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 Post subject: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:22 am 
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With ILB as thin as it is now, can we atart the conversation on just drafting and signing 2-3 genuine, pure edge pass rushers, 270lb type guys?

Tuitt is the strong side end backed up by a FA/rookie
Heyward the three tech backed up by walton and a FA/rookie
Hargrave the nose backed up by Alualu
New guy is the edge backed up by a Chickillo

Sam is Watt backed up by Moats
Mike is Vince Wiliams backed up by Matekavich
Will is Dupree backed up by Fort

I know they like to be able to still deploy odd/bear fronts, and they still could with thrse alignments, but I think getting a pure edge rusher completes the transformation of this defense and lwts those athletic OLBs drop even more where they do their best work.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:38 am 
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I know this has been a popular discussion over the years and I agree to a point. 43's have a little better success than the 34's do, IMO. Proven again and again. I think until they fix the secondary it won't make much of a difference to change the defensive philosophy. Safety is a must as is a hardnosed corner with ball skills. Perhaps another Hilton would suffice. Wanted badly for Wilcox to be that FA diamond in the rough but that didn't pan out. Haven't seen enough of Wilcox in the defense to make any educated opinion's. May not even return next season. Burns has been a bit of a disappointment to me. He is an emotional hothead that is very susceptible to mistakes and can't form tackle with any consistency. Not fulfilling his draft selection status IMO. Before those folks come in here and rip on me I say look at the stats first. Where are the game changing splash plays? Hilton has shown more in less time and didn't come into the NFL with the same fanfare as Burns. Besides, it's just an opinion. Dupree is a real bummer. Can't really say anymore. Guy has done nothing of substance all year. Not a bust just a huge disappointment especially where he was drafted. Anyway, I look to limp through the rest of this season and look to improve my secondary first and foremost in the off season. Either through the draft (likely) or FA. Then I look at OLB's because Dupree isn't getting it done, Moats is done and Chickillo is JAG. No one behind them. Then there's the glaring issue with ILB. No one outside of VWill who at best is an above average player. Teamed up with Shazier he was acceptable. Now, not so much. Shazier may never play again. If I'm the FO I'm looking at ILB in this draft as well. Couple key injuries and JAGs at certain positions and the defense looks pedestrian and even pathetic at times. Heavy defensive draft If I'm the Steelers.


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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:51 am 
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MeanJustinBarlow wrote:
With ILB as thin as it is now, can we atart the conversation on just drafting and signing 2-3 genuine, pure edge pass rushers, 270lb type guys?

Tuitt is the strong side end backed up by a FA/rookie
Heyward the three tech backed up by walton and a FA/rookie
Hargrave the nose backed up by Alualu
New guy is the edge backed up by a Chickillo

Sam is Watt backed up by Moats
Mike is Vince Wiliams backed up by Matekavich
Will is Dupree backed up by Fort

I know they like to be able to still deploy odd/bear fronts, and they still could with thrse alignments, but I think getting a pure edge rusher completes the transformation of this defense and lwts those athletic OLBs drop even more where they do their best work.

Thoughts?

Pure edge rusher with Cam, Tuit, Hargrave...... Aluala and Walton rotating in and out.
A relentless front 4 going after the QB while dropping 7 is ideal.
Sucks that Dupree has not turned out to be that guy......as he should have been that 6'-4 - 270 demon on the edge.

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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:00 am 
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Dupree is 2nd on the team and in the top 35 in the NFL in tackles at or behind the LOS.

His pure sack numbers leave a lot to be desired but he's used in coverage a lot. I don't think he's as bad as people here do.

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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:13 am 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
I know this has been a popular discussion over the years and I agree to a point. 43's have a little better success than the 34's do, IMO. Proven again and again. I think until they fix the secondary it won't make much of a difference to change the defensive philosophy. Safety is a must as is a hardnosed corner with ball skills. Perhaps another Hilton would suffice. Wanted badly for Wilcox to be that FA diamond in the rough but that didn't pan out. Haven't seen enough of Wilcox in the defense to make any educated opinion's. May not even return next season. Burns has been a bit of a disappointment to me. He is an emotional hothead that is very susceptible to mistakes and can't form tackle with any consistency. Not fulfilling his draft selection status IMO. Before those folks come in here and rip on me I say look at the stats first. Where are the game changing splash plays? Hilton has shown more in less time and didn't come into the NFL with the same fanfare as Burns. Besides, it's just an opinion. Dupree is a real bummer. Can't really say anymore. Guy has done nothing of substance all year. Not a bust just a huge disappointment especially where he was drafted. Anyway, I look to limp through the rest of this season and look to improve my secondary first and foremost in the off season. Either through the draft (likely) or FA. Then I look at OLB's because Dupree isn't getting it done, Moats is done and Chickillo is JAG. No one behind them. Then there's the glaring issue with ILB. No one outside of VWill who at best is an above average player. Teamed up with Shazier he was acceptable. Now, not so much. Shazier may never play again. If I'm the FO I'm looking at ILB in this draft as well. Couple key injuries and JAGs at certain positions and the defense looks pedestrian and even pathetic at times. Heavy defensive draft If I'm the Steelers.


