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 Post subject: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:22 am 
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With ILB as thin as it is now, can we atart the conversation on just drafting and signing 2-3 genuine, pure edge pass rushers, 270lb type guys?

Tuitt is the strong side end backed up by a FA/rookie
Heyward the three tech backed up by walton and a FA/rookie
Hargrave the nose backed up by Alualu
New guy is the edge backed up by a Chickillo

Sam is Watt backed up by Moats
Mike is Vince Wiliams backed up by Matekavich
Will is Dupree backed up by Fort

I know they like to be able to still deploy odd/bear fronts, and they still could with thrse alignments, but I think getting a pure edge rusher completes the transformation of this defense and lwts those athletic OLBs drop even more where they do their best work.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:38 am 
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I know this has been a popular discussion over the years and I agree to a point. 43's have a little better success than the 34's do, IMO. Proven again and again. I think until they fix the secondary it won't make much of a difference to change the defensive philosophy. Safety is a must as is a hardnosed corner with ball skills. Perhaps another Hilton would suffice. Wanted badly for Wilcox to be that FA diamond in the rough but that didn't pan out. Haven't seen enough of Wilcox in the defense to make any educated opinion's. May not even return next season. Burns has been a bit of a disappointment to me. He is an emotional hothead that is very susceptible to mistakes and can't form tackle with any consistency. Not fulfilling his draft selection status IMO. Before those folks come in here and rip on me I say look at the stats first. Where are the game changing splash plays? Hilton has shown more in less time and didn't come into the NFL with the same fanfare as Burns. Besides, it's just an opinion. Dupree is a real bummer. Can't really say anymore. Guy has done nothing of substance all year. Not a bust just a huge disappointment especially where he was drafted. Anyway, I look to limp through the rest of this season and look to improve my secondary first and foremost in the off season. Either through the draft (likely) or FA. Then I look at OLB's because Dupree isn't getting it done, Moats is done and Chickillo is JAG. No one behind them. Then there's the glaring issue with ILB. No one outside of VWill who at best is an above average player. Teamed up with Shazier he was acceptable. Now, not so much. Shazier may never play again. If I'm the FO I'm looking at ILB in this draft as well. Couple key injuries and JAGs at certain positions and the defense looks pedestrian and even pathetic at times. Heavy defensive draft If I'm the Steelers.


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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:51 am 
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MeanJustinBarlow wrote:
With ILB as thin as it is now, can we atart the conversation on just drafting and signing 2-3 genuine, pure edge pass rushers, 270lb type guys?

Tuitt is the strong side end backed up by a FA/rookie
Heyward the three tech backed up by walton and a FA/rookie
Hargrave the nose backed up by Alualu
New guy is the edge backed up by a Chickillo

Sam is Watt backed up by Moats
Mike is Vince Wiliams backed up by Matekavich
Will is Dupree backed up by Fort

I know they like to be able to still deploy odd/bear fronts, and they still could with thrse alignments, but I think getting a pure edge rusher completes the transformation of this defense and lwts those athletic OLBs drop even more where they do their best work.

Thoughts?

Pure edge rusher with Cam, Tuit, Hargrave...... Aluala and Walton rotating in and out.
A relentless front 4 going after the QB while dropping 7 is ideal.
Sucks that Dupree has not turned out to be that guy......as he should have been that 6'-4 - 270 demon on the edge.

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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:00 am 
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Dupree is 2nd on the team and in the top 35 in the NFL in tackles at or behind the LOS.

His pure sack numbers leave a lot to be desired but he's used in coverage a lot. I don't think he's as bad as people here do.

