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 Post subject: Re: Who Defends Gronkowski Best?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:19 pm 
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TB wrote:
Haden.

His size and his long arms would be a little more favorable, but if Brady is dealing and Gronk is healthy he’s a matchup nightmare for anyone.


I was thinking in terms of what team defends him best. I'm optimistic with Haden, Sutton, Hilton and Burns. As bad a day as Sean Davis had, I think he'll rebound along with Keith Butler making some adjustments. I'm slightly more concerned about run defense.

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 Post subject: Re: Who Defends Gronkowski Best?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:23 pm 
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Mitchell needs to take a head shot at him.take the 15 and get Gronk in the concussion protocol.


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 Post subject: Re: Who Defends Gronkowski Best?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:15 pm 
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Steel Ubaldo wrote:
Mitchell needs to take a head shot at him.take the 15 and get Gronk in the concussion protocol.


I'm looking for the Buffalo Bills to exact some revenge on Christmas Eve, and said that fucker home with a cast on his league.


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 Post subject: Re: Who Defends Gronkowski Best?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:36 pm 
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dude was in beast mode. what a load...best defense is the IR... maybe bills rough him up..maybe they can bait him into another defenseless hit and he suspended longer..im grasping at straws and hoping.


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 Post subject: Re: Who Defends Gronkowski Best
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:45 am 
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Stillcajun wrote:
So sadly I rewatched the game especially the second half focusing on Gronk and Davis. The one thing that was apparent was that Brady was throwing to Gronk's shoulder opposite of Davis's position. Gronk pushed off a lot to create separation but Davis stayed w/ him but mostly trailing. Mitchell should've been able to read this but he never seemed to be either cognizant or in position. He continually played super deep and if he would've played normal safety depth he would've been able to make a play on some of those passes.

If Butler actually had Mitchell or an LB bracketing Gronk, we would be talking a different story. Butler failed to adjust and it bit him in the rear. I still say a faster, bigger guy like Allen would've been a better man matchup but that meant losing either Sutton or Gay and they weren't willing to do that.


That's exactly how i saw it live.
Thanks for rewatching.
Could not believe he was so much further back...on those deep center of field passes.
Insane. Was not even in camera/tv screen.
Brady is not taking 35-40 yard shots over the top of mitchell.
He certainly needed to break up one or two of those

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 Post subject: Re: Who Defends Gronkowski Best?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:22 am 
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The one thing that can't be lost is that the defense we played against NE is the RIGHT way to do it.

I have to think that if Haden and Shazier were both healthy and had played that the game would have been drastically different and that Brady and Gronk would have had a much more difficult time of it.

Shazier's pass coverage is on another level from other linebackers. He had what this year, 14 passes defensed and 3 INTs? Joe Haden, sorry to break it to the rest of you, is better than Artie Burns. Haden is our best CB, better in man, better in zone, better as a blitzer, better in all facets than Burns.

So, to have both of those players out, your best coverage linebacker, and your best coverage cornerback, was pretty damaging and made it hard to stop Gronk.

And yet, can anybody remember a game where Brady was slightly off, wasn't as efficient? He wasn't the world beater, the GOAT this time around was he? No, mixing it up, playing more man to man did give them pause, did make them uncomfortable, did make them less effective. Brady was getting hit, was getting pressured, was getting sacked.

What we did against NE is what I want us to expand upon AGAINST every other NFL team. There is no reason why we can't have a flexible scheme that plays way more man. Look, even the best man to man teams may only play it 50% of the time but us, we are usually the last or 2nd to the last in terms of playing man the least, maybe 10-15% of the time.

You play man and it takes away those quick pass plays where the QB gets the ball out in 2 seconds. QB has to hold the ball longer giving your pass rushers more time to apply pressure, to get hurried passes and sacks.

My hope is that this game is not quickly forgotten and that is it a watershed moment and the beginning of an evolution of this defense.

