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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:57 pm 
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this is the kind of game you have to worry about


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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:09 pm 
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Great to see all the injured guys are making it back. SBI.


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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:56 am 
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Scunge wrote:
I think they need to be smarter with how they use Bryant. It isn't a matter of him losing his job to JuJu or lining up as the official #2 WR outside. Depending on how the defenses line up, on down and distance, matchups, you want to move Bryant and JuJu and never just line them up predictably.

I remember many big plays from 2015 where Markus Wheaton would line up outside and they moved Bryant around in the slot. No reason to have Brown and Bryant predictably line up, to have things set in stone, making it easier on the defense. Put Brown in the slot at times too. I have seen teams take their athletic TE and flex him out and have him line up at WR, we did that some with Green last season in his 6 game stretch. No reason why we can't do that with Vance McDonald and have Brown line up in the slot.

I just see Haley and the powers that be not using Brown to open things up for other plays/players. Use the coverage that he attracts and use it to scheme players open. The bunch formations that we used to employ are great to scheme players open, to get easy yards, yet we seem to have gone away from it.

But back to Bryant in the slot, no reason they should not be moving him around and trying to force the defense's hand. It is just too easy to defend that vertical deep threat if he is stuck on the outside and the CB gets help with both the sideline, the limited real estate, and safety help.

No reason why JuJu and Bryant can't both get 65-70% of the offensive snaps.

One thing I am pissed about today was hearing (reading) a quote from defensive line coach John Mitchell on Hargrave. He was lamenting how they would love to find him more playing time but can't justify taking Heyward or Tuitt off the field, etc.

That just makes me so angry. If your scheme is so fucked up that it is preventing great players from seeing the field, then the obvious answer is to change the scheme! We have an embarrassment of riches at defensive line right now, Heyward, Tuitt, Hargrave and Alualu and LT Walton and we play a defense where we ultimately end up playing a 2-4-5, primarily using just two of those defensive linemen. Hargrave is this incredible player who is strong as a pass rusher and against the run and he plays 46% of the time. That is nuts.

For me I get that they have to remove somebody from the field when Mike Hilton comes on, but why does it have to be Hargrave? Vince Williams has had a nice season thus far but he is playing 73% of the snaps, I get that he hasn't been exploited that much in coverage but he will be by the better offenses. I don't get what he gives you over Hargrave. To me I take Vince Williams off the field and leave Hargrave on the field. That interior pass rush is more important, that presence that Hargrave has in the middle, the double teams that he attracts can open things up for others. I fail to see how a 3-3-5 with Heyward, Hargrave and Tuitt is not more important than having Vince Williams on the field.

I don't really understand why they aren't using TJ Watt more in Vince Williams inside spot either. Want to get Harrison on the field? You move Watt inside next to Shazier and Harrison can line up in his old ROLB. Then you can do some interesting things with Watt inside. I remember Chad Brown back in the day, Watt reminds me of Brown in being very smart, technical and athletic, Brown played inside before moving outside. With Watt being inside you can blitz him from there, have him drop in coverage, an inside duo of Watt and Shazier in coverage is very enticing. Also you can have Watt move inside and line up on Harrison or Dupree and you could do some stunts and whatnot. Why be content with only having 2 of those 3 OLBs on the field when you can get them all on the field?

To me Vince Williams is preventing Hargrave and Harrison from seeing more time on the field and it is because the Steelers are being afraid to be bold and experiment with the players that they have. Williams seeing 73% of the snaps and Willie Gay seeing 30% of the snaps is not a good trend, those numbers have to go down, they are on the field way too much.


100% agreed.

Our coaching staff just seems so fucking lazy -- can't think of ways to utilize the assets we have - they are stuck in a rut, because they are too fucking lazy to innovate around the talent

Hargrave should be on the field at least 75% of the time -- same with Bryant/Juju


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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:08 am 
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Scunge,

Isn't possible that the coaches would like to use Bryant in a more diverse manner, but he is too limited in his route running?

He has supreme physical talent, but did the guy ever run anything other than go or slant even when he was playing well?

The coaches might be too stupid to use MB in other ways or MB might be too stupid to be used in more diverse ways.

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:38 am 
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He has run routes other than a go or slant.


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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:41 am 
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Would Hargrave playing 75-80% of the snaps be as effective as Hargrave playing only 50% of the time? Maybe our dumbass coaches know something that we don’t...just saying.