The loss to the Pats gave a glimpse of what the Steelers lack.

If we were all told, on Sunday morning/afternoon before the game even started,
That halfway thru the fourth quarter the Pats had a total of 16 points
After 58 minutes of football, The PS would have held the Pats to 19 points.
We would have all said, WOW. The defense finally figured it out.

And they did.
They were playing better defense against the Pats in last 10-12 meetings.
They were hitting Brady with Defensive linemen.
They were getting to Brady without really blitzing.
There was one or 2 Hilton Blitzes.
But do not recall Vince Williams and his up the gut blitzes.
Or rushing more than 4 on many plays?
Would like to see the numbers of how many times they rushed 5 or more....vs. just 4.

The let down on the last 2 Pats drives came down to about 4 or 5 plays.

3rd and 3 at the Steelers 44 and the ticky tacky PI call on Burns covering Gronk that took the ball to the Steelers 21.
Burns did not grab his arms, did not grab his jersey, did not trip up his feet.
Bryants one arm was held for about 10 yards of his running one handed TD catch. No flag.
6 penalties vs. 2.
Now if they let that go, Pats most likely go for it at the Steelers 44, on 4th and 3.

Then the last three drives the lack of attention to covering the biggest guy on the field, the QBs go to guy.......... in the biggest drive of the season.
One, not banging him with a bigger guy at the line, followed up with a DB to cover him after he gets banged.
Two, the lack of instinct, territory coverage, closing skills and ball skills of Mike Mitchell.
My son and I were angrily alarmed at how deep he was playing pre-snap.
At how far back he back pedaled on snap.
And how far behind Gronk he was while making catches 20-25 yards downfield. He was still 5-7 yards behind Gronk when he actually made those catches.
Which means he was even further back when he finally realized to stop back pedaling and stared to close.

The 2018 offseason / Draft / FA needs to be heavy on defense again.
A Safety with ball skills and smarts who can cover ground may be the biggest need.
An ILB with speed and coverage skills.
A CB / S / ILB hybrid with coverage skills.
A pass rushing OLB ............whose best traits are actually his pass rushing abilities.

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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:22 am 
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I think it was Inside the NFL that had Ray Lewis shaking his head on how the PS failed to give proper attention to Gronk on that last drive.

He said the Ravens would line up a big body / DE on Gronk at the line and bang him good before releasing to rush the QB.

That there should have been the plan.
If he is left, Dupree bangs him with enough speed to then make a bee line to the QB.........maybe the RT loses Dupree in the scuffle
If he lines up right, its Watt he bangs with him with enough speed, motor and instincts to go after the QB after release.

I think Sean Davis would have a hell of a much better assignment after Gronk was continually harassed at the line.
Less head of steam for Gronk.
Maybe pushed off route and timing with Brady, etc.
And most likely not getting behind Davis as much.

Its not rocket science.
But they could have at least tried

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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:27 am 
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Stosh-67 wrote:
I think it was Inside the NFL that had Ray Lewis shaking his head on how the PS failed to give proper attention to Gronk on that last drive.

He said the Ravens would line up a big body / DE on Gronk at the line and bang him good before releasing to rush the QB.

That there should have been the plan.
If he is left, Dupree bangs him with enough speed to then make a bee line to the QB.........maybe the RT loses Dupree in the scuffle
If he lines up right, its Watt he bangs with him with enough speed, motor and instincts to go after the QB after release.

I think Sean Davis would have a hell of a much better assignment after Gronk was continually harassed at the line.
Less head of steam for Gronk.
Maybe pushed off route and timing with Brady, etc.
And most likely not getting behind Davis as much.

Its not rocket science.
But they could have at least tried


B2B said on one of the plays, we did have Watt, Davis, and Mitchell on him but Brady dropped a perfect pass into his basket.