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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:13 am 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
I know this has been a popular discussion over the years and I agree to a point. 43's have a little better success than the 34's do, IMO. Proven again and again. I think until they fix the secondary it won't make much of a difference to change the defensive philosophy. Safety is a must as is a hardnosed corner with ball skills. Perhaps another Hilton would suffice. Wanted badly for Wilcox to be that FA diamond in the rough but that didn't pan out. Haven't seen enough of Wilcox in the defense to make any educated opinion's. May not even return next season. Burns has been a bit of a disappointment to me. He is an emotional hothead that is very susceptible to mistakes and can't form tackle with any consistency. Not fulfilling his draft selection status IMO. Before those folks come in here and rip on me I say look at the stats first. Where are the game changing splash plays? Hilton has shown more in less time and didn't come into the NFL with the same fanfare as Burns. Besides, it's just an opinion. Dupree is a real bummer. Can't really say anymore. Guy has done nothing of substance all year. Not a bust just a huge disappointment especially where he was drafted. Anyway, I look to limp through the rest of this season and look to improve my secondary first and foremost in the off season. Either through the draft (likely) or FA. Then I look at OLB's because Dupree isn't getting it done, Moats is done and Chickillo is JAG. No one behind them. Then there's the glaring issue with ILB. No one outside of VWill who at best is an above average player. Teamed up with Shazier he was acceptable. Now, not so much. Shazier may never play again. If I'm the FO I'm looking at ILB in this draft as well. Couple key injuries and JAGs at certain positions and the defense looks pedestrian and even pathetic at times. Heavy defensive draft If I'm the Steelers.


The loss to the Pats gave a glimpse of what the Steelers lack.

If we were all told, on Sunday morning/afternoon before the game even started,
That halfway thru the fourth quarter the Pats had a total of 16 points
After 58 minutes of football, The PS would have held the Pats to 19 points.
We would have all said, WOW. The defense finally figured it out.

And they did.
They were playing better defense against the Pats in last 10-12 meetings.
They were hitting Brady with Defensive linemen.
They were getting to Brady without really blitzing.
There was one or 2 Hilton Blitzes.
But do not recall Vince Williams and his up the gut blitzes.
Or rushing more than 4 on many plays?
Would like to see the numbers of how many times they rushed 5 or more....vs. just 4.

The let down on the last 2 Pats drives came down to about 4 or 5 plays.

3rd and 3 at the Steelers 44 and the ticky tacky PI call on Burns covering Gronk that took the ball to the Steelers 21.
Burns did not grab his arms, did not grab his jersey, did not trip up his feet.
Bryants one arm was held for about 10 yards of his running one handed TD catch. No flag.
6 penalties vs. 2.
Now if they let that go, Pats most likely go for it at the Steelers 44, on 4th and 3.

Then the last three drives the lack of attention to covering the biggest guy on the field, the QBs go to guy.......... in the biggest drive of the season.
One, not banging him with a bigger guy at the line, followed up with a DB to cover him after he gets banged.
Two, the lack of instinct, territory coverage, closing skills and ball skills of Mike Mitchell.
My son and I were angrily alarmed at how deep he was playing pre-snap.
At how far back he back pedaled on snap.
And how far behind Gronk he was while making catches 20-25 yards downfield. He was still 5-7 yards behind Gronk when he actually made those catches.
Which means he was even further back when he finally realized to stop back pedaling and stared to close.

The 2018 offseason / Draft / FA needs to be heavy on defense again.
A Safety with ball skills and smarts who can cover ground may be the biggest need.
An ILB with speed and coverage skills.
A CB / S / ILB hybrid with coverage skills.
A pass rushing OLB ............whose best traits are actually his pass rushing abilities.

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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:22 am 
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I think it was Inside the NFL that had Ray Lewis shaking his head on how the PS failed to give proper attention to Gronk on that last drive.

He said the Ravens would line up a big body / DE on Gronk at the line and bang him good before releasing to rush the QB.

That there should have been the plan.
If he is left, Dupree bangs him with enough speed to then make a bee line to the QB.........maybe the RT loses Dupree in the scuffle
If he lines up right, its Watt he bangs with him with enough speed, motor and instincts to go after the QB after release.

I think Sean Davis would have a hell of a much better assignment after Gronk was continually harassed at the line.
Less head of steam for Gronk.
Maybe pushed off route and timing with Brady, etc.
And most likely not getting behind Davis as much.

Its not rocket science.
But they could have at least tried

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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:27 am 
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Stosh-67 wrote:
I think it was Inside the NFL that had Ray Lewis shaking his head on how the PS failed to give proper attention to Gronk on that last drive.

He said the Ravens would line up a big body / DE on Gronk at the line and bang him good before releasing to rush the QB.

That there should have been the plan.
If he is left, Dupree bangs him with enough speed to then make a bee line to the QB.........maybe the RT loses Dupree in the scuffle
If he lines up right, its Watt he bangs with him with enough speed, motor and instincts to go after the QB after release.

