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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:18 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Exactly, Jobu. You can blame Ben all day for the audibles and the choices-- but the options and personnel have to be on the field.

Also, Ben's been money on the deep throw on 3rd and short-- should have had 3-4 completions or DPIs. AB had an out and out drop, AB got interfered with 2x uncalled. Some of Ben' best throws have been deep balls on 3rd and short.

However, like most of you, I think they go to this well way too much, especially since it seems clear the officials aren't protecting AB or Ben the way they do some other offensive stars.


Exactly. Just move the chains. Play the percentages.

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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:14 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
Ben, Haley and, yes, Tomlin - ALL are on record liking to take those shots on man coverage. ALL of them have said it.

They are ALL dumb, but only 2 are paid to coach the team and manage the dumbfuckedness.


Suppose Haley magically puts in better route combo's on third and short. Fact remains, if Ben sees what he likes, he'll throw the long ball. He's into it. It's s thing for him. What should Tomlin do to keep Ben from doing this without neutering Ben's decision making authority?

We all agree Tomlin should not be deciding when to try it.

We all agree that a mandated CAP would be stupid.

So what do want Tomlin/Haley to do?

Maybe a better route tree would dissuade Ben, but I have my doubts.

Gotta go defrost my jeans.

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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:29 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
swissvale72 wrote:

I don't give a fuck whose idea it is, but the guy I hold responsible is the Head Coach.


This reply is neither astute nor the best of times, Swiss. Because it seems dumb to force your QB not to make certain throws. It's on Ben to make those decisions. Is Tomlin on the field able to read the defense so as to know when it is advisable to take a shot or not? Play goes in, Ben surveys the field, and makes a decision.

What exactly do you want Tomlin to do?

So you can hold the HC responsible all you want. But that's too simplistic in this particular, narrowly defined case to take seriously.

Fact is, the Haley-Ben combo is fucking lights out between the 20s. It's what happens when the field shortens that deserves derision.


Swiss is right on. Your post makes zero sense.

The head coach absolutely better have control over what his QB is thinking and looking to do on the majority of 3rd and short plays. I don’t agree with hamstringing your HoF QB entirely in that situation, but this offense needs reps and rhythm, not 3 and outs.

And the bolded above? What are you talking about? Precisely wrong. Narrowly defined cases are the easiest times for a HC or anyone to address.


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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:46 am 
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My post makes perfect sense; you just don't agree with it.

I'm wrong a lot, willing to realize I'm wrong, and especially don't give a shit if I'm wrong about football.

Start explaining how you expect Tomlin to micromanage when Ben should take long shots on 3rd and short and how many. Which reads? Which formations?

Please don't insult us by telling is you're not the coach so you do not know.

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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:54 am 
Icicle pants is right on this one 8-)

QB has to have sway on the field


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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:44 am 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
But I agree with Swiss that the long ball is happening on third and short is happening too much. I just disagree that there needs to be a Tomlin mandated quota on how often and when it happens. Ben needs to be smarter.

Suppose we get a Tomlin-mandated 3rd and short long ball quota. Suppose Ben uses up the quota. Suppose after using up the quota you have a free receiver streaking open down the field.

Welp, quota used up, so can't do it.

But, to repeat, I agree with you and Swiss, it's being done too much. I just disagree that the answer is to have Tomlin give ultimatums. Situational football and all that.

I guess I didn’t express myself well with my first response. I don’t expect Tomlin to take away the decision making, or even limit it. Just the opposite...he needs to expand it. It appears that the Steelers in short yardage it’s either the dive into a loaded front or the deep sideline fade to AB. Well, it’s not working. They need other options in short yardage situations, which in my opinion, is the best time to give the QB freedom to make the call at the line. But options must be on the field.
Out of curiosity, I looked at the second half against Cin, and the Steelers had four 3rd and 1s, and a 4th and 1. On 4 of the 5 plays, they lined up in the same formation...AB the lone wideout, with two TEs and another WR in tight opposite AB. IMO, that formation limits options, and favors the defense. There needs to be more to their short yardage game than options A and B, and it isn’t that hard to expand it. When you watch other short yardage offenses around the league, you see a variety of plays that spring guys open for easy pitch and catch. If Haley can’t come up with a more imaginative short yardage package, or if he has and BR won’t use it, then yes, Mike Tomlin needs to step in and get this shot straightened out...now!


well put Jobus.
The Steelers offense fools no one. Its all about execution. Defenses need to execute as well.
I've said it many times. A lot of the same sets and formations.Very little variation. Not enough motion.