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 Post subject: Re: Who Defends Gronkowski Best?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:05 am 
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Scunge wrote:
The one thing that can't be lost is that the defense we played against NE is the RIGHT way to do it.

I have to think that if Haden and Shazier were both healthy and had played that the game would have been drastically different and that Brady and Gronk would have had a much more difficult time of it.

Shazier's pass coverage is on another level from other linebackers. He had what this year, 14 passes defensed and 3 INTs? Joe Haden, sorry to break it to the rest of you, is better than Artie Burns. Haden is our best CB, better in man, better in zone, better as a blitzer, better in all facets than Burns.

So, to have both of those players out, your best coverage linebacker, and your best coverage cornerback, was pretty damaging and made it hard to stop Gronk.

And yet, can anybody remember a game where Brady was slightly off, wasn't as efficient? He wasn't the world beater, the GOAT this time around was he? No, mixing it up, playing more man to man did give them pause, did make them uncomfortable, did make them less effective. Brady was getting hit, was getting pressured, was getting sacked.

What we did against NE is what I want us to expand upon AGAINST every other NFL team. There is no reason why we can't have a flexible scheme that plays way more man. Look, even the best man to man teams may only play it 50% of the time but us, we are usually the last or 2nd to the last in terms of playing man the least, maybe 10-15% of the time.

You play man and it takes away those quick pass plays where the QB gets the ball out in 2 seconds. QB has to hold the ball longer giving your pass rushers more time to apply pressure, to get hurried passes and sacks.

My hope is that this game is not quickly forgotten and that is it a watershed moment and the beginning of an evolution of this defense.




Agreed Scunge, and just to add to your post, playing man to man, sends a message of confidence
to every last guy on defense, it gives them energy, more ownership over the D, I mean not 1 kid who grows up wanting to play D, dreams of playing a zone fucking defense, they like to be challenged and play man to man, have a chance to make a break on a ball, get an INT, same for D line they grow up wanting to rush the passer, not titty fighting and only setting the edge. I loved watching this team team get after the patriots and for the most part the results were fantastic. and no doubt haden and shazier would take that defense to a whole other level, and yes like any thing else, mixing it up and keeping the offense guessing and uncomfortable is a key as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Who Defends Gronkowski Best?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:25 pm 
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If Haden is healthy and there is a next time with the Pats, I'm putting him on Gronk, plus a double or serious chuck at the line from whichever OLB is lined up on his side. Sutton and Burns and Hilton weren't perfect, but they were good enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Who Defends Gronkowski Best
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:43 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
The Steelers doubled no one in the game. They should have bracketed Gronk
This, at least in critical downs. I noticed that on first viewing. Key situations on third down.

How many third and short 10 yard gains did he have in that game?

I saw single coverage on a few third downs and predicted the throw to gronk. And guess what. Every fucking time.

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 Post subject: Re: Who Defends Gronkowski Best?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:43 pm 
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Scunge wrote:
The one thing that can't be lost is that the defense we played against NE is the RIGHT way to do it.

I have to think that if Haden and Shazier were both healthy and had played that the game would have been drastically different and that Brady and Gronk would have had a much more difficult time of it.

Shazier's pass coverage is on another level from other linebackers. He had what this year, 14 passes defensed and 3 INTs? Joe Haden, sorry to break it to the rest of you, is better than Artie Burns. Haden is our best CB, better in man, better in zone, better as a blitzer, better in all facets than Burns.

So, to have both of those players out, your best coverage linebacker, and your best coverage cornerback, was pretty damaging and made it hard to stop Gronk.

And yet, can anybody remember a game where Brady was slightly off, wasn't as efficient? He wasn't the world beater, the GOAT this time around was he? No, mixing it up, playing more man to man did give them pause, did make them uncomfortable, did make them less effective. Brady was getting hit, was getting pressured, was getting sacked.

