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 Post subject: Re: Coach Priatko's take on Steelers-Pats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:19 pm 
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BethlehemSteel wrote:
JackSplat58 wrote:
That picture show three fingers are not under the ball.

The human hand has five fingers.

Even the Simpsons' cartoon hand has four.

Again, this is not conclusive proof.


Exactly. 43 always pushing a narrative. The point of this exercise is they didn't have conclusive proof to overturn the call on the field.

We should be 13-2 right now


I never said they had conclusive proof on the replay.

I just said they ended up getting the call right.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Priatko's take on Steelers-Pats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:07 pm 
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43

Even the pic you posted is inconclusive because you can't see the ring and pinky fingers. You are guessing they weren't underneath the ball. The only way for it to be conclusive would be to have a shot from the side angle a few milliseconds before the pic I posted. Then you could see for sure if his fingers were under the ball. Remember, conclusive means irrefutable (ie. 100% sure). That is the standard to overturn.

The very fact that we are using additional tools from photographers to try to decipher this more than a week later shows just how inconclusive it was. Riveron had to essentially GUESS and ASSUME the ball hit the ground because it moved.

I have a big problem with that, but right now there is nothing we can do. The Steelers are livid and playing with a chip on their shoulder. That's a good thing for all of us.


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 Post subject: Re: Coach Priatko's take on Steelers-Pats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:17 pm 
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It doesn't matter if his ring and pinky fingers were underneath the ball because there is no way he has control of the ball in that situation.

And I'm not arguing that there is conclusive evidence on the replay. I just can't get too upset because he did drop it.

Ben threw him a perfect pass to score a TD with and he blew it.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Priatko's take on Steelers-Pats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:21 pm 
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fortythree wrote:
It doesn't matter if his ring and pinky fingers were underneath the ball because there is no way he has control of the ball in that situation.

And I'm not arguing that there is conclusive evidence on the replay. I just can't get too upset because he did drop it.

Ben threw him a perfect pass to score a TD with and he blew it.


He definitely had possession outside the end zone when he caught the ball and became a runner though, even his knee was down before the goal line as he brought it into his chest BEFORE he reached for a touchdown as a RUNNER.

The NFL has this all wrong by their own definition of a completion.

Fuckface Riveron even says the word “COMPLETION” in his dumb attempt to clear things up


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 Post subject: Re: Coach Priatko's take on Steelers-Pats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:29 pm 
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ChippedHamSandwich wrote:
fortythree wrote:
It doesn't matter if his ring and pinky fingers were underneath the ball because there is no way he has control of the ball in that situation.

And I'm not arguing that there is conclusive evidence on the replay. I just can't get too upset because he did drop it.

Ben threw him a perfect pass to score a TD with and he blew it.


He definitely had possession outside the end zone when he caught the ball and became a runner though, even his knee was down before the goal line as he brought it into his chest BEFORE he reached for a touchdown as a RUNNER.

The NFL has this all wrong by their own definition of a completion.

Fuckface Riveron even says the word “COMPLETION” in his dumb attempt to clear things up



He did not become a runner. He was falling down and has to maintain possession the entire way. He doesnt.

That's an incompletion anywhere on the field.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Priatko's take on Steelers-Pats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:33 pm 
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ChippedHamSandwich wrote:
fortythree wrote:
It doesn't matter if his ring and pinky fingers were underneath the ball because there is no way he has control of the ball in that situation.

And I'm not arguing that there is conclusive evidence on the replay. I just can't get too upset because he did drop it.

Ben threw him a perfect pass to score a TD with and he blew it.


He definitely had possession outside the end zone when he caught the ball and became a runner though, even his knee was down before the goal line as he brought it into his chest BEFORE he reached for a touchdown as a RUNNER.

The NFL has this all wrong by their own definition of a completion.