I think Sean Davis would have a hell of a much better assignment after Gronk was continually harassed at the line.
Less head of steam for Gronk.
Maybe pushed off route and timing with Brady, etc.
And most likely not getting behind Davis as much.

Its not rocket science.
But they could have at least tried


B2B said on one of the plays, we did have Watt, Davis, and Mitchell on him but Brady dropped a perfect pass into his basket.

I haven't gone back and watched it again...I don't remember that at all. Maybe on the first play when Davis just barely missed the INT (and who didn't know that dropped INT wouldn't haunt us, BTW?) but the three big passes he caught I am fairly sure he was singled against Davis and Mitchell was nowhere nearby with any safety help...in fact on one cheated AWAY from Gronk's side.

Tomlin said he was supposed to be bracketed but it didn't happen...but that once again points to communications issues between coaches and players.

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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:29 am 
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Stosh-67 wrote:
Steelafan77 wrote:
I know this has been a popular discussion over the years and I agree to a point. 43's have a little better success than the 34's do, IMO. Proven again and again. I think until they fix the secondary it won't make much of a difference to change the defensive philosophy. Safety is a must as is a hardnosed corner with ball skills. Perhaps another Hilton would suffice. Wanted badly for Wilcox to be that FA diamond in the rough but that didn't pan out. Haven't seen enough of Wilcox in the defense to make any educated opinion's. May not even return next season. Burns has been a bit of a disappointment to me. He is an emotional hothead that is very susceptible to mistakes and can't form tackle with any consistency. Not fulfilling his draft selection status IMO. Before those folks come in here and rip on me I say look at the stats first. Where are the game changing splash plays? Hilton has shown more in less time and didn't come into the NFL with the same fanfare as Burns. Besides, it's just an opinion. Dupree is a real bummer. Can't really say anymore. Guy has done nothing of substance all year. Not a bust just a huge disappointment especially where he was drafted. Anyway, I look to limp through the rest of this season and look to improve my secondary first and foremost in the off season. Either through the draft (likely) or FA. Then I look at OLB's because Dupree isn't getting it done, Moats is done and Chickillo is JAG. No one behind them. Then there's the glaring issue with ILB. No one outside of VWill who at best is an above average player. Teamed up with Shazier he was acceptable. Now, not so much. Shazier may never play again. If I'm the FO I'm looking at ILB in this draft as well. Couple key injuries and JAGs at certain positions and the defense looks pedestrian and even pathetic at times. Heavy defensive draft If I'm the Steelers.


The loss to the Pats gave a glimpse of what the Steelers lack.

If we were all told, on Sunday morning/afternoon before the game even started,
That halfway thru the fourth quarter the Pats had a total of 16 points
After 58 minutes of football, The PS would have held the Pats to 19 points.
We would have all said, WOW. The defense finally figured it out.

And they did.
They were playing better defense against the Pats in last 10-12 meetings.
They were hitting Brady with Defensive linemen.
They were getting to Brady without really blitzing.
There was one or 2 Hilton Blitzes.
But do not recall Vince Williams and his up the gut blitzes.
Or rushing more than 4 on many plays?
Would like to see the numbers of how many times they rushed 5 or more....vs. just 4.

The let down on the last 2 Pats drives came down to about 4 or 5 plays.

3rd and 3 at the Steelers 44 and the ticky tacky PI call on Burns covering Gronk that took the ball to the Steelers 21.
Burns did not grab his arms, did not grab his jersey, did not trip up his feet.
Bryants one arm was held for about 10 yards of his running one handed TD catch. No flag.
6 penalties vs. 2.
Now if they let that go, Pats most likely go for it at the Steelers 44, on 4th and 3.

Then the last three drives the lack of attention to covering the biggest guy on the field, the QBs go to guy.......... in the biggest drive of the season.
One, not banging him with a bigger guy at the line, followed up with a DB to cover him after he gets banged.
Two, the lack of instinct, territory coverage, closing skills and ball skills of Mike Mitchell.
My son and I were angrily alarmed at how deep he was playing pre-snap.
At how far back he back pedaled on snap.
And how far behind Gronk he was while making catches 20-25 yards downfield. He was still 5-7 yards behind Gronk when he actually made those catches.
Which means he was even further back when he finally realized to stop back pedaling and stared to close.