Deception Scale = 0
Trickery Scale = 0 ( the pass on the punt does not move the zero on this scale for the offense )
Scheming Open = 1 ( I did not want to grade all zeros )

We need to incorporate some rubs and picks into this offense. Pats run these all day. Creates confusion, switches, pass off responsibilities and makes it difficult to get to a WR when you have to run thru or around another WR and a teammate.

And for all the height we have on offense..........

James 6'-7"
Bryant 6'-4"
McDonald 6'-4"
Grimble 6'-4"
Hunter 6'-4"
Villy 6'-9" ( saving this ace in the hole for the playoffs )

With all that height....I can not recall a single high pass to Bryant in the endzone, a fade, a jump ball.
Jessie James targeted at the back of the endzone with a high pass either a TD or out of bounds.
Grimble or McDonald down the seam when we are at the 15-18 yard line.

I think we focus way too much on getting closer to the endzone when we get inside the RedZone.........then the importance of actually getting into the end zone itself.

We look at 1st and goal at the 9 or 10 at using 1st and 2nd down to get closer.
We look at 1st and 10 at the 11-13 at getting closer and a new set of downs inside the three.

Which then packs defenses a little tighter with the resulting offensive play calling ...........that runs plays in front of the defense trying to make plays between the 3 and 5 yard line needing a quick pass, a catch, some blocks, some misses and some hope of making all that work to score a TD.

We had early success with the shovel passes that went for TD's......James, JuJu......
We did not get in on another of those plays. But, these are just more plays that fall in line of what i mention above, that the PS Redzone philosophy that does not put enough emphasis on plays in the endzone itself.

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Last edited by Stosh-67 on Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:47 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
My post makes perfect sense; you just don't agree with it.

I'm wrong a lot, willing to realize I'm wrong, and especially don't give a shit if I'm wrong about football.

Start explaining how you expect Tomlin to micromanage when Ben should take long shots on 3rd and short and how many. Which reads? Which formations?

Please don't insult us by telling is you're not the coach so you do not know.


lol is about all I can muster to this response. Reread my post. Where did I say micromanage? I said Tomlin absolutely can and should dictate certain aspects of 3rd and short. I mean, that’s coach/player 101.

Don’t make this out to be insulting. Situational football. You can’t see where there are instances in a game where a 1st down is of utmost importance and the head coach shouldn’t pull Haley and Ben aside and say “1st down, no bombs. ”

Really? Do I need to outline game specific scenarios?


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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:06 am 
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randomsteelerfan wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
My post makes perfect sense; you just don't agree with it.

I'm wrong a lot, willing to realize I'm wrong, and especially don't give a shit if I'm wrong about football.

Start explaining how you expect Tomlin to micromanage when Ben should take long shots on 3rd and short and how many. Which reads? Which formations?

Please don't insult us by telling is you're not the coach so you do not know.


lol is about all I can muster to this response. Reread my post. Where did I say micromanage? I said Tomlin absolutely can and should dictate certain aspects of 3rd and short. I mean, that’s coach/player 101.

Don’t make this out to be insulting. Situational football. You can’t see where there are instances in a game where a 1st down is of utmost importance and the head coach shouldn’t pull Haley and Ben aside and say “1st down, no bombs. ”

Really? Do I need to outline game specific scenarios?


Then it sounds like it is you who has not been followibg along altogether well. The mention of insult was in regard to saying something like "I don't know it it's Tomlin's job."

Of course, the debate, such as it is, is about bombs on third and short only. People are arguing to play the percentage and don't throw bombs. To which my response was ONLY that Ben is the guy on the field that has to read the defense and decide what to do given the play call. Apparently you want Tomlin to decide on any given 3rd and short ("how important is the third and short in question") whether to mandate that Ben not throw a bomb despite what Ben does or does not read.

So if we're not going to have Tomlin or Haley micromanage Ben on the field on third and short, what are you proposing happen exactly since none of us are so stupid as to suppose Ben should NEVER take those shots.

Jobus response was better than yours.

But even if Haley magically starts sending in better route combos that also have run options on third and short, Ben still has to make the read and decide the throw. Now you don't want Tomlin to micromanage, so what are you claiming?

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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:19 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
randomsteelerfan wrote:
[quote="Still Lit”]

lol is about all I can muster to this response. Reread my post. Where did I say micromanage? I said Tomlin absolutely can and should dictate certain aspects of 3rd and short. I mean, that’s coach/player 101.

