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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:07 am 
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Stinger8 wrote:
treat88 wrote:
Zeke5123 wrote:
If you think Ben has had only a near HOF career.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Ben had a great first half. They attacked the middle of the field, and made a lot of hay. Only like what we all were talking about. In the second half, complete turtle ball.


It's still in question man. He needs to go out on a high note to seal the deal.


Ben is 9th in career passing yards and will, barring injury pass Warren Moon this year into 8th. Rivers is behind Ben by approx 1,000 yards and if Ben retires at years end, which I believe will happen and Rivers plays, which I believe will happen he will pass #7 for 8th. If being the 9th best all time passer in yards makes you a questionable HOFer than I have no idea what you have to do to get inducted. No brainer he is in. Ergo I guess what I am also saying is that Rivers will get in too??? :shock: :shock: :o :o :o


And also ergo, Eli is just as much as a lock as Ben?

I don't know man, I don't see either Rivers or E.Manning as HoF caliber players. IMO, he's a clear step ahead of them, but statistically Ben is right in their range. Give him a 3rd SB ring and he's a lock. Absent MVP's, SB MVP's, OPOYs, leading the league in passing stats (TDs, or yards) multiple years, he's borderline IMO. Having watched the guys career, I'd put him in. The way the voting gos I'd be surprised with a first ballot entry. Ultimately if nothing changes I think he will have to wait a few years to get in once eligible, but I'd be very happy to be wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:08 am 
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None of us are there in March and April to know exactly what Ben is doing to prepare. We are just guessing at this point.

The issue to longevity in my opinion is not so much conditioning (a contributing factor but not the key one) but rather how many hits have you had in your career. Up in New England, I can remember maybe ONE mediocre offensive line in 17 years. Otherwise, Brady's olines have been terrific. He's barely touched and the scheme has helped him a ton. He also goes fetal quicker than other QBs so on that point you can certainly blame Ben for trying to make plays and take shots.

Now, let's compare that to Ben. Roethlisberger enjoyed a nice offensive line his first couple seasons. After that, he was beaten to a pulp. It's a minor miracle he won a Super Bowl with the likes of Darnell Stapleton blocking for him. I'm not sure we really appreciate what a feat that was. Even behind this so-called "amazing" 2017 offensive line, he's taking more shots this year because AV and Hubbard have been bad.

It's foolish to think those shots don't take a toll and that you can just do P90x all summer and make up for that. I guarantee you...if Brady had Ben's offensive lines from about 2006 to 2015, he'd be out of the league. No way he survives that.


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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:14 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Why is it accepted as a fact that Ben doesn't work out in the offseason and that he doesn't study?

Whatever.

I think Ben and offense left some plays on the field, which is actually a good thing when you can still say you won and when you can still point to obvious signs of improvement in both approach and execution. Bet you Ben looks a whole lot less "rusty" and "average" if they get into the flow of the passing game and use of the middle of the field.

Yesterday was exhibit A of what's been missing from the Steelers offensive plan: better run blocking, better protection, better flow for the RB, use of the intermediate middle, spreading the ball around.


Oh everyone agrees he works out. The disagreement is over whether his workouts are a fucking joke compared to what other QBs do to be in the best physical shape for their particular position. Ben has two fucking chins. He doesn't need to look like Bell or AB but come on B2B. You can't possibly think Ben does everything he can to be in peak possible shape. At his age and with his wear he needs to.

The notion that longevity has nothing to do with conditioning strikes me as utterly absurd.

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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:20 am 
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It’s funny to me that Ben’s worst pass yesterday ended up going for 50 yards and a TD. Man if you were a Chiefs fan you would be saying WTF.


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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:22 am 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Why is it accepted as a fact that Ben doesn't work out in the offseason and that he doesn't study?

Whatever.

I think Ben and offense left some plays on the field, which is actually a good thing when you can still say you won and when you can still point to obvious signs of improvement in both approach and execution. Bet you Ben looks a whole lot less "rusty" and "average" if they get into the flow of the passing game and use of the middle of the field.

Yesterday was exhibit A of what's been missing from the Steelers offensive plan: better run blocking, better protection, better flow for the RB, use of the intermediate middle, spreading the ball around.


