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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:13 pm 
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Lifelongsteel wrote:
I don't understand the objective arguments against Haley.

I get that people don't like him, but the facts are generally in his favor.

Re: the original question, for the playoff run Haley would be the greater loss. Long term Munchak is the bigger loss.

btw most of the top coaches haven't played at the highest level, so if you are claiming Ben's statements about Munchak are a shot at Haley they must also be a shot at BB, Tomlin, Harbaugh, etc etc

The YPA is down-- that contraindicates championship efforts.
Still more about TOP than points per drive.
The offense moves and playcalling diversifies mysteriously when Haley isn't calling all the plays.
Someone else was tasked with designing and gamplanning the running game.
Someone else was tasked with creating 2 pt plays.
The HOF QB seems to hate him.
Everyone wants him off the sideline.

Not saying he is a complete maroon or that he hasn't added value somewhere... but he's not a good OC.

Not 100% objective but there it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:14 pm 
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I agree AccidentalZen. In fact, the second half of the Pats game is a perfect example to me of how Haley backs the Ferrari into a light pole. That is not how you win that kind of game, yet we once again deviate from what is clearly working. I’ve said since that game that it was lost long before the Outlaw didn’t survive the ground.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:17 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Lifelongsteel wrote:
I don't understand the objective arguments against Haley.

I get that people don't like him, but the facts are generally in his favor.

Re: the original question, for the playoff run Haley would be the greater loss. Long term Munchak is the bigger loss.

btw most of the top coaches haven't played at the highest level, so if you are claiming Ben's statements about Munchak are a shot at Haley they must also be a shot at BB, Tomlin, Harbaugh, etc etc

The YPA is down-- that contraindicates championship efforts.
Still more about TOP than points per drive.
The offense moves and playcalling diversifies mysteriously when Haley isn't calling all the plays.
Someone else was tasked with designing and gamplanning the running game.
Someone else was tasked with creating 2 pt plays.
The HOF QB seems to hate him.
Everyone wants him off the sideline.

Not saying he is a complete maroon or that he hasn't added value somewhere... but he's not a good OC.

Not 100% objective but there it is.


He's been with the team 6 years. Another year would be 7!

Do OCs usually stay this long?

Only Darrell Bevell with Seattle has a longer tenure (2011).

Then you have Haley and McDaniels both hired as OCs for their teams in 2012. Both failed ex-HCs, too.

I think Haley's contract is up, yes?

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Last edited by Still Lit on Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:18 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:
I agree AccidentalZen. In fact, the second half of the Pats game is a perfect example to me of how Haley backs the Ferrari into a light pole. That is not how you win that kind of game, yet we once again deviate from what is clearly working. I’ve said since that game that it was lost long before the Outlaw didn’t survive the ground.


Isn't that Tomlin's fault, when it comes down to it? Why allow turtle-mode?

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:19 pm 
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Haley's contract expires at the end of this season and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that Ben returning is tied to Haley returning... in the inverse.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:22 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Ice wrote:
Since Haley has no scheduled conversations and Munch has one (Pittsburgh West, no less), the league is beginning to make its opinion known on the subject.


This assumes Haley is interested and that the Steelers are open to letting him interview during a SB run.

Or are these not assumptions?


These are teams asking to schedule conversations, so sort of my bad there. The Steelers, that I can remember, haven't shown any tendency to hold their coordinators or assistants back from interviews. This really is the GMs of the NFL answering the question for us, for all intents and purposes.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:23 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Haley's contract expires at the end of this season and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that Ben returning is tied to Haley returning... in the inverse.


I've heard similar speculation.

Still, let's not run Haley out of town on a rail.

We could have had far worse.

Four out of the top six scoring seasons all in the last four years.

I hope we do not have a bad case of the grass being greener...

Either Haley or Fichnter.

Maybe Haley stays and Fichtner is given play-calling duties.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:24 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Orangesteel wrote:
I agree AccidentalZen. In fact, the second half of the Pats game is a perfect example to me of how Haley backs the Ferrari into a light pole. That is not how you win that kind of game, yet we once again deviate from what is clearly working. I’ve said since that game that it was lost long before the Outlaw didn’t survive the ground.