What we did against NE is what I want us to expand upon AGAINST every other NFL team. There is no reason why we can't have a flexible scheme that plays way more man. Look, even the best man to man teams may only play it 50% of the time but us, we are usually the last or 2nd to the last in terms of playing man the least, maybe 10-15% of the time.

You play man and it takes away those quick pass plays where the QB gets the ball out in 2 seconds. QB has to hold the ball longer giving your pass rushers more time to apply pressure, to get hurried passes and sacks.

My hope is that this game is not quickly forgotten and that is it a watershed moment and the beginning of an evolution of this defense.



THIS !


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 Post subject: Re: Who Defends Gronkowski Best?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:21 pm 
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Yeah, who is it, PFF, reporting that we played man to man 65% against NE and that number was only 12% in the previous 13 games of this season.

That is just way too much of a discrepancy, but you can't argue with the results though. Mike Hilton was incredible, had two pass breakups with one being denying Gronk in the end zone. They were leaving the big uglies in the game more, Hargarve played a lot as they went with 3 man defensive lines, they even had more 4 man defensive lines.

I have been arguing for more 4-3 looks, for having more defensive linemen on the field and for more man to man, that is the way for this defense to evolve.

Again, just a shame that Shazier and Haden were out, I think NE would have been held to less than 20 points. What I want to see for next season is a flushing out of the last remaining LeBeau vets and embracing the youth that we have and finally switching the defense to something else.

Let go of Willie Gay and James Harrison. Get rid of Mike Mitchell and Art Moats, and then add some new players through the draft and free agency. Keep Haden, so his contract increases next year, so what? If you move on from Mitchell, bam, there is the money that can be shifted to keep Haden.

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 Post subject: Re: Who Defends Gronkowski Best?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:26 pm 
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Who defends gronkowski the best?

His lawyer/ agent, and his girlfriend.

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 Post subject: Re: Who Defends Gronkowski Best?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:07 am 
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Bear traps.

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 Post subject: Re: Who Defends Gronkowski Best?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:09 am 
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Scunge wrote:
Yeah, who is it, PFF, reporting that we played man to man 65% against NE and that number was only 12% in the previous 13 games of this season.

That is just way too much of a discrepancy, but you can't argue with the results though. Mike Hilton was incredible, had two pass breakups with one being denying Gronk in the end zone. They were leaving the big uglies in the game more, Hargarve played a lot as they went with 3 man defensive lines, they even had more 4 man defensive lines.

I have been arguing for more 4-3 looks, for having more defensive linemen on the field and for more man to man, that is the way for this defense to evolve.

Again, just a shame that Shazier and Haden were out, I think NE would have been held to less than 20 points. What I want to see for next season is a flushing out of the last remaining LeBeau vets and embracing the youth that we have and finally switching the defense to something else.

Let go of Willie Gay and James Harrison. Get rid of Mike Mitchell and Art Moats, and then add some new players through the draft and free agency. Keep Haden, so his contract increases next year, so what? If you move on from Mitchell, bam, there is the money that can be shifted to keep Haden.

Mitchell has to go. That 2nd half debacle is on him.

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 Post subject: Re: Who Defends Gronkowski Best?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:38 am 
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86n96 wrote:
Scunge wrote:
Yeah, who is it, PFF, reporting that we played man to man 65% against NE and that number was only 12% in the previous 13 games of this season.

That is just way too much of a discrepancy, but you can't argue with the results though. Mike Hilton was incredible, had two pass breakups with one being denying Gronk in the end zone. They were leaving the big uglies in the game more, Hargarve played a lot as they went with 3 man defensive lines, they even had more 4 man defensive lines.

I have been arguing for more 4-3 looks, for having more defensive linemen on the field and for more man to man, that is the way for this defense to evolve.

Again, just a shame that Shazier and Haden were out, I think NE would have been held to less than 20 points. What I want to see for next season is a flushing out of the last remaining LeBeau vets and embracing the youth that we have and finally switching the defense to something else.

