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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:49 pm 
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Baltostiller wrote:
I'd really hate to lose Munchak. He has done a great job.

Did anyone else notice what Ben said regarding Munchak? He said something to the effect that players really listen to coaches who played at the highest level (gold jacket I think). He then said that they listen more to someone like that than to someone who never played the game. A dig at Haley?


Of course it's another shot at the golfer. Haley is a white board jockey, not a jock.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:26 pm 
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BethlehemSteel wrote:
Baltostiller wrote:
I'd really hate to lose Munchak. He has done a great job.

Did anyone else notice what Ben said regarding Munchak? He said something to the effect that players really listen to coaches who played at the highest level (gold jacket I think). He then said that they listen more to someone like that than to someone who never played the game. A dig at Haley?


Of course it's another shot at the golfer. Haley is a white board jockey, not a jock.


Our secondary under the direction of Carnell Lake gives up explosive pass plays all the time and Dupree, who has all the physical gifts in the world, under Porter has really underwhelmed. But players really listen to guys who have done it at the highest level, like Porter and Lake.

There are clearly reasons to be dissatisfied with Haley, but Ben's out of context quote is not, in my opinion, one of them.

So it might be a dig at Haley, but all the listening to Lake, if Ben is right and Lake's guys are listening because he played at the highest level (all-decade team), is not doing shit for the secondary.

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We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:32 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
BethlehemSteel wrote:
Baltostiller wrote:
I'd really hate to lose Munchak. He has done a great job.

Did anyone else notice what Ben said regarding Munchak? He said something to the effect that players really listen to coaches who played at the highest level (gold jacket I think). He then said that they listen more to someone like that than to someone who never played the game. A dig at Haley?


Of course it's another shot at the golfer. Haley is a white board jockey, not a jock.


Our secondary under the direction of Carnell Lake gives up explosive pass plays all the time and Dupree, who has all the physical gifts in the world, under Porter has really underwhelmed. But players really listen to guys who have done it at the highest level, like Porter and Lake.

There are clearly reasons to be dissatisfied with Haley, but Ben's out of context quote is not, in my opinion, one of them.

So it might be a dig at Haley, but all the listening to Lake, if Ben is right and Lake's guys are listening because he played at the highest level (all-decade team), is not doing shit for the secondary.


But to the original question, putting Porter and Lake aside, I'd still rather hang on to Munchak. You don't think his solidifying of a once terrible offensive line had anything to do with sack numbers going down and scoring numbers going up?


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:39 pm 
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Ice wrote:
But to the original question, putting Porter and Lake aside, I'd still rather hang on to Munchak. You don't think his solidifying of a once terrible offensive line had anything to do with sack numbers going down and scoring numbers going up?


Surely Munchak has had a positive effect. Absolutely.

But Haley also designed an offense to keep Ben from getting killed.

And, again, under Haley (and Munchak), 4/6 of the top scoring seasons have all occurred in the last 4 years.

Haley sure seemed like a good scape goat up through the Jax debacle, but the offense has been humming along nicely since.

Seems to me that around here, all the bad is Haley's fault and all the good is Ben's. I don't buy that.

EDIT: I do not consider myself to be sufficiently knowledgeable of all that needs to be known to answer the OPs question. But gun to my head, keep Munchak.

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We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


Last edited by Still Lit on Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:40 pm 
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I don't understand the objective arguments against Haley.

I get that people don't like him, but the facts are generally in his favor.

Re: the original question, for the playoff run Haley would be the greater loss. Long term Munchak is the bigger loss.

btw most of the top coaches haven't played at the highest level, so if you are claiming Ben's statements about Munchak are a shot at Haley they must also be a shot at BB, Tomlin, Harbaugh, etc etc

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:40 pm 
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maybe some guys in the secondary are below par like to see what happens with the progression of Sutton. we know Hilton has flourished too.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:49 pm 
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Lifelongsteel wrote:
I don't understand the objective arguments against Haley.

I get that people don't like him, but the facts are generally in his favor.

Re: the original question, for the playoff run Haley would be the greater loss. Long term Munchak is the bigger loss.

btw most of the top coaches haven't played at the highest level, so if you are claiming Ben's statements about Munchak are a shot at Haley they must also be a shot at BB, Tomlin, Harbaugh, etc etc


Well what’s the objective here? Are we trying to win the SB? If so, who shall I blame for the ridiculous offensive game plan in the second half of the Pats game that almost assuredly punched our tickets to Foxboro if we make the AFCCG? 13-3 is a tremendous season but what does it mean if you can’t win the one that counts?