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:34 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Scunge,

Isn't possible that the coaches would like to use Bryant in a more diverse manner, but he is too limited in his route running?

He has supreme physical talent, but did the guy ever run anything other than go or slant even when he was playing well?

The coaches might be too stupid to use MB in other ways or MB might be too stupid to be used in more diverse ways.


I have no way of knowing for sure, but I agree with this assessment.

Not that he "can't" run a bigger route tree, but that he is wholly unimpressive when trying to "sell" it, so that a defender does not have to take seriously the possibility of him running a more deceptive route than a fly.

Or maybe it's the coaching...

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:58 pm 
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I tend to think the problem is with Haley. Half of Haley’s gameplay week in week out is, should we run bell off RG or should we pull decastro and run him off LG? Then he factors in AB touches. That takes us to 80% of the game plan. That’s why he’s out at oakmont by Wednesday at lunch.

It’s naturally a good bit MB part too. I think you could see him get visibly discouraged about either not being included or missing his opportunities.

But hey season is just half way. Like big snack used to say at camp every summer. I don’t need to practice. I play the games.

Second half of the season is for the gamers.


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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:02 pm 
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KC wrote:
Stosh-67 wrote:
As far as Bryant.

Yes, they have gone 6-2 with very little production from this guy.

But, he is the key in making this offense turn a squandering 13-6 halftime lead into a 20-6 or 24-6 lead.


Roethlisberger is a bigger key, IMHO.

He's still leaving waaaaay too many plays on the field, no matter who his WR's are.

Love Ben. Top 5 favorite Steelers of all time. He isn't right this year.

KC, love you man, but this is the take you get when only watching highlights of other teams and deeply analyzing every play of the home team. Brees. Wilson. Alex Smith. Prescott. Just some of the QBs I saw miss wide open guys this week, especially on deep balls.

Yes, the offense as a whole has left plays on the field and yes Ben has missed a couple-- but I don't think Ben is in the death throes of his career or anything... and it's no small thing that he is leading this somewhat dysfunctional team to the top of the conference in record.

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:10 pm 
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I still believe Tuitt is the best player on this defense. His health going forward will make a defense that has been very good even better. Going to be nice to see him back out there Sunday.


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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:29 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
I don't think Ben is in the death throes of his career or anything... and it's no small thing that he is leading this somewhat dysfunctional team to the top of the conference in record.


You can still win with Ben. Obviously!

His mobility looks gone. And he no longer looks to go through all the reads, at least not as much. I think the lack of mobility is causing him to want to get the ball out faster. So we're not getting as many of those patented WTF Ben plays.

Loss of mobility means we are looking at post-peak Ben for sure.

But the team is 6-2, so, you can win with the guy.

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:50 pm 
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Ice wrote:
He has run routes other than a go or slant.

He supposedly looked great running a full route tree on the scout team. He also did more of that vs Den in playoffs and in Ben 6 TD Indy game.

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:54 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
I don't think Ben is in the death throes of his career or anything... and it's no small thing that he is leading this somewhat dysfunctional team to the top of the conference in record.


You can still win with Ben. Obviously!

His mobility looks gone. And he no longer looks to go through all the reads, at least not as much. I think the lack of mobility is causing him to want to get the ball out faster. So we're not getting as many of those patented WTF Ben plays.

Loss of mobility means we are looking at post-peak Ben for sure.

But the team is 6-2, so, you can win with the guy.


The league-wide state of the QB position is so bad, that Ben could be in a wheelchair and a have broken right arm and still be a top 10 QB.

But yeah, I'm definitely in the boat of thinking Ben isn't the QB he was 3-4 years ago. Agree with Lit's points and will add a general lack of accuracy onto it, as well. The guy is missing throws he wouldn't have missed back then, and isn't hitting guys in stride as much when he does complete them. He was never Tom Brady in the ball placement category, but he used to be a lot better than what he's shown over the past two seasons.


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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:10 pm 
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Quote:
The league-wide state of the QB position is so bad, that Ben could be in a wheelchair and a have broken right arm and still be a top 10 QB.


I’m not sure he’s a top 10 QB now without that wheelchair & broken right arm.

He is 9th in yards so he makes the cut there.

18th in TDs
37th in rating
19th yards per attempt

He is 5th in INTs so solid top 10 there.