Haley sent Mcdonald deep and it helped open things up. That incomplete pass they missed in 1st half set up big goal line pass to get Steelers out of jail.


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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:31 am 
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franco32 wrote:
None of us are there in March and April to know exactly what Ben is doing to prepare. We are just guessing at this point.

The issue to longevity in my opinion is not so much conditioning (a contributing factor but not the key one) but rather how many hits have you had in your career. Up in New England, I can remember maybe ONE mediocre offensive line in 17 years. Otherwise, Brady's olines have been terrific. He's barely touched and the scheme has helped him a ton. He also goes fetal quicker than other QBs so on that point you can certainly blame Ben for trying to make plays and take shots.

Now, let's compare that to Ben. Roethlisberger enjoyed a nice offensive line his first couple seasons. After that, he was beaten to a pulp. It's a minor miracle he won a Super Bowl with the likes of Darnell Stapleton blocking for him. I'm not sure we really appreciate what a feat that was. Even behind this so-called "amazing" 2017 offensive line, he's taking more shots this year because AV and Hubbard have been bad.

It's foolish to think those shots don't take a toll and that you can just do P90x all summer and make up for that. I guarantee you...if Brady had Ben's offensive lines from about 2006 to 2015, he'd be out of the league. No way he survives that.


Ok I went to a web site to calculate is body mass index. I assume he is 6'5 and 265, that gives him a BMI of 32, which classifies him as obese. I guarantee you if he did PX90 all summer he would not be 265 ( in my opinion probably weighs more). The issue we are debating is does he do the work in the off season NOT how many hits he has taken. Does he do the work?? If he did he would not be "obese". Start a new thread on the hits that is another topic.


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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:51 am 
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BMI is a pretty horrible way to measure athletes' fitness. They're all pretty much over 30.


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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:58 am 
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Ice wrote:
BMI is a pretty horrible way to measure athletes' fitness. They're all pretty much over 30.


I agree its not the best but arguing our guy does the work or we dont know if he does or doesn't in the off season and/or its not important is fallacious. It is obvious he is on cruise control so accept it and hope for the best.


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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:59 am 
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Does anybody have a vid of Bell being held in the end zone?

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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:01 pm 
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Stinger8 wrote:
Ice wrote:
BMI is a pretty horrible way to measure athletes' fitness. They're all pretty much over 30.


I agree its not the best but arguing our guy does the work or we dont know if he does or doesn't in the off season and/or its not important is fallacious. It is obvious he is on cruise control so accept it and hope for the best.


Antonio Brown's BMI of 27.3 isn't far short of obese, for instance, and we all know what an undisciplined, unconscionable fatty AB is.


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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:06 pm 
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BMI? I don't care. I do care offense missed chance to skull fuck the Chefs. AB sitting down on slant was reason S.Holmes drove me to distraction. AB runs proper route and he is off to races deep in Chefs territory. AB sitting in end zone on 3rd and goal alone like he was in a leper colony? Yeah that had f all to do with BMI and everything to do with Ben getting tunnel vision on Bell. Decastro ticky tack hold? Maybe if Ben had less BMI he could've combo blocked and prevented hold? Bell not lowering shoulder on 3rd and 10 and allowing shitty KC safety to stop him short? I get it if Ben had less BMI he could blocked him...after he threw the pass. AB & Ju Ju playing this week's version of "free points for opponents?" Ben's excess weight on bench caused field to tilt?

Ben made one truly poor throw all game: AB made it into a 51 yard TD. Ben's decision making wasn't great but he showed more on road in hostile zoo that is KC than he has all season. His throw to AB in middle of field? To Ju Ju in tight as fuck window on 3rd down? His throw to McD on goaline? That is what we expect and he delivered. The slice of luck? FFS given Jags had x 2 Int TD off tipped balls (barely tipped at that) I'm not going caterwaul about some luck Steelers fucking merited.


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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:12 pm 
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steelclan wrote:
His throw to McD on goaline?
Yeah. That one was perfectly placed. With touch. But wtf? the throw that turned into a TD could have easily been intercepted. It should have. I'll bet the defender is working the juggs machine this week. It was a bad decision, but how many QB's are perfect with every throw?