Isn't that Tomlin's fault, when it comes down to it? Why allow turtle-mode?


Not sure. Am I allowed to criticize Tomlin for that?


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:24 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Ice wrote:
Since Haley has no scheduled conversations and Munch has one (Pittsburgh West, no less), the league is beginning to make its opinion known on the subject.


This assumes Haley is interested and that the Steelers are open to letting him interview during a SB run.

Or are these not assumptions?


These are teams asking to schedule conversations, so sort of my bad there. The Steelers, that I can remember, haven't shown any tendency to hold their coordinators or assistants back from interviews. This really is the GMs of the NFL answering the question for us, for all intents and purposes.


Fair enough. But I wonder if Haley is interested. He may not be. Who knows. Obviously the Steelers are cool with position coaches doing interviews, but I do not recall their history with letting coordinators interview during playoffs.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:25 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Orangesteel wrote:
I agree AccidentalZen. In fact, the second half of the Pats game is a perfect example to me of how Haley backs the Ferrari into a light pole. That is not how you win that kind of game, yet we once again deviate from what is clearly working. I’ve said since that game that it was lost long before the Outlaw didn’t survive the ground.


Isn't that Tomlin's fault, when it comes down to it? Why allow turtle-mode?


Not sure. Am I allowed to criticize Tomlin for that?


I hope that is a rhetorical question.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Haley's contract expires at the end of this season and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that Ben returning is tied to Haley returning... in the inverse.


I've heard similar speculation.

Still, let's not run Haley out of town on a rail.

We could have had far worse.

Four out of the top six scoring seasons all in the last four years.

I hope we do not have a bad case of the grass being greener...

Either Haley or Fichnter.

Maybe Haley stays and Fichtner is given play-calling duties.


I like Haley the play designer, I hate Haley the play caller. I wonder how much of this is on Tomlin and how much is on Haley. Tomlin hears every play call and can overrule Haley at any time. Direction comes form the top.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:27 pm 
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Also, in regards to Haley "designing an offensive plan not to get Ben killed," which I think is one of the more easily debunked myths of his tenure, wouldn't drastically improving the offensive line and strengthening the running game have at least 2/3 of the effect on that score?


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:28 pm 
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I happen to think the shine is a little bit off of the "Haley the play designer" penny, as well.


Last edited by Ice on Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:28 pm 
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Baltostiller wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Haley's contract expires at the end of this season and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that Ben returning is tied to Haley returning... in the inverse.


I've heard similar speculation.

Still, let's not run Haley out of town on a rail.

We could have had far worse.

Four out of the top six scoring seasons all in the last four years.

I hope we do not have a bad case of the grass being greener...

Either Haley or Fichnter.

Maybe Haley stays and Fichtner is given play-calling duties.


I like Haley the play designer, I hate Haley the play caller. I wonder how much of this is on Tomlin and how much is on Haley. Tomlin hears every play call and can overrule Haley at any time. Direction comes form the top.


See, this is my sense. Tomlin has kept Haley for 6 years. He must like the dude. I do not buy for a second that Tomlin could not seek Haley's ouster if he really wanted it. Methinks turtle-moding is Tomlin approved. By god, I hope those two have learned their lesson.

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Last edited by Still Lit on Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:31 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Also, in regards to Haley "designing an offensive plan not to get Ben killed," which I think is one of the more easily debunked myths of his tenure, wouldn't drastically improving the offensive line and strengthening the running game have at least 2/3 of the effect on that score?


I think as the o line has improved, the quick release play calling has lessened.

Haley no longer needs to keep Ben upright because of the o line's stellar play.

Am I supposed to give Munchak more credit than Haley for producing four of the six top scoring offenses in the team's history?

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:31 pm 
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Baltostiller wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Haley's contract expires at the end of this season and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that Ben returning is tied to Haley returning... in the inverse.


I've heard similar speculation.

Still, let's not run Haley out of town on a rail.

We could have had far worse.

Four out of the top six scoring seasons all in the last four years.

I hope we do not have a bad case of the grass being greener...

Either Haley or Fichnter.

Maybe Haley stays and Fichtner is given play-calling duties.