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:03 pm 
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Since Haley has no scheduled conversations and Munch has one (Pittsburgh West, no less), the league is beginning to make its opinion known on the subject.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:09 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
If Haley leaves, do we get to keep his play designs?

Saw this on Depot: four of the top six scoring seasons in franchise history have come over the past four years.

Fun to throw tomatoes at Haley, but that is impressive.

I give him almost no credit for that. To me the credit goes mostly to personnel decisions in FO, Ben, Munchak, elite talent, in that order.

Elite WR, RB, QB, OL. More no-huddle. Munchak, according to Haley and others, is the one who designs the run plays and selects which ones each week for the gameplan.

We're running an offense that is cumulative over the course of Ben's career, and it's mostly about option routes. I think it's clear as day that the more Haley is removed from the equation, the better.

As for personnel, the team has been super strong at selecting/signing WR & RB (other than the elf on the shelf). The QBs he seems to love... Jones & Dobbs don't seem to have much big time potential but are very conservative choices for small ball.

I not only don't think we'll miss him, I think the offense would be better next year without him, all other things being equal.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:11 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Since Haley has no scheduled conversations and Munch has one (Pittsburgh West, no less), the league is beginning to make its opinion known on the subject.


This assumes Haley is interested and that the Steelers are open to letting him interview during a SB run.

Or are these not assumptions?

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:13 pm 
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Lifelongsteel wrote:
I don't understand the objective arguments against Haley.

I get that people don't like him, but the facts are generally in his favor.

Re: the original question, for the playoff run Haley would be the greater loss. Long term Munchak is the bigger loss.

btw most of the top coaches haven't played at the highest level, so if you are claiming Ben's statements about Munchak are a shot at Haley they must also be a shot at BB, Tomlin, Harbaugh, etc etc

The YPA is down-- that contraindicates championship efforts.
Still more about TOP than points per drive.
The offense moves and playcalling diversifies mysteriously when Haley isn't calling all the plays.
Someone else was tasked with designing and gamplanning the running game.
Someone else was tasked with creating 2 pt plays.
The HOF QB seems to hate him.
Everyone wants him off the sideline.

Not saying he is a complete maroon or that he hasn't added value somewhere... but he's not a good OC.

Not 100% objective but there it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:14 pm 
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I agree AccidentalZen. In fact, the second half of the Pats game is a perfect example to me of how Haley backs the Ferrari into a light pole. That is not how you win that kind of game, yet we once again deviate from what is clearly working. I’ve said since that game that it was lost long before the Outlaw didn’t survive the ground.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:17 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Lifelongsteel wrote:
I don't understand the objective arguments against Haley.

I get that people don't like him, but the facts are generally in his favor.

Re: the original question, for the playoff run Haley would be the greater loss. Long term Munchak is the bigger loss.

btw most of the top coaches haven't played at the highest level, so if you are claiming Ben's statements about Munchak are a shot at Haley they must also be a shot at BB, Tomlin, Harbaugh, etc etc

The YPA is down-- that contraindicates championship efforts.
Still more about TOP than points per drive.
The offense moves and playcalling diversifies mysteriously when Haley isn't calling all the plays.
Someone else was tasked with designing and gamplanning the running game.
Someone else was tasked with creating 2 pt plays.
The HOF QB seems to hate him.
Everyone wants him off the sideline.

Not saying he is a complete maroon or that he hasn't added value somewhere... but he's not a good OC.

Not 100% objective but there it is.


He's been with the team 6 years. Another year would be 7!

Do OCs usually stay this long?

Only Darrell Bevell with Seattle has a longer tenure (2011).

Then you have Haley and McDaniels both hired as OCs for their teams in 2012. Both failed ex-HCs, too.

I think Haley's contract is up, yes?

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Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


Last edited by Still Lit on Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:18 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:
I agree AccidentalZen. In fact, the second half of the Pats game is a perfect example to me of how Haley backs the Ferrari into a light pole. That is not how you win that kind of game, yet we once again deviate from what is clearly working. I’ve said since that game that it was lost long before the Outlaw didn’t survive the ground.


Isn't that Tomlin's fault, when it comes down to it? Why allow turtle-mode?

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We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:19 pm 
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Haley's contract expires at the end of this season and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that Ben returning is tied to Haley returning... in the inverse.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:22 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Ice wrote:
Since Haley has no scheduled conversations and Munch has one (Pittsburgh West, no less), the league is beginning to make its opinion known on the subject.


This assumes Haley is interested and that the Steelers are open to letting him interview during a SB run.

Or are these not assumptions?