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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:23 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
steelclan wrote:
His throw to McD on goaline?
Yeah. That one was perfectly placed. With touch. But wtf? the throw that turned into a TD could have easily been intercepted. It should have. I'll bet the defender is working the juggs machine this week. It was a bad decision, but how many QB's are perfect with every throw?


As I noted luck is swings and roundabouts. Steelers have had some real shit luck in Bears and Jags games. They had one lucky play v Chefs and boat load of missed chances that should've put game away long before that luck came.


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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:26 pm 
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steelclan wrote:
BMI? I don't care. I do care offense missed chance to skull fuck the Chefs. AB sitting down on slant was reason S.Holmes drove me to distraction. AB runs proper route and he is off to races deep in Chefs territory. AB sitting in end zone on 3rd and goal alone like he was in a leper colony? Yeah that had f all to do with BMI and everything to do with Ben getting tunnel vision on Bell. Decastro ticky tack hold? Maybe if Ben had less BMI he could've combo blocked and prevented hold? Bell not lowering shoulder on 3rd and 10 and allowing shitty KC safety to stop him short? I get it if Ben had less BMI he could blocked him...after he threw the pass. AB & Ju Ju playing this week's version of "free points for opponents?" Ben's excess weight on bench caused field to tilt?

Ben made one truly poor throw all game: AB made it into a 51 yard TD. Ben's decision making wasn't great but he showed more on road in hostile zoo that is KC than he has all season. His throw to AB in middle of field? To Ju Ju in tight as fuck window on 3rd down? His throw to McD on goaline? That is what we expect and he delivered. The slice of luck? FFS given Jags had x 2 Int TD off tipped balls (barely tipped at that) I'm not going caterwaul about some luck Steelers fucking merited.




Bell kicked out and had Justin Houston covering him. Ben did and should go to Bell there every day all day just like every other QB in their right mind would and the ref missed a DPI on Houston as bell got held up by the hip.


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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:28 pm 
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GreekSteel wrote:
steelclan wrote:
BMI? I don't care. I do care offense missed chance to skull fuck the Chefs. AB sitting down on slant was reason S.Holmes drove me to distraction. AB runs proper route and he is off to races deep in Chefs territory. AB sitting in end zone on 3rd and goal alone like he was in a leper colony? Yeah that had f all to do with BMI and everything to do with Ben getting tunnel vision on Bell. Decastro ticky tack hold? Maybe if Ben had less BMI he could've combo blocked and prevented hold? Bell not lowering shoulder on 3rd and 10 and allowing shitty KC safety to stop him short? I get it if Ben had less BMI he could blocked him...after he threw the pass. AB & Ju Ju playing this week's version of "free points for opponents?" Ben's excess weight on bench caused field to tilt?

Ben made one truly poor throw all game: AB made it into a 51 yard TD. Ben's decision making wasn't great but he showed more on road in hostile zoo that is KC than he has all season. His throw to AB in middle of field? To Ju Ju in tight as fuck window on 3rd down? His throw to McD on goaline? That is what we expect and he delivered. The slice of luck? FFS given Jags had x 2 Int TD off tipped balls (barely tipped at that) I'm not going caterwaul about some luck Steelers fucking merited.




Bell kicked out and had Justin Houston covering him. Ben did and should go to Bell there every day all day just like every other QB in their right mind would and the ref missed a DPI on Houston as bell got held up by the hip.


AB had grass covering him.


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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:10 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Why is it accepted as a fact that Ben doesn't work out in the offseason and that he doesn't study?

Whatever.

I think Ben and offense left some plays on the field, which is actually a good thing when you can still say you won and when you can still point to obvious signs of improvement in both approach and execution. Bet you Ben looks a whole lot less "rusty" and "average" if they get into the flow of the passing game and use of the middle of the field.

Yesterday was exhibit A of what's been missing from the Steelers offensive plan: better run blocking, better protection, better flow for the RB, use of the intermediate middle, spreading the ball around.


Oh everyone agrees he works out. The disagreement is over whether his workouts are a fucking joke compared to what other QBs do to be in the best physical shape for their particular position. Ben has two fucking chins. He doesn't need to look like Bell or AB but come on B2B. You can't possibly think Ben does everything he can to be in peak possible shape. At his age and with his wear he needs to.