I haven't gone back and watched it again...I don't remember that at all. Maybe on the first play when Davis just barely missed the INT (and who didn't know that dropped INT wouldn't haunt us, BTW?) but the three big passes he caught I am fairly sure he was singled against Davis and Mitchell was nowhere nearby with any safety help...in fact on one cheated AWAY from Gronk's side.

Tomlin said he was supposed to be bracketed but it didn't happen...but that once again points to communications issues between coaches and players.

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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:29 am 
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Stosh-67 wrote:
Steelafan77 wrote:
I know this has been a popular discussion over the years and I agree to a point. 43's have a little better success than the 34's do, IMO. Proven again and again. I think until they fix the secondary it won't make much of a difference to change the defensive philosophy. Safety is a must as is a hardnosed corner with ball skills. Perhaps another Hilton would suffice. Wanted badly for Wilcox to be that FA diamond in the rough but that didn't pan out. Haven't seen enough of Wilcox in the defense to make any educated opinion's. May not even return next season. Burns has been a bit of a disappointment to me. He is an emotional hothead that is very susceptible to mistakes and can't form tackle with any consistency. Not fulfilling his draft selection status IMO. Before those folks come in here and rip on me I say look at the stats first. Where are the game changing splash plays? Hilton has shown more in less time and didn't come into the NFL with the same fanfare as Burns. Besides, it's just an opinion. Dupree is a real bummer. Can't really say anymore. Guy has done nothing of substance all year. Not a bust just a huge disappointment especially where he was drafted. Anyway, I look to limp through the rest of this season and look to improve my secondary first and foremost in the off season. Either through the draft (likely) or FA. Then I look at OLB's because Dupree isn't getting it done, Moats is done and Chickillo is JAG. No one behind them. Then there's the glaring issue with ILB. No one outside of VWill who at best is an above average player. Teamed up with Shazier he was acceptable. Now, not so much. Shazier may never play again. If I'm the FO I'm looking at ILB in this draft as well. Couple key injuries and JAGs at certain positions and the defense looks pedestrian and even pathetic at times. Heavy defensive draft If I'm the Steelers.


The loss to the Pats gave a glimpse of what the Steelers lack.

If we were all told, on Sunday morning/afternoon before the game even started,
That halfway thru the fourth quarter the Pats had a total of 16 points
After 58 minutes of football, The PS would have held the Pats to 19 points.
We would have all said, WOW. The defense finally figured it out.

And they did.
They were playing better defense against the Pats in last 10-12 meetings.
They were hitting Brady with Defensive linemen.
They were getting to Brady without really blitzing.
There was one or 2 Hilton Blitzes.
But do not recall Vince Williams and his up the gut blitzes.
Or rushing more than 4 on many plays?
Would like to see the numbers of how many times they rushed 5 or more....vs. just 4.

The let down on the last 2 Pats drives came down to about 4 or 5 plays.

3rd and 3 at the Steelers 44 and the ticky tacky PI call on Burns covering Gronk that took the ball to the Steelers 21.
Burns did not grab his arms, did not grab his jersey, did not trip up his feet.
Bryants one arm was held for about 10 yards of his running one handed TD catch. No flag.
6 penalties vs. 2.
Now if they let that go, Pats most likely go for it at the Steelers 44, on 4th and 3.

Then the last three drives the lack of attention to covering the biggest guy on the field, the QBs go to guy.......... in the biggest drive of the season.
One, not banging him with a bigger guy at the line, followed up with a DB to cover him after he gets banged.
Two, the lack of instinct, territory coverage, closing skills and ball skills of Mike Mitchell.
My son and I were angrily alarmed at how deep he was playing pre-snap.
At how far back he back pedaled on snap.
And how far behind Gronk he was while making catches 20-25 yards downfield. He was still 5-7 yards behind Gronk when he actually made those catches.
Which means he was even further back when he finally realized to stop back pedaling and stared to close.

The 2018 offseason / Draft / FA needs to be heavy on defense again.
A Safety with ball skills and smarts who can cover ground may be the biggest need.
An ILB with speed and coverage skills.
A CB / S / ILB hybrid with coverage skills.
A pass rushing OLB ............whose best traits are actually his pass rushing abilities.


I go back and forth on the DPI on Burns, but that flag pissed me off because the official didn't even make an attempt to throw it until AFTER he saw the result of the play (incomplete pass). No double-clutching or anything like that...was clearly a "wait for the play to end...oh...incomplete? FLAG!!!"

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"That Super Bowl was not won yesterday. It was won in a small room in Philadelphia, two weeks ago."