These are teams asking to schedule conversations, so sort of my bad there. The Steelers, that I can remember, haven't shown any tendency to hold their coordinators or assistants back from interviews. This really is the GMs of the NFL answering the question for us, for all intents and purposes.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:23 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Haley's contract expires at the end of this season and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that Ben returning is tied to Haley returning... in the inverse.


I've heard similar speculation.

Still, let's not run Haley out of town on a rail.

We could have had far worse.

Four out of the top six scoring seasons all in the last four years.

I hope we do not have a bad case of the grass being greener...

Either Haley or Fichnter.

Maybe Haley stays and Fichtner is given play-calling duties.

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Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:24 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Orangesteel wrote:
I agree AccidentalZen. In fact, the second half of the Pats game is a perfect example to me of how Haley backs the Ferrari into a light pole. That is not how you win that kind of game, yet we once again deviate from what is clearly working. I’ve said since that game that it was lost long before the Outlaw didn’t survive the ground.


Isn't that Tomlin's fault, when it comes down to it? Why allow turtle-mode?


Not sure. Am I allowed to criticize Tomlin for that?


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:24 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Ice wrote:
Since Haley has no scheduled conversations and Munch has one (Pittsburgh West, no less), the league is beginning to make its opinion known on the subject.


This assumes Haley is interested and that the Steelers are open to letting him interview during a SB run.

Or are these not assumptions?


These are teams asking to schedule conversations, so sort of my bad there. The Steelers, that I can remember, haven't shown any tendency to hold their coordinators or assistants back from interviews. This really is the GMs of the NFL answering the question for us, for all intents and purposes.


Fair enough. But I wonder if Haley is interested. He may not be. Who knows. Obviously the Steelers are cool with position coaches doing interviews, but I do not recall their history with letting coordinators interview during playoffs.

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Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:25 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Orangesteel wrote:
I agree AccidentalZen. In fact, the second half of the Pats game is a perfect example to me of how Haley backs the Ferrari into a light pole. That is not how you win that kind of game, yet we once again deviate from what is clearly working. I’ve said since that game that it was lost long before the Outlaw didn’t survive the ground.


Isn't that Tomlin's fault, when it comes down to it? Why allow turtle-mode?


Not sure. Am I allowed to criticize Tomlin for that?


I hope that is a rhetorical question.

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We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Haley's contract expires at the end of this season and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that Ben returning is tied to Haley returning... in the inverse.


I've heard similar speculation.

Still, let's not run Haley out of town on a rail.

We could have had far worse.

Four out of the top six scoring seasons all in the last four years.

I hope we do not have a bad case of the grass being greener...

Either Haley or Fichnter.

Maybe Haley stays and Fichtner is given play-calling duties.


I like Haley the play designer, I hate Haley the play caller. I wonder how much of this is on Tomlin and how much is on Haley. Tomlin hears every play call and can overrule Haley at any time. Direction comes form the top.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:27 pm 
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Also, in regards to Haley "designing an offensive plan not to get Ben killed," which I think is one of the more easily debunked myths of his tenure, wouldn't drastically improving the offensive line and strengthening the running game have at least 2/3 of the effect on that score?


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:28 pm 
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I happen to think the shine is a little bit off of the "Haley the play designer" penny, as well.


Last edited by Ice on Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:28 pm 
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Baltostiller wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Haley's contract expires at the end of this season and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that Ben returning is tied to Haley returning... in the inverse.


I've heard similar speculation.

Still, let's not run Haley out of town on a rail.

We could have had far worse.

Four out of the top six scoring seasons all in the last four years.

I hope we do not have a bad case of the grass being greener...

Either Haley or Fichnter.

Maybe Haley stays and Fichtner is given play-calling duties.


I like Haley the play designer, I hate Haley the play caller. I wonder how much of this is on Tomlin and how much is on Haley. Tomlin hears every play call and can overrule Haley at any time. Direction comes form the top.


See, this is my sense. Tomlin has kept Haley for 6 years. He must like the dude. I do not buy for a second that Tomlin could not seek Haley's ouster if he really wanted it. Methinks turtle-moding is Tomlin approved. By god, I hope those two have learned their lesson.

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Orangesteel wrote:
We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


Last edited by Still Lit on Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:31 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Also, in regards to Haley "designing an offensive plan not to get Ben killed," which I think is one of the more easily debunked myths of his tenure, wouldn't drastically improving the offensive line and strengthening the running game have at least 2/3 of the effect on that score?


I think as the o line has improved, the quick release play calling has lessened.

Haley no longer needs to keep Ben upright because of the o line's stellar play.

Am I supposed to give Munchak more credit than Haley for producing four of the six top scoring offenses in the team's history?

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We could have ended the game there and Tomlin’s band of assholes let them back in.


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