The 2018 offseason / Draft / FA needs to be heavy on defense again.
A Safety with ball skills and smarts who can cover ground may be the biggest need.
An ILB with speed and coverage skills.
A CB / S / ILB hybrid with coverage skills.
A pass rushing OLB ............whose best traits are actually his pass rushing abilities.


I go back and forth on the DPI on Burns, but that flag pissed me off because the official didn't even make an attempt to throw it until AFTER he saw the result of the play (incomplete pass). No double-clutching or anything like that...was clearly a "wait for the play to end...oh...incomplete? FLAG!!!"

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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:50 am 
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Aw man I forgot about that Davis INT drop. Would of also iced the game.

You know everyone is wondering about gronk but Steelers have a truly shitty history of covering TE. Alge crumpler anyone? Yeah some are impact players like gronk but many times they’ve had simply no answer for the TE down the seam play.

Any rate I’m not as down on Sean Davis as many are. He’s like burns at least at this stage. They can’t be asked to do too much


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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:04 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
Stosh-67 wrote:
Steelafan77 wrote:
I know this has been a popular discussion over the years and I agree to a point. 43's have a little better success than the 34's do, IMO. Proven again and again. I think until they fix the secondary it won't make much of a difference to change the defensive philosophy. Safety is a must as is a hardnosed corner with ball skills. Perhaps another Hilton would suffice. Wanted badly for Wilcox to be that FA diamond in the rough but that didn't pan out. Haven't seen enough of Wilcox in the defense to make any educated opinion's. May not even return next season. Burns has been a bit of a disappointment to me. He is an emotional hothead that is very susceptible to mistakes and can't form tackle with any consistency. Not fulfilling his draft selection status IMO. Before those folks come in here and rip on me I say look at the stats first. Where are the game changing splash plays? Hilton has shown more in less time and didn't come into the NFL with the same fanfare as Burns. Besides, it's just an opinion. Dupree is a real bummer. Can't really say anymore. Guy has done nothing of substance all year. Not a bust just a huge disappointment especially where he was drafted. Anyway, I look to limp through the rest of this season and look to improve my secondary first and foremost in the off season. Either through the draft (likely) or FA. Then I look at OLB's because Dupree isn't getting it done, Moats is done and Chickillo is JAG. No one behind them. Then there's the glaring issue with ILB. No one outside of VWill who at best is an above average player. Teamed up with Shazier he was acceptable. Now, not so much. Shazier may never play again. If I'm the FO I'm looking at ILB in this draft as well. Couple key injuries and JAGs at certain positions and the defense looks pedestrian and even pathetic at times. Heavy defensive draft If I'm the Steelers.


The loss to the Pats gave a glimpse of what the Steelers lack.

If we were all told, on Sunday morning/afternoon before the game even started,
That halfway thru the fourth quarter the Pats had a total of 16 points
After 58 minutes of football, The PS would have held the Pats to 19 points.
We would have all said, WOW. The defense finally figured it out.

And they did.
They were playing better defense against the Pats in last 10-12 meetings.
They were hitting Brady with Defensive linemen.
They were getting to Brady without really blitzing.
There was one or 2 Hilton Blitzes.
But do not recall Vince Williams and his up the gut blitzes.
Or rushing more than 4 on many plays?
Would like to see the numbers of how many times they rushed 5 or more....vs. just 4.

The let down on the last 2 Pats drives came down to about 4 or 5 plays.

3rd and 3 at the Steelers 44 and the ticky tacky PI call on Burns covering Gronk that took the ball to the Steelers 21.
Burns did not grab his arms, did not grab his jersey, did not trip up his feet.
Bryants one arm was held for about 10 yards of his running one handed TD catch. No flag.
6 penalties vs. 2.
Now if they let that go, Pats most likely go for it at the Steelers 44, on 4th and 3.

Then the last three drives the lack of attention to covering the biggest guy on the field, the QBs go to guy.......... in the biggest drive of the season.
One, not banging him with a bigger guy at the line, followed up with a DB to cover him after he gets banged.
Two, the lack of instinct, territory coverage, closing skills and ball skills of Mike Mitchell.
My son and I were angrily alarmed at how deep he was playing pre-snap.
At how far back he back pedaled on snap.
And how far behind Gronk he was while making catches 20-25 yards downfield. He was still 5-7 yards behind Gronk when he actually made those catches.
Which means he was even further back when he finally realized to stop back pedaling and stared to close.