We are 6-2 so hard to be too critical but if we are being real here we could be 6-2 with a lot of mediocre QBs handing the ball to Leveon Bell a league leading number of times.

With a handful of QBs that are currently playing better than Ben we could realistically be 8-0.

He’s been a part of the problem unfortunately right along with Haley, Tomlin, and the receivers not names Brown or JuJu.

This coming from a long-time Ben homer.


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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:14 pm 
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smithessmokin wrote:
I expect to flat out annihilate Indianapolis this coming weekend. A victory of 45-13 sounds good to me.


Slop and slather. Steelers win 15-13.

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:20 pm 
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Obviously wrote:
smithessmokin wrote:
I expect to flat out annihilate Indianapolis this coming weekend. A victory of 45-13 sounds good to me.


Slop and slather. Steelers win 15-13.


Start tipping your hat

Brisset > Glennon

Veteran RB in Gore

TY Hilton

Desperate team playing at home

Violent men on blades of grass

Tums

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:27 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Quote:
The league-wide state of the QB position is so bad, that Ben could be in a wheelchair and a have broken right arm and still be a top 10 QB.


I’m not sure he’s a top 10 QB now without that wheelchair & broken right arm.

He is 9th in yards so he makes the cut there.

18th in TDs
37th in rating
19th yards per attempt

He is 5th in INTs so solid top 10 there.

We are 6-2 so hard to be too critical but if we are being real here we could be 6-2 with a lot of mediocre QBs handing the ball to Leveon Bell a league leading number of times.

With a handful of QBs that are currently playing better than Ben we could realistically be 8-0.

He’s been a part of the problem unfortunately right along with Haley, Tomlin, and the receivers not names Brown or JuJu.

This coming from a long-time Ben homer.


Yeah, I didn't look up the stats before posting that, but I share these general feelings, as well.

I keep seeing people blame the system, receivers, etc...and I don't doubt they share some of the blame. But there's just so many throws that should be easy that he's not being precise with right now. Wide open crossing patterns, simple dump passes, etc.

When I'm watching the games, I find myself constantly yelling at Haley for not attacking the deep/intermediate middle of the field more, but on the rare instances that Ben does throw passes, I also find myself cringing at what the result is going to be.


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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Obviously wrote:
smithessmokin wrote:
I expect to flat out annihilate Indianapolis this coming weekend. A victory of 45-13 sounds good to me.


Slop and slather. Steelers win 15-13.

The Steelers have kicked the shit out of Indy in each of the last 3 seasons. Here's hoping that trend continues.

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:40 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Quote:
The league-wide state of the QB position is so bad, that Ben could be in a wheelchair and a have broken right arm and still be a top 10 QB.


I’m not sure he’s a top 10 QB now without that wheelchair & broken right arm.

He is 9th in yards so he makes the cut there.

18th in TDs
37th in rating
19th yards per attempt

He is 5th in INTs so solid top 10 there.

We are 6-2 so hard to be too critical but if we are being real here we could be 6-2 with a lot of mediocre QBs handing the ball to Leveon Bell a league leading number of times.

With a handful of QBs that are currently playing better than Ben we could realistically be 8-0.

He’s been a part of the problem unfortunately right along with Haley, Tomlin, and the receivers not names Brown or JuJu.

This coming from a long-time Ben homer.


Ben and the offense got off to a slow start. Sloppy execution and poor situational play calling didn't help. Lots of moving parts with little continuity carry over from last season. Ben pressed in a few games and didn't play well. He has gotten better over the past few games and is hitting more downfield plays. His YPA has risen too. I think his best football is in front of him.


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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:42 pm 
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His best football this season or his best football career?

If this season I would agree. I’m expecting him to play better too.

The forced throws into triple coverage need to stop though. No reason we can’t scheme someone open with what we have to work with.


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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:49 pm 
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955876 wrote:
His best football this season or his best football career?

If this season I would agree. I’m expecting him to play better too.

The forced throws into triple coverage need to stop though. No reason we can’t scheme someone open with what we have to work with.


Yes, his best football this season lies ahead, in my opinion.

There are some good signs of this happening. JuJu becoming more integrated into the offense. Bryant remaining on the field, off of social media, and hopefully focused. The run blocking with Vance McDonald. The healthy return of Gilly. All this will help Ben play his best ball down the stretch.


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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:16 pm 
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Pabst wrote:
Obviously wrote:
smithessmokin wrote:
I expect to flat out annihilate Indianapolis this coming weekend. A victory of 45-13 sounds good to me.