The notion that longevity has nothing to do with conditioning strikes me as utterly absurd.

I usually agree with most everything b2b states Steelers wise, but this is where I don't. It surprises me that he seems pretty open-minded to most critiques about players, but it seems he refuses to use his eyes and ears when it comes to Ben' conditioning and film study habits as compared to some of the other "elite" QBs his age or older. These two areas are extremely important for longevity and effectiveness at this stage of his career, imo. If he was really driven to work as hard in those areas he could be so much more...dare I say GOAT. I guess having great physical abilities can be a detriment sometimes. Doing less with more instead of more with less...


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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:45 pm 
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Ben's film study and presnap reads are absolutely among the best in the league. You can argue postsnap reads or decision-making, if you like, but I definitely don't get where Ben doesn't study comes from. 2004? That's a long time ago, and by 2009 he was pretty advanced in that regard.

As for offseason routine-- I'm merely saying we have no idea, really, how hard he works or what his goals and the goals set for him by the team's strength & conditioning people are. For all we know, they advocated him building some bulk to take the hits.

I don't think Ben is some kind of elite athlete, but he's not really made like that. For all of Brady's diet and workout, he doesn't look like one, either.

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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:54 pm 
America 2017 B2B

Spread enough bullshit, half truths, lies, innuendo and it becomes perceived fact


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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:57 pm 
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SteelerChef wrote:
America 2017 B2B

Spread enough bullshit, half truths, lies, innuendo and it becomes perceived fact
Placing B2B in the same arena as america is just plain stupid and trolling. Please. Shut.The.Fuck.Up. Go back to grease pushing.

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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:02 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Ben's film study and presnap reads are absolutely among the best in the league. You can argue postsnap reads or decision-making, if you like, but I definitely don't get where Ben doesn't study comes from. 2004? That's a long time ago, and by 2009 he was pretty advanced in that regard.

As for offseason routine-- I'm merely saying we have no idea, really, how hard he works or what his goals and the goals set for him by the team's strength & conditioning people are. For all we know, they advocated him building some bulk to take the hits.

I don't think Ben is some kind of elite athlete, but he's not really made like that. For all of Brady's diet and workout, he doesn't look like one, either.

How can you say that Ben's film study are among the best in the league, but brush off his lack of conditioning by saying that we simply have no idea what his off season regimen is? Seems like you want to have it both ways.

Brady is twice the athlete Ben is at this point, his movement within the pocket is light years ahead of Ben. We're not expecting Ben to be the lean guy he was out of university, but his footwork and lateral movement really hinders his ability to avoid the rush.


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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:20 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Ben's film study and presnap reads are absolutely among the best in the league. You can argue postsnap reads or decision-making, if you like, but I definitely don't get where Ben doesn't study comes from. 2004? That's a long time ago, and by 2009 he was pretty advanced in that regard.

As for offseason routine-- I'm merely saying we have no idea, really, how hard he works or what his goals and the goals set for him by the team's strength & conditioning people are. For all we know, they advocated him building some bulk to take the hits.

I don't think Ben is some kind of elite athlete, but he's not really made like that. For all of Brady's diet and workout, he doesn't look like one, either.

It's been a few years, but I know I've heard Ben state multiple times (as well as others close to the team) that he's not a 'huge' film study guy. I also realize that with a lot of experience comes some aptitude in this area. You'll never convince me a football player being in top physical condition can't but help his ability to preform better and stay on the field longer. I get that some positions require a higher degree of that, so that's not what I'm talking about. Again, like I said, I'm comparing Ben to his peers. Brady, Brees, Eli, Peyton (retired now), Rivers, Rodgers, maybe even Ryan and Smith (this year). I seen (read/watch) plenty over the years to confirm those guys work very hard both on film and being at their physical peak. Again, not saying Ben does none of this, just less than some of his peers from what my eyes and ears tell me. The added weight could be for extra cushion, but it could also slow him from avoiding some hits and shortening his career.


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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:26 pm 
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seabs926 wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Ben's film study and presnap reads are absolutely among the best in the league. You can argue postsnap reads or decision-making, if you like, but I definitely don't get where Ben doesn't study comes from. 2004? That's a long time ago, and by 2009 he was pretty advanced in that regard.