The 2018 offseason / Draft / FA needs to be heavy on defense again.
A Safety with ball skills and smarts who can cover ground may be the biggest need.
An ILB with speed and coverage skills.
A CB / S / ILB hybrid with coverage skills.
A pass rushing OLB ............whose best traits are actually his pass rushing abilities.


[b]I go back and forth on the DPI on Burns, but that flag pissed me off because the official didn't even make an attempt to throw it until AFTER he saw the result of the play (incomplete pass). No double-clutching or anything like that...was clearly a "wait for the play to end...oh...incomplete? FLAG!!![/b]"



That's because that was a complete bullshit call.


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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:28 pm 
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I hate this discussion. Go look at the Eagles depth chart for instance. Good 4-3 defenses have two full waves of front 4 players. At best the Steelers have one and that counts Bud Dupree as your top edge rusher. They are far away, especially given Shazier's status.


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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:11 pm 
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SP wrote:
I hate this discussion. Go look at the Eagles depth chart for instance. Good 4-3 defenses have two full waves of front 4 players. At best the Steelers have one and that counts Bud Dupree as your top edge rusher. They are far away, especially given Shazier's status.

Exactamundo. That's either three years or a post-Ben $$$, Jacksonville-like signing spree on defense away from where we are now.

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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:15 pm 
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If you want to develop a better defense- 3-4 or 4-3...I don't care which- fire Joey Porter.

On the podcast, FC berates our drafts.

I'm the opposite...I berate our coaching up. Dupree, Watt, even Stenosis Jones- all had raw talent.

Porter couldn't develop them for shit, and he's a loudmouth asshole to boot.

When Kevin Greene came free, Porter should have been dropped in a heartbeat. Worse...Greene SAID he wanted to come to Pittsburgh.

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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:19 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
If you want to develop a better defense- 3-4 or 4-3...I don't care which- fire Joey Porter.

On the podcast, FC berates our drafts.

I'm the opposite...I berate our coaching up. Dupree, Watt, even Stenosis Jones- all had raw talent.

Porter couldn't develop them for shit, and he's a loudmouth asshole to boot.

When Kevin Greene came free, Porter should have been dropped in a heartbeat. Worse...Greene SAID he wanted to come to Pittsburgh.


I think Greene understands technique MUCH better than Porter. He got a lot more out of his given talent than did Porter. Too bad.


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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Baltostiller wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
If you want to develop a better defense- 3-4 or 4-3...I don't care which- fire Joey Porter.

On the podcast, FC berates our drafts.

I'm the opposite...I berate our coaching up. Dupree, Watt, even Stenosis Jones- all had raw talent.

Porter couldn't develop them for shit, and he's a loudmouth asshole to boot.

When Kevin Greene came free, Porter should have been dropped in a heartbeat. Worse...Greene SAID he wanted to come to Pittsburgh.


I think Greene understands technique MUCH better than Porter. He got a lot more out of his given talent than did Porter. Too bad.


I did jump the gun on Watt- it's early- he may simply have hit the rookie wall.

But Porter's track record is unimpressive.

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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:33 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
Baltostiller wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
If you want to develop a better defense- 3-4 or 4-3...I don't care which- fire Joey Porter.

On the podcast, FC berates our drafts.

I'm the opposite...I berate our coaching up. Dupree, Watt, even Stenosis Jones- all had raw talent.

Porter couldn't develop them for shit, and he's a loudmouth asshole to boot.

When Kevin Greene came free, Porter should have been dropped in a heartbeat. Worse...Greene SAID he wanted to come to Pittsburgh.


I think Greene understands technique MUCH better than Porter. He got a lot more out of his given talent than did Porter. Too bad.


I did jump the gun on Watt- it's early- he may simply have hit the rookie wall.

But Porter's track record is unimpressive.


Let's hope that Watt relies more on tips/techinques from his brother than Porter :D


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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:37 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
If you want to develop a better defense- 3-4 or 4-3...I don't care which- fire Joey Porter.

On the podcast, FC berates our drafts.

I'm the opposite...I berate our coaching up. Dupree, Watt, even Stenosis Jones- all had raw talent.