Fuckface Riveron even says the word “COMPLETION” in his dumb attempt to clear things up


Unfortunately, the NFL has never defined making a move with the football (stretching out, etc) as something that establishes a receiver as a runner.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Priatko's take on Steelers-Pats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:36 pm 
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fortythree wrote:
It doesn't matter if his ring and pinky fingers were underneath the ball because there is no way he has control of the ball in that situation.

And I'm not arguing that there is conclusive evidence on the replay. I just can't get too upset because he did drop it.

Ben threw him a perfect pass to score a TD with and he blew it.


Sure it does. If his finger (even his pinky) is underneath the ball he maintains possession.

You are stating that it's your opinion that he lost possession of the ball. It may even be mine.

But it is NOT CONCLUSIVE. It's conjecture. And that is NOT the letter of the law.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Priatko's take on Steelers-Pats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:33 pm 
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JackSplat58 wrote:
fortythree wrote:
It doesn't matter if his ring and pinky fingers were underneath the ball because there is no way he has control of the ball in that situation.

And I'm not arguing that there is conclusive evidence on the replay. I just can't get too upset because he did drop it.

Ben threw him a perfect pass to score a TD with and he blew it.


Sure it does. If his finger (even his pinky) is underneath the ball he maintains possession.


Lol that's not how it works.

Quote:
You are stating that it's your opinion that he lost possession of the ball. It may even be mine.

But it is NOT CONCLUSIVE. It's conjecture. And that is NOT the letter of the law.


Doesn't get any more conclusive than the pic I posted of the ball laying on the fucking ground, my dude.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Priatko's take on Steelers-Pats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:38 pm 
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fortythree wrote:
JackSplat58 wrote:
fortythree wrote:
It doesn't matter if his ring and pinky fingers were underneath the ball because there is no way he has control of the ball in that situation.

And I'm not arguing that there is conclusive evidence on the replay. I just can't get too upset because he did drop it.

Ben threw him a perfect pass to score a TD with and he blew it.


Sure it does. If his finger (even his pinky) is underneath the ball he maintains possession.


Lol that's not how it works.

Sure is.

Quote:
You are stating that it's your opinion that he lost possession of the ball. It may even be mine.

But it is NOT CONCLUSIVE. It's conjecture. And that is NOT the letter of the law.


Doesn't get any more conclusive than the pic I posted of the ball laying on the fucking ground, my dude.


If he has a finger under the ball, it's not lying on the ground.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Priatko's take on Steelers-Pats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:45 pm 
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JackSplat58 wrote:

If he has a finger under the ball, it's not lying on the ground.


Sure it is. But he also has to have control. And he doesnt. Which is obvious to anyone looking at the picture I posted who isn't looking for excuses.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Priatko's take on Steelers-Pats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:53 pm 
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That may be your opinion. And it may well be a valid opinion. But the rules state that the ball can touch the ground as long as the ball is still in the receiver's control. There is no specification as to exactly how many fingers must be under the ball to maintain said control.

Again, the burden of proof is INDISPUTABLE evidence, which in this case still does not exist. Not opinion even if it is a consensus. INDISPUTABLE.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Priatko's take on Steelers-Pats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:03 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:

Unfortunately, the NFL has never defined making a move with the football (stretching out, etc) as something that establishes a receiver as a runner.


But it did,
Quote:
A player has the ball long enough to become a runner when, after his second foot is on the ground, he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact of an opponent, tucking the ball away, turning up field, or taking additional steps


If extending the ball is not turning upfield, then the rules are not written in English - and do note that a move with the football (ie tucking it away) is mentioned. The NFL has a rule already written to handle the James catch, they just choose not to use it. The player only needs to accomplish one of the above, James did tuck the ball away, and turned upfield to stretch it to the goaline. It's far easier for the NFL to solve these matters by applying the above rule and utilizing the "going to the ground' for instances where a player makes a catch while diving or falling and does not satisfy the runner provision above - as was originally intended.

Remember, the rule above says "second foot", but one knee does equal two feet according to the first part of the rule (not quoted here).