Let go of Willie Gay and James Harrison. Get rid of Mike Mitchell and Art Moats, and then add some new players through the draft and free agency. Keep Haden, so his contract increases next year, so what? If you move on from Mitchell, bam, there is the money that can be shifted to keep Haden.

Mitchell has to go. That 2nd half debacle is on him.


I still can’t get over that play on the final sequence where the Pats had two receivers on either side of the formation, and he cheated AWAY from Gronkowski’s side.

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 Post subject: Re: Who Defends Gronkowski Best?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:10 am 
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I think Haden would have as much trouble as Davis with Gronk. Haden is not a big guy. Gronk would bully him and create separation. I get why Davis was put on Gronk. If you looked at the roster Sunday he made the most sense. Young, mobile safety with good size and strength. He needed help though. I would not be pissed if they put Davis on him again. I think the kid will learn a thing or two from this past week and give him a little goddamn safety help!!!! Haden can lockdown whatever piece of shit WR is on the other side...Hogan, Amendola, Ochocinco, whoever....

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 Post subject: Re: Who Defends Gronkowski Best?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:24 am 
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R S wrote:
I think Haden would have as much trouble as Davis with Gronk. Haden is not a big guy. Gronk would bully him and create separation. I get why Davis was put on Gronk. If you looked at the roster Sunday he made the most sense. Young, mobile safety with good size and strength. He needed help though. I would not be pissed if they put Davis on him again. I think the kid will learn a thing or two from this past week and give him a little goddamn safety help!!!! Haden can lockdown whatever piece of shit WR is on the other side...Hogan, Amendola, Ochocinco, whoever....


In 2011, the single high safety was Ryan Clark.

Now it’s Mike Mitchell.

That’s a HUGE difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Who Defends Gronkowski Best?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:50 am 
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R S wrote:
I think Haden would have as much trouble as Davis with Gronk. Haden is not a big guy. Gronk would bully him and create separation. I get why Davis was put on Gronk. If you looked at the roster Sunday he made the most sense. Young, mobile safety with good size and strength. He needed help though. I would not be pissed if they put Davis on him again. I think the kid will learn a thing or two from this past week and give him a little goddamn safety help!!!! Haden can lockdown whatever piece of shit WR is on the other side...Hogan, Amendola, Ochocinco, whoever....


I agree RS.
He gets another shot.
But this time....He gets banged pretty hard at the line by Dupree if he lines up on that side.
And gets banged pretty hard by Watt if he starts out on his side.

And then Davis deals with him after his tussles at the line.

And if they move Gronk further out to get away from the banging....
I have confidence in Dupree and Watt, with their athletic ability to still be able to use their range and coverage skills to be the first guy on him....
with S/DB picking him up.

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 Post subject: Re: Who Defends Gronkowski Best?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:59 am 
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One thing the pats have always done well is move the ball around.

This is why I feel good about next time. Let’s say Sutton gets more reps and improves and we get Haden. Steelers now have 4 CB that can press man or zone. They’ve never been that far with that group before.

I’d be thinking of some combination of like a 5-6 vs pats


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 Post subject: Re: Who Defends Gronkowski Best?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:21 am 
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Jeemie wrote:
R S wrote:
I think Haden would have as much trouble as Davis with Gronk. Haden is not a big guy. Gronk would bully him and create separation. I get why Davis was put on Gronk. If you looked at the roster Sunday he made the most sense. Young, mobile safety with good size and strength. He needed help though. I would not be pissed if they put Davis on him again. I think the kid will learn a thing or two from this past week and give him a little goddamn safety help!!!! Haden can lockdown whatever piece of shit WR is on the other side...Hogan, Amendola, Ochocinco, whoever....


In 2011, the single high safety was Ryan Clark.

Now it’s Mike Mitchell.

That’s a HUGE difference.

I said this in another thread that I'd rather have Mike Wagner at 68 back there than Mitchell. He has ZERO awareness.


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