Porter couldn't develop them for shit, and he's a loudmouth asshole to boot.

When Kevin Greene came free, Porter should have been dropped in a heartbeat. Worse...Greene SAID he wanted to come to Pittsburgh.




you might be on to something with the development of our OLBs under Peezys tutelage, however the fact that Jervis didn't catch on anywhere else leads me to believe the issue is in the scouting of OLBs and what it is we're looking for, id be all for showing porter the door AND getting some new eyes on the drafts OLBs prospects just to cover all our bases, because I think we'd all agree something is amiss with our OLBs. I rarely disagree with FC but I still think Watt turns into a stud.


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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:04 pm 
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Quote:
Porter's track record is unimpressive.


But he’s buddies with Tomlin so going nowhere. Likely has a job as long as T does....


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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:41 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Quote:
Porter's track record is unimpressive.


But he’s buddies with Tomlin so going nowhere. Likely has a job as long as T does....

Sad...but true.

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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:30 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
If you want to develop a better defense- 3-4 or 4-3...I don't care which- fire Joey Porter.

On the podcast, FC berates our drafts.

I'm the opposite...I berate our coaching up. Dupree, Watt, even Stenosis Jones- all had raw talent.

Porter couldn't develop them for shit, and he's a loudmouth asshole to boot.

When Kevin Greene came free, Porter should have been dropped in a heartbeat. Worse...Greene SAID he wanted to come to Pittsburgh.


You don't know shit about what Porter does or doesn't do as a position coach........Vince Lombardi couldn't have turned Jervis into an all-pro Raw talent???? soft, slow, and weak........hows that for talent.......Get rid of Porter and get a better defense????? for christs sake..... :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:59 pm 
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Stosh-67 wrote:
I think it was Inside the NFL that had Ray Lewis shaking his head on how the PS failed to give proper attention to Gronk on that last drive.

He said the Ravens would line up a big body / DE on Gronk at the line and bang him good before releasing to rush the QB.

That there should have been the plan.
If he is left, Dupree bangs him with enough speed to then make a bee line to the QB.........maybe the RT loses Dupree in the scuffle
If he lines up right, its Watt he bangs with him with enough speed, motor and instincts to go after the QB after release.

I think Sean Davis would have a hell of a much better assignment after Gronk was continually harassed at the line.
Less head of steam for Gronk.
Maybe pushed off route and timing with Brady, etc.
And most likely not getting behind Davis as much.

Its not rocket science.
But they could have at least tried

Agree with this - very passive off the line. Same w Burns - no bump


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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:01 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
SP wrote:
I hate this discussion. Go look at the Eagles depth chart for instance. Good 4-3 defenses have two full waves of front 4 players. At best the Steelers have one and that counts Bud Dupree as your top edge rusher. They are far away, especially given Shazier's status.

Exactamundo. That's either three years or a post-Ben $$$, Jacksonville-like signing spree on defense away from where we are now.

Wher we are now - SUCKS


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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:24 pm 
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I disagree that we are so far away from a switch to a 4-3. Looking at Philly is a great example. Philly, like many 4-3 teams are taking basically 3-4 OLBs and using them as defensive ends. Curry, Graham and even Barnett, those guys are built like 3-4 OLBs, 6'3, 260 pounds, Graham is only 6'1. These are not overly athletic freaks, that are 6'5" with super long arms or special in terms of speed.

Philly does not waste time dropping them into coverage, or pretending that they are anything other than what they are, pass rushers. So, they have 4 DEs and the heaviest among them is Chris Long, who is 275. But they rotate them, they keep them fresh.

Brandon Graham, 70%
Vinny Curry, 54%
Chris Long, 46%
Derek Barnett, 45%

So, for people to say, hey we don't have enough defensive linemen to make it work, I think you are just discounting that these other teams are using our 3-4 OLBs AS defensive ends.

Yeah, we have Cam, Hargrave and Tuitt, but don't discount Alualu and especially LT Walton. Walton has made himself a lot of money down the road by how he has played this season, I have been very impressed with what he has done and how much he has grown. 5 defensive linemen right there and Cam has 10 sacks this season in 14 games, you are telling me he wouldn't be even more productive in a 4-3 where he rotated and was more fresh in the game?

You are telling me that Hargrave inside, lined up in that Warren Sapp role wouldn't just kill it?