To be honest - for me there is no reason to argue the fingers or did he control through the ground - the proper ruling should have been that James became a runner as he satisfied all the items on the list to do so. The NFL doesn't need to rewrite anything - they just need to read their own rule and apply it... of course that might hurt the Patriots in such situations which is why I doubt they will do so.


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 Post subject: Re: Coach Priatko's take on Steelers-Pats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:17 pm 
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JackSplat58 wrote:
That may be your opinion. And it may well be a valid opinion. But the rules state that the ball can touch the ground as long as the ball is still in the receiver's control. There is no specification as to exactly how many fingers must be under the ball to maintain said control.

Again, the burden of proof is INDISPUTABLE evidence, which in this case still does not exist. Not opinion even if it is a consensus. INDISPUTABLE.


The picture combined with watching the replay and seeing the ball around after hitting the ground is indisputable proof that he dropped the fucking ball.

Just because you're gonna go all Climate Change denier and act like having your two weak fingers trapped under a ball that is laying on the ground is equal to control doesn't mean it's actually disputable.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Priatko's take on Steelers-Pats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:18 pm 
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ToddHaleysNineIron wrote:
Jeemie wrote:

Unfortunately, the NFL has never defined making a move with the football (stretching out, etc) as something that establishes a receiver as a runner.


But it did,
Quote:
A player has the ball long enough to become a runner when, after his second foot is on the ground, he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact of an opponent, tucking the ball away, turning up field, or taking additional steps


If extending the ball is not turning upfield, then the rules are not written in English - and do note that a move with the football (ie tucking it away) is mentioned. The NFL has a rule already written to handle the James catch, they just choose not to use it. The player only needs to accomplish one of the above, James did tuck the ball away, and turned upfield to stretch it to the goaline. It's far easier for the NFL to solve these matters by applying the above rule and utilizing the "going to the ground' for instances where a player makes a catch while diving or falling and does not satisfy the runner provision above - as was originally intended.

Remember, the rule above says "second foot", but one knee does equal two feet according to the first part of the rule (not quoted here).

To be honest - for me there is no reason to argue the fingers or did he control through the ground - the proper ruling should have been that James became a runner as he satisfied all the items on the list to do so. The NFL doesn't need to rewrite anything - they just need to read their own rule and apply it... of course that might hurt the Patriots in such situations which is why I doubt they will do so.


Doesn't apply because he's falling to the ground. If he took two steps and remained upright you might have an argument.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Priatko's take on Steelers-Pats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:31 pm 
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fortythree wrote:
JackSplat58 wrote:
That may be your opinion. And it may well be a valid opinion. But the rules state that the ball can touch the ground as long as the ball is still in the receiver's control. There is no specification as to exactly how many fingers must be under the ball to maintain said control.

Again, the burden of proof is INDISPUTABLE evidence, which in this case still does not exist. Not opinion even if it is a consensus. INDISPUTABLE.


The picture combined with watching the replay and seeing the ball around after hitting the ground is indisputable proof that he dropped the fucking ball.

Just because you're gonna go all Climate Change denier and act like having your two weak fingers trapped under a ball that is laying on the ground is equal to control doesn't mean it's actually disputable.


I can control a football with my pinky and fourth finger perfectly fine. I can't speak for Jesse James. And neither can you.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Priatko's take on Steelers-Pats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:45 pm 
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JackSplat58 wrote:
fortythree wrote:
JackSplat58 wrote:
That may be your opinion. And it may well be a valid opinion. But the rules state that the ball can touch the ground as long as the ball is still in the receiver's control. There is no specification as to exactly how many fingers must be under the ball to maintain said control.

Again, the burden of proof is INDISPUTABLE evidence, which in this case still does not exist. Not opinion even if it is a consensus. INDISPUTABLE.


The picture combined with watching the replay and seeing the ball around after hitting the ground is indisputable proof that he dropped the fucking ball.

Just because you're gonna go all Climate Change denier and act like having your two weak fingers trapped under a ball that is laying on the ground is equal to control doesn't mean it's actually disputable.