As for offseason routine-- I'm merely saying we have no idea, really, how hard he works or what his goals and the goals set for him by the team's strength & conditioning people are. For all we know, they advocated him building some bulk to take the hits.

I don't think Ben is some kind of elite athlete, but he's not really made like that. For all of Brady's diet and workout, he doesn't look like one, either.

How can you say that Ben's film study are among the best in the league, but brush off his lack of conditioning by saying that we simply have no idea what his off season regimen is? Seems like you want to have it both ways.

Brady is twice the athlete Ben is at this point, his movement within the pocket is light years ahead of Ben. We're not expecting Ben to be the lean guy he was out of university, but his footwork and lateral movement really hinders his ability to avoid the rush.

IDK, man- few are the lean athlete they were in college. Ben's also a much bigger dude than Brady.

I watch Brady every week-- he wasn't looking so mobile and nimble against a good pass rush that was laying the lumber like yesterday. There is an awful lot of brand perception influence to this argument. Brady's brand is that he's meticulous about diet/exercise/fountain of youth/preparation and that Ben's just out there winging it/eating pizza/getting up off the couch to come to training camp.

It is fair to say, though, that I am basing my opinion of Ben's film study based on what I see on the field/tape and that I am brushing off what Ben looks like to a degree. However. I don't think Ben is fat-- I don't even think he's as heavy he was at peak Ben of a couple of years ago. His legs are definitely at least going if not gone, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:39 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
seabs926 wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Ben's film study and presnap reads are absolutely among the best in the league. You can argue postsnap reads or decision-making, if you like, but I definitely don't get where Ben doesn't study comes from. 2004? That's a long time ago, and by 2009 he was pretty advanced in that regard.

As for offseason routine-- I'm merely saying we have no idea, really, how hard he works or what his goals and the goals set for him by the team's strength & conditioning people are. For all we know, they advocated him building some bulk to take the hits.

I don't think Ben is some kind of elite athlete, but he's not really made like that. For all of Brady's diet and workout, he doesn't look like one, either.

How can you say that Ben's film study are among the best in the league, but brush off his lack of conditioning by saying that we simply have no idea what his off season regimen is? Seems like you want to have it both ways.

Brady is twice the athlete Ben is at this point, his movement within the pocket is light years ahead of Ben. We're not expecting Ben to be the lean guy he was out of university, but his footwork and lateral movement really hinders his ability to avoid the rush.

IDK, man- few are the lean athlete they were in college. Ben's also a much bigger dude than Brady.

I watch Brady every week-- he wasn't looking so mobile and nimble against a good pass rush that was laying the lumber like yesterday. There is an awful lot of brand perception influence to this argument. Brady's brand is that he's meticulous about diet/exercise/fountain of youth/preparation and that Ben's just out there winging it/eating pizza/getting up off the couch to come to training camp.

It is fair to say, though, that I am basing my opinion of Ben's film study based on what I see on the field/tape and that I am brushing off what Ben looks like to a degree. However. I don't think Ben is fat-- I don't even think he's as heavy he was at peak Ben of a couple of years ago. His legs are definitely at least going if not gone, though.

To be fair, I'm comparing 35 yo Brady to 35 yo Ben. But, when I watch just the degree that Brees works on his form just compensate for not being 6' 5" so he can throw/release from a higher platform it makes me feel Ben could certainly do more. When I look at/read about Brady, Brees and Rodgers I see guys doing just about everything they can to get the most out of what god gave them. I don't see the same level from Ben, sorry. I see 110% with those guys and maybe 100% with Ben.


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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:32 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
SteelerChef wrote:
America 2017 B2B

Spread enough bullshit, half truths, lies, innuendo and it becomes perceived fact
Placing B2B in the same arena as america is just plain stupid and trolling. Please. Shut.The.Fuck.Up. Go back to grease pushing.


A heartfelt thank you for this post.


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 Post subject: Re: Ref. Season # 6: Steelers @ Chiefs Game Comments
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:38 pm 
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Ben couldn't avoid Stephen Hawking at this point.

Even if Hawking lost one wheel.

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