. I would guess Haley's position is that the OL doesn't pass pro well enough to throw intermediate.


I could be remembering wrong, but it seemed the intermediate passing started showing up in the 2nd half as they fell behind. Early in the game it feels like it's the patented "U".

PS: At no time did I think, "damn, Ben is not getting any time to throw the ball" As a whole, the pass pro was adequate.

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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:51 pm 
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R S wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
R S wrote:
It's the patented "U" pass game developed by Haley and signed off on by Tomlin. Revolutionary.

We did have three picks last week on intermediate throws between the numbers, but that is progress... because we haven't even been trying.

Two tipped balls and a play where the QB got rocked as he threw it. I would guess Haley's position is that the OL doesn't pass pro well enough to throw intermediate.


I could be remembering wrong, but it seemed the intermediate passing started showing up in the 2nd half as they fell behind. Early in the game it feels like it's the patented "U".

PS: At no time did I think, "damn, Ben is not getting any time to throw the ball" As a whole, the pass pro was adequate.

absolutely on the bolded. Pass pro had some big problems-- not just OL but RBs

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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:55 pm 
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Ben’s first pick happened bang bang but just as the camera was following the pass you could see Conner whiffed on the blitz. Bad fucking play from the young guy and cost us points.


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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:06 pm 
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By the way, can someone please offer a justification for the double move call from 3rd and Goal at the 2 yard line?

I cannot get that play out of my head as a perfect example of how royally fucked we are in red zone offensive scheme.


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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:45 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:
By the way, can someone please offer a justification for the double move call from 3rd and Goal at the 2 yard line?

I cannot get that play out of my head as a perfect example of how royally fucked we are in red zone offensive scheme.


Horrible, 3rd and goal and you go to a tight spot where everything has to be perfect. I remember thinking he should have at least thrown if behind him and make him come back for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:56 pm 
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it's still yggy wrote:
Some analyst I ran across yesterday made the point that Haley is reacting to Ben being limited in what we feels he can do.


I'm calling bullshit on that. Not that they didn't say it, but that it's BS. It sounds like something Haley would say trying to cover his ass, or Ben being diplomatic about running plays he thinks are complete shit.

Ben is ultra competitive. I guarantee he's not crying about things he doesn't believe he can do...even if he actually can't do them, I guarantee he doesn't believe that, unless it's running the option.


Yep, it's the patented "U-gun" offense. Easy to defend when the QB doesn't throw bulls-eyes all over the field.

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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Nick79 wrote:
Orangesteel wrote:
By the way, can someone please offer a justification for the double move call from 3rd and Goal at the 2 yard line?

I cannot get that play out of my head as a perfect example of how royally fucked we are in red zone offensive scheme.


Horrible, 3rd and goal and you go to a tight spot where everything has to be perfect. I remember thinking he should have at least thrown if behind him and make him come back for it.


Ha, that would have been a triple move from the 2!

Maybe Haley will roll out that bullshit this week...


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 Post subject: Re: Offensive Passing Scheme?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:14 pm 
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SteelerChef wrote:
Mike Tomlin. End of story.


Sounds accurate.


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