I can control a football with my pinky and fourth finger perfectly fine. I can't speak for Jesse James. And neither can you.


Lol you're in denial. Hilariously sad.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Priatko's take on Steelers-Pats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:25 pm 
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Very convincing. Your debate team experience is clear here. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Priatko's take on Steelers-Pats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:38 pm 
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JackSplat58 wrote:
Very convincing. Your debate team experience is clear here. :roll:


It's impossible to debate someone who refuses to see reality.

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 Post subject: Re: Coach Priatko's take on Steelers-Pats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:25 pm 
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fortythree wrote:
ToddHaleysNineIron wrote:
Jeemie wrote:

Unfortunately, the NFL has never defined making a move with the football (stretching out, etc) as something that establishes a receiver as a runner.


But it did,
Quote:
A player has the ball long enough to become a runner when, after his second foot is on the ground, he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact of an opponent, tucking the ball away, turning up field, or taking additional steps


If extending the ball is not turning upfield, then the rules are not written in English - and do note that a move with the football (ie tucking it away) is mentioned. The NFL has a rule already written to handle the James catch, they just choose not to use it. The player only needs to accomplish one of the above, James did tuck the ball away, and turned upfield to stretch it to the goaline. It's far easier for the NFL to solve these matters by applying the above rule and utilizing the "going to the ground' for instances where a player makes a catch while diving or falling and does not satisfy the runner provision above - as was originally intended.

Remember, the rule above says "second foot", but one knee does equal two feet according to the first part of the rule (not quoted here).

To be honest - for me there is no reason to argue the fingers or did he control through the ground - the proper ruling should have been that James became a runner as he satisfied all the items on the list to do so. The NFL doesn't need to rewrite anything - they just need to read their own rule and apply it... of course that might hurt the Patriots in such situations which is why I doubt they will do so.


Doesn't apply because he's falling to the ground. If he took two steps and remained upright you might have an argument.


I don't need two steps - I just need 1 knee, part 2 of article 3.
Quote:
touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and


Again - it only doesn't apply if the NFL decides to forgo the English language and ignore one part of the rule for the benefit of the other. Now James could go to the ground and not establish himself as a runner by failing to tuck the ball or turn upfield - at which point we could invoke the going to the ground rule.

I mean catching the football isn't based on hidden data and faulty computer models....


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 Post subject: Re: Coach Priatko's take on Steelers-Pats
PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:34 pm 
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ToddHaleysNineIron wrote:
If extending the ball is not turning upfield, then the rules are not written in English - and do note that a move with the football (ie tucking it away) is mentioned. The NFL has a rule already written to handle the James catch, they just choose not to use it. The player only needs to accomplish one of the above, James did tuck the ball away, and turned upfield to stretch it to the goaline. It's far easier for the NFL to solve these matters by applying the above rule and utilizing the "going to the ground' for instances where a player makes a catch while diving or falling and does not satisfy the runner provision above - as was originally intended.

Remember, the rule above says "second foot", but one knee does equal two feet according to the first part of the rule (not quoted here).

To be honest - for me there is no reason to argue the fingers or did he control through the ground - the proper ruling should have been that James became a runner as he satisfied all the items on the list to do so. The NFL doesn't need to rewrite anything - they just need to read their own rule and apply it... of course that might hurt the Patriots in such situations which is why I doubt they will do so.


I don't disagree with you re: making the move with the ball, but the NFL has never translated their rule that way. Ask Santonio Holmes or Dez Bryant.

The laws of physics also tell us that even though James' knee was down, he wasn't finished going to the ground...even had he done nothing else, he was going to continue falling...had he lost the ball when completing that fall, the same ruling would have been made.

And whether or not we feel the stretch out should count as a move (I happen to believe it does...a player that can stretch the ball out has proved he has control of it), the NFL doesn't.

Sucks- but it's been that way since going to the ground has been instituted. It's why I knew they'd overturn the TD as soon as I saw the first replay.

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