Dupree and Chickillo can be part of the defensive line and be DEs. Dupree if you distill everything down for him, keep it simple, don't drop him in coverage just tell him to rush the passer and he rotates and plays 60% of the snaps, he wouldn't be much better for it? Wouldn't be a better pass rusher? Chickillo has shown to have some talent pass rushing.

That is 7 players right there for the D-line, missing just two players. Those can easily be added in the draft, and you don't have to spend a 1st or 2nd to find them.

Jacksonville took a player in the 2016 draft that I liked quite a bit and the Steelers showed interest too, Yannick Ngakoue. He has 19 sacks and 10 forced fumbles in 29 starts for the Jaguars. He is a DE for them but he is only 6'2" 250 pounds. Again, not to belabor the point, but 4-3 DEs found by teams taking our 3-4 OLB prospects and using them the right way. They are not wasting time dropping them into coverage or trying to overload their minds with bullshit. See QB, destroy QB, and if it happens to be a run, then try and tackle the RB on the way to the QB. Simple. And don't make him play every snaps, they have him taking 75% of the snaps and don't play him much on special teams.

What did Jax spend to get Ngakoue? Was it a first rounder? 2nd Rounder? Nope. He went 69th overall, early 3rd round pick. These guys are available EVERY draft in the late 2nd/early 3rd round portion of the draft, no need to continue to spend 1st round picks. Be it Nagakoue, or Seattle's Frank Clark, or Arizona's Markus Golden, or hell, Cincy's Carl Lawson, they spend a 4th round pick on him and don't pretend to use him as a 3-4 OLB, he is a pass rusher, a DE, 7.5 sacks on the year.

I see it very doable to spend two picks in the upcoming draft on 250-260 pound pass rushers and only spend say a 2nd and 4th on them, that is all it would take. You would then be up to 9 defensive linemen and would be able to rotate and do anything that you wanted.

I have hope that Shazier will make a full recovery, if that happens, to have him and Watt as two of your starting LBers is a great start for a 4-3. Finding coverage LBers in every draft is relatively easy, finding smaller, quicker LBers that can play has always been easier. Only the Steelers waste their time and first round picks chasing this holy grail of trying to find that perfect Linebacker that can have 16 sacks in a season, play the run like a NT and also be a shutdown CB in coverage. It is lunacy.

We are not 2-3 years away from switching, they can do it in one year if they tried. With Harrison and Gay gone next season, what excuses can you offer anymore? The tired old, well, the veterans are so attached to LeBeau's system doesn't hold any water anymore. They will soon be all gone. You have a young, talented team and it really should be looked at as a blank slate, take advantage of it, make a change.

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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:06 am 
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So, for people to say, hey we don't have enough defensive linemen to make it work, I think you are just discounting that these other teams are using our 3-4 OLBs AS defensive ends.

i think you are discounting how bad our OLBs would be as 4-3 DEs, and how much of a loss it would be to lose them in coverage. Both Watt and Dupree probably better as OLBs in a 4-3 than as DEs.

We don't really have the guys built for that gig.

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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:42 am 
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When I look at the roster the way it sits now, I can see the potential. Hargrave, Alualu with McCullers and Walton backing them up inside. Tuitt and Heyward ends with Dupree and Chickillo backing them up outside. Another potential end is Farrington Huguenin, could come into play listed at 6'4 268. Inside you have VWill, Watt and a draft pick (if Shazier doesn't come back) with Fort, Matakevich + draft prick, or Keith Kelsey. Also remember Keion Adams is IR'd and Galambos is PS injured. There are a couple more LB'ers to consider. Then you have the really seriously suspect secondary. Glaring need at safety (FS). Hope Wilcox could be an answer there. Possibly back up SS is Wilcox future. In need of corners that will tackle while defending the pass. You can't coach desire/want to. Gotta have corners willing to tackle RB's/TE's every time. That was always the Steeler standard far as I remember. Hilton is my favorite corner as this roster sits right now. Not sure Burns will ever play any better as far as tackling goes. Haden may have a couple season's left. Corner is always in play IMO.

Side note: Looking at the current roster the Steelers have demoted RB Toussaint to PS and promoted WR Thomas to the 53. Does Thomas have any, Ant return ability? That will certainly help the cause as the ST's returns have been ultimately disappointing.


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