Slop and slather. Steelers win 15-13.

The Steelers have kicked the shit out of Indy in each of the last 3 seasons. Here's hoping that trend continues.


I'd like to enjoy this game as opposed to having to "endure" it.

(Credit to SWISS for "endure")

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:50 pm 
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article in PPG had Tuitt saying he was running 19mph last week. Wow - that's MOVING for 6'7" 313.

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:19 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Quote:
The league-wide state of the QB position is so bad, that Ben could be in a wheelchair and a have broken right arm and still be a top 10 QB.


I’m not sure he’s a top 10 QB now without that wheelchair & broken right arm.

He is 9th in yards so he makes the cut there.

18th in TDs
37th in rating
19th yards per attempt

He is 5th in INTs so solid top 10 there.

We are 6-2 so hard to be too critical but if we are being real here we could be 6-2 with a lot of mediocre QBs handing the ball to Leveon Bell a league leading number of times.

With a handful of QBs that are currently playing better than Ben we could realistically be 8-0.

He’s been a part of the problem unfortunately right along with Haley, Tomlin, and the receivers not names Brown or JuJu.

This coming from a long-time Ben homer.


Just as many turnovers as TDs, that's the definition of mediocre. He's not a top ten player at his position this year. Probably the first time you can say that in god knows how long. Disregarding injuries, Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Wentz, Wilson, Alex Smith, and shoot, Deshaun Watson have really stood out this year as guys playing great at the position. I'd include Stafford, McCown, and Rivers over him this year. Goff and Carr are somewhat questionable, but have legitimate arguments. Hell, Goff's team is actually averaging over 30 a game. I mean, you can't objectively point to anything he's stood out as very good at. And areas he's stood out in the past, like his play in the fourth quarter, on third down, etc.. have been down. Really the only thing he has going for him is the 6-2 record, but then again no one on here is trumpeting Blake Bortles, Cam Newton, and Case Keenum for leading their teams to winning records either and playing great. When you've got a D that is only giving up 16 points a game, 4.8 yards a play, and only letting opponents convert on third down 32% of the time, you're going to win a bunch of games.

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 Post subject: Re: Tuit, Gilbert and Bryant
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:39 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
I don't think Ben is in the death throes of his career or anything... and it's no small thing that he is leading this somewhat dysfunctional team to the top of the conference in record.


You can still win with Ben. Obviously!

His mobility looks gone. And he no longer looks to go through all the reads, at least not as much. I think the lack of mobility is causing him to want to get the ball out faster. So we're not getting as many of those patented WTF Ben plays.

Loss of mobility means we are looking at post-peak Ben for sure.

But the team is 6-2, so, you can win with the guy.


Just looked this up, but I think it kind of quietly speaks for how Ben's legs and mobility are shot:

Ben Roethlisberger career rushing stats, total rushing attempts and total yards:

2004: 56 for 144
2005: 31 for 69
2006: 32 for 98
2007: 35 for 204 (Ben in his prime magician days)
2008: 34 for 101
2009: 40 for 82
2010: 32 for 176
2011: 31 for 70
2012: 26 for 92
2013: 27 for 99
2014: 33 for 27 (now the salty vet pocket passer)
2015: 15 for 29 (left knee injury against the Rams)
2016: 16 for 14 (ow, I just tore my meniscus trying to run)
2017: 16 for -11

I mean, obviously a lot of that is game situation with kneels and sample size, but I do think you can see the obvious trend. If memory serves me right, he's had one rush for a first down this year I think? Maybe two? I think part of it is the series of lower leg injuries he's had over the past few years and the wear and tear over time, but I do think part of it is that he doesn't take care of himself as well as he should. FC spoke about it on the podcast, but the guy came into this season not in great shape (well, he's never in tremendous shape, but even more so this year). It's something I was harping on last year, but it was even more prominent this season. He's one of the least mobile QBs in the league, maybe the least. I hate making a Brady comparison, the dude is the best QB of all time, but Brady looks faster and more fluid than he did 10 years ago. Seriously. He's probably getting shot up with HGH and god knows what else, but part of it his maniacal focus on his body and prolonging his career. Ben doesn't have that, at least to that level. We don't need him breaking contain and throwing on the run once or twice every drive, but not having that threat, especially in the red zone now compared with how he used to play, makes us easier to defend.

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