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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:50 am 
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Aw man I forgot about that Davis INT drop. Would of also iced the game.

You know everyone is wondering about gronk but Steelers have a truly shitty history of covering TE. Alge crumpler anyone? Yeah some are impact players like gronk but many times they’ve had simply no answer for the TE down the seam play.

Any rate I’m not as down on Sean Davis as many are. He’s like burns at least at this stage. They can’t be asked to do too much


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 Post subject: Re: One player away from a 4-3?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:04 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
Stosh-67 wrote:
Steelafan77 wrote:
I know this has been a popular discussion over the years and I agree to a point. 43's have a little better success than the 34's do, IMO. Proven again and again. I think until they fix the secondary it won't make much of a difference to change the defensive philosophy. Safety is a must as is a hardnosed corner with ball skills. Perhaps another Hilton would suffice. Wanted badly for Wilcox to be that FA diamond in the rough but that didn't pan out. Haven't seen enough of Wilcox in the defense to make any educated opinion's. May not even return next season. Burns has been a bit of a disappointment to me. He is an emotional hothead that is very susceptible to mistakes and can't form tackle with any consistency. Not fulfilling his draft selection status IMO. Before those folks come in here and rip on me I say look at the stats first. Where are the game changing splash plays? Hilton has shown more in less time and didn't come into the NFL with the same fanfare as Burns. Besides, it's just an opinion. Dupree is a real bummer. Can't really say anymore. Guy has done nothing of substance all year. Not a bust just a huge disappointment especially where he was drafted. Anyway, I look to limp through the rest of this season and look to improve my secondary first and foremost in the off season. Either through the draft (likely) or FA. Then I look at OLB's because Dupree isn't getting it done, Moats is done and Chickillo is JAG. No one behind them. Then there's the glaring issue with ILB. No one outside of VWill who at best is an above average player. Teamed up with Shazier he was acceptable. Now, not so much. Shazier may never play again. If I'm the FO I'm looking at ILB in this draft as well. Couple key injuries and JAGs at certain positions and the defense looks pedestrian and even pathetic at times. Heavy defensive draft If I'm the Steelers.


The loss to the Pats gave a glimpse of what the Steelers lack.

If we were all told, on Sunday morning/afternoon before the game even started,
That halfway thru the fourth quarter the Pats had a total of 16 points
After 58 minutes of football, The PS would have held the Pats to 19 points.
We would have all said, WOW. The defense finally figured it out.

And they did.
They were playing better defense against the Pats in last 10-12 meetings.
They were hitting Brady with Defensive linemen.
They were getting to Brady without really blitzing.
There was one or 2 Hilton Blitzes.
But do not recall Vince Williams and his up the gut blitzes.
Or rushing more than 4 on many plays?
Would like to see the numbers of how many times they rushed 5 or more....vs. just 4.

The let down on the last 2 Pats drives came down to about 4 or 5 plays.

3rd and 3 at the Steelers 44 and the ticky tacky PI call on Burns covering Gronk that took the ball to the Steelers 21.
Burns did not grab his arms, did not grab his jersey, did not trip up his feet.
Bryants one arm was held for about 10 yards of his running one handed TD catch. No flag.
6 penalties vs. 2.
Now if they let that go, Pats most likely go for it at the Steelers 44, on 4th and 3.

Then the last three drives the lack of attention to covering the biggest guy on the field, the QBs go to guy.......... in the biggest drive of the season.
One, not banging him with a bigger guy at the line, followed up with a DB to cover him after he gets banged.
Two, the lack of instinct, territory coverage, closing skills and ball skills of Mike Mitchell.
My son and I were angrily alarmed at how deep he was playing pre-snap.
At how far back he back pedaled on snap.
And how far behind Gronk he was while making catches 20-25 yards downfield. He was still 5-7 yards behind Gronk when he actually made those catches.
Which means he was even further back when he finally realized to stop back pedaling and stared to close.

The 2018 offseason / Draft / FA needs to be heavy on defense again.
A Safety with ball skills and smarts who can cover ground may be the biggest need.
An ILB with speed and coverage skills.
A CB / S / ILB hybrid with coverage skills.
A pass rushing OLB ............whose best traits are actually his pass rushing abilities.


[b]I go back and forth on the DPI on Burns, but that flag pissed me off because the official didn't even make an attempt to throw it until AFTER he saw the result of the play (incomplete pass). No double-clutching or anything like that...was clearly a "wait for the play to end...oh...incomplete? FLAG!!![/b]"



That's because that was a complete bullshit call.


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