Don’t make this out to be insulting. Situational football. You can’t see where there are instances in a game where a 1st down is of utmost importance and the head coach shouldn’t pull Haley and Ben aside and say “1st down, no bombs. ”

Really? Do I need to outline game specific scenarios?[/quote]

Then it sounds like it is you who has not been followibg along altogether well. The mention of insult was in regard to saying something like "I don't know it it's Tomlin's job."

Of course, the debate, such as it is, is about bombs on third and short only. People are arguing to play the percentage and don't throw bombs. To which my response was ONLY that Ben is the guy on the field that has to read the defense and decide what to do given the play call. Apparently you want Tomlin to decide on any given 3rd and short ("how important is the third and short in question") whether to mandate that Ben not throw a bomb despite what Ben does or does not read.

So if we're not going to have Tomlin or Haley micromanage Ben on the field on third and short, what are you proposing happen exactly since none of us are so stupid as to suppose Ben should NEVER take those shots.

Jobus response was better than yours.

But even if Haley magically starts sending in better route combos that also have run options on third and short, Ben still has to make the read and decide the throw. Now you don't want Tomlin to micromanage, so what are you claiming?[/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote][/quote]


I’m on my phone. Lengthy debate is difficult.

Easy question that will illustrate my position.

Can you think of situations in a game where it is best not to throw a bomb or some other low percentage “shot” on 3rd and short? If so, it is my opinion that that is absolutely the appropriate time for the HC to pull his QB and OC aside and say, “high percentage throw here, I want the 1st down.”

I can think of half a dozen times this season where that would be appropriate. It’s not micromanaging or hamstring anyone.

And yes, listening to Ben’s take on the whole 3rd and short thing, I think it’s warranted.


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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:29 am 
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I don't like it any more than you or Swiss.

But I don't know about mandating despite what QB reads on the field.

If the game absolutely on the line, ok.

So only take those shots when the game is well in hand?

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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:44 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
I don't like it any more than you or Swiss.

But I don't know about mandating despite what QB reads on the field.

If the game absolutely on the line, ok.

So only take those shots when the game is well in hand?


Generic scenario

Steelers are down 14 -3 first-quarter they’ve had two three and outs in a row. offense is out of sync third series. They have a third and 2 on their own 25.

I think this would be an appropriate time for the head coach to tell Ben no bombs the AB get a first down offense needs rhythm.

I don’t see that as micromanaging.


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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:58 am 
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Turn that low percentage throw into a high one. If BR sees a high percentage throw - meaning an open guy. No debate. Open by yards - then by all means throw long. But if he's NOT open or double teamed, take the first down. Situational football. But a one on one with a cheating safety is not a high percentage throw.

BR often throws to guys that are obviously not open, sometimes triple covered, and expects AB or such make a spectacular play. The guy has to be open by a few steps to warrant a throw, and receivers need to be ready. MB is obviously NOT ready. They need the element of surprise for those plays, and they don't have it. More often than not they throw short of the sticks or take the go route up the sideline. Nothing in the middle of the field, coming out of the same formations. Easier to defend.

I call it risk management. That's what I think you guys are debating. Some like how Tomlin or BR plays black jack, others not so much.

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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:59 am 
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randomsteelerfan wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
I don't like it any more than you or Swiss.

But I don't know about mandating despite what QB reads on the field.

If the game absolutely on the line, ok.

So only take those shots when the game is well in hand?


Generic scenario

Steelers are down 14 -3 first-quarter they’ve had two three and outs in a row. offense is out of sync third series. They have a third and 2 on their own 25.

I think this would be an appropriate time for the head coach to tell Ben no bombs the AB get a first down offense needs rhythm.

I don’t see that as micromanaging.


Fair enough, but it is taking the decision out of the hands of your hall of fame QB (I mean, we're talking Ben, not Blaine Gabbert). Suppose you demand the high percentage dump off. Suppose you get a hopeless mismatch in your favor on the outside. Who cares how. Now suppose the ball is snapped and your WR goes streaking free for an easy walk in TD, but you have your orders to dump off for a high percentage throw.

That is my concern. It's all situational football, right? And who is best able ultimate before the snap to weigh the situation.

I'm not saying Tomlin should NEVER weigh in.

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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:00 am 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Turn that low percentage throw into a high one. If BR sees a high percentage throw - meaning an open guy. No debate. Open by yards - then by all means throw long. But if he's NOT open or double teamed, take the first down. Situational football. But a one on one with a cheating safety is not a high percentage throw.

BR often throws to guys that are obviously not open, sometimes triple covered, and expects AB or such make a spectacular play. The guy has to be open by a few steps to warrant a throw, and receivers need to be ready. MB is obviously NOT ready. They need the element of surprise for those plays, and they don't have it. More often than not they throw short of the sticks or take the go route up the sideline. Nothing in the middle of the field, coming out of the same formations. Easier to defend.

I call it risk management. That's what I think you guys are debating. Some like how Tomlin or BR plays black jack, others not so much.


BINGO is his name-o.

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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:19 am 
Ok....but what the qb sees is what determines what is and what isnt a high percentage play....some short throws are horribly low percentage....some bombs are high percentage


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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:49 am 
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SteelerChef wrote:
Ok....but what the qb sees is what determines what is and what isnt a high percentage play....some short throws are horribly low percentage....some bombs are high percentage


True. So, what would you call Bens throw to AB in KC? That’s the kind of thing that makes me question Ben’s decision making, at times. Was that a high percentage 3rd down choice? He decided to go there immediately.

I haven’t watched it more than a couple times, it it didn’t look like AB was ever open. Ben just decided that was where he was going, regardless.


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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:44 pm 
There is obviously an idea that AB has to get a certain number of targets....i dont support that idea


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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:52 pm 
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I actually would prefer those shots being taken more on 2nd & short or 3rd & 5+. It's become a tendency enough that teams are going to give Ben a pre snap look & switch it at the snap, if they haven't already.

It can be said a deep ball INT is more or less a punt, but the problem is nobody punts on 3rd & short.

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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:46 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Turn that low percentage throw into a high one. If BR sees a high percentage throw - meaning an open guy. No debate. Open by yards - then by all means throw long.



That's not how it happens and never will - at the time the ball leaves the QB hands, you simply have confidence the guy is going to beat the DB and separate. "If he's even he's leavin'...." But by the time you see what you want to see, you've missed the opportunity.

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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:04 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
Turn that low percentage throw into a high one. If BR sees a high percentage throw - meaning an open guy. No debate. Open by yards - then by all means throw long.



That's not how it happens and never will - at the time the ball leaves the QB hands, you simply have confidence the guy is going to beat the DB and separate. "If he's even he's leavin'...." But by the time you see what you want to see, you've missed the opportunity.
Oh I understand that. MB has the speed. You look at film to see if he's consistently getting separation. He's not, by my eye test. He should be getting separation right off the LOS. If that happens, great. Make the throw. He's not high pointing and fighting for jump balls, so it's a low percentage throw if he's "even." Low confidence means low percentage reception.

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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:02 pm 
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randomsteelerfan wrote:
SteelerChef wrote:
Ok....but what the qb sees is what determines what is and what isnt a high percentage play....some short throws are horribly low percentage....some bombs are high percentage


True. So, what would you call Bens throw to AB in KC? That’s the kind of thing that makes me question Ben’s decision making, at times. Was that a high percentage 3rd down choice? He decided to go there immediately.

I haven’t watched it more than a couple times, it it didn’t look like AB was ever open. Ben just decided that was where he was going, regardless.

He put it directly into AB's hands, so you could argue he was open enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:14 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
randomsteelerfan wrote:

True. So, what would you call Bens throw to AB in KC? That’s the kind of thing that makes me question Ben’s decision making, at times. Was that a high percentage 3rd down choice? He decided to go there immediately.

I haven’t watched it more than a couple times, it it didn’t look like AB was ever open. Ben just decided that was where he was going, regardless.

He put it directly into AB's hands, so you could argue he was open enough.


Actually, he put it directly into the defenders hand first.


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 Post subject: Re: Boy that Tomlin .....lost control of dumb players huh ?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:55 pm 
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randomsteelerfan wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
randomsteelerfan wrote:

True. So, what would you call Bens throw to AB in KC? That’s the kind of thing that makes me question Ben’s decision making, at times. Was that a high percentage 3rd down choice? He decided to go there immediately.

I haven’t watched it more than a couple times, it it didn’t look like AB was ever open. Ben just decided that was where he was going, regardless.

He put it directly into AB's hands, so you could argue he was open enough.


Actually, he put it directly into the defenders hand first.

Maybe I'm thinking of a different one because, yeah, the defender's facemask one was not in AB's hands.

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