I like Haley the play designer, I hate Haley the play caller. I wonder how much of this is on Tomlin and how much is on Haley. Tomlin hears every play call and can overrule Haley at any time. Direction comes form the top.


Is it possible that HC/QB/OC not being on the same page is why it takes us the full playclock to get the ball snapped every single non no-huddle play we run?


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:32 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Is it possible that HC/QB/OC not being on the same page is why it takes us the full playclock to get the ball snapped every single non no-huddle play we run?


Now I will not be shocked if I am wrong about this, but it seems to me that that BS goes to back to Arians. I think Ben just likes the long survey.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:35 pm 
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If Munch is coaching the O-line, coordinating the run game, Fitch is designing the two point plays, and Ben is controlling the game in the no-huddle, as well as the fact that his "play design" is basically dictated on PLAYERS WINNING MATCHUPS than scheming them open, then yes, Haley deserves less than half the credit for the scoring offense. Probably less than that.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:40 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Ice wrote:
Also, in regards to Haley "designing an offensive plan not to get Ben killed," which I think is one of the more easily debunked myths of his tenure, wouldn't drastically improving the offensive line and strengthening the running game have at least 2/3 of the effect on that score?


I think as the o line has improved, the quick release play calling has lessened.

Haley no longer needs to keep Ben upright because of the o line's stellar play.

Am I supposed to give Munchak more credit than Haley for producing four of the six top scoring offenses in the team's history?
Yes. Munchak was hired in jan, 2014. Those scoring seasons were '14.'15, '16, and '17. Haley was hired in 2012. Leveon bell was drafted in 2013. BR and Brown account for much of those points.

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Last edited by COR-TEN on Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:46 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Ice wrote:
Also, in regards to Haley "designing an offensive plan not to get Ben killed," which I think is one of the more easily debunked myths of his tenure, wouldn't drastically improving the offensive line and strengthening the running game have at least 2/3 of the effect on that score?


I think as the o line has improved, the quick release play calling has lessened.

Haley no longer needs to keep Ben upright because of the o line's stellar play.

Am I supposed to give Munchak more credit than Haley for producing four of the six top scoring offenses in the team's history?


...and when we go into New England and get our asses kicked again, because Haley called a draw to Fitz and put the offense in give up mode against the Pats, WE WILL HAVE SHIT TO SHOW FOR THOSE HIGH SCORING SEASONS.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:48 pm 
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KC wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Ice wrote:
Also, in regards to Haley "designing an offensive plan not to get Ben killed," which I think is one of the more easily debunked myths of his tenure, wouldn't drastically improving the offensive line and strengthening the running game have at least 2/3 of the effect on that score?


I think as the o line has improved, the quick release play calling has lessened.

Haley no longer needs to keep Ben upright because of the o line's stellar play.

Am I supposed to give Munchak more credit than Haley for producing four of the six top scoring offenses in the team's history?


...and when we go into New England and get our asses kicked again, because Haley called a draw to Fitz and put the offense in give up mode against the Pats, WE WILL HAVE SHIT TO SHOW FOR THOSE HIGH SCORING SEASONS.


I think the turtling is possibly Tomlin mandated or approved.

And if all interested parties would care to scroll up some, you'll see who I said I would pick to keep.

Haley is everyone's whipping boy. I do not know if he deserves the amount of scorn he gets on here.

Why on earth has the team kept him for 6 years?

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:50 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Haley's contract expires at the end of this season and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that Ben returning is tied to Haley returning... in the inverse.


I've heard similar speculation.

Still, let's not run Haley out of town on a rail.

We could have had far worse.

Four out of the top six scoring seasons all in the last four years.

I hope we do not have a bad case of the grass being greener...

Either Haley or Fichnter.

Maybe Haley stays and Fichtner is given play-calling duties.


Lit, while I tend to agree with you on your Tomlin and turtling comment, I wonder if the bolded above comment is more a combination of the Steelers having a top three O Line and a top three QB (not sure that's happened in along time - if ever), coupled with a league that's hell-bent on getting scores higher. I can certainly see how those variables could play a larger role than Haley has over the last few years offensive success.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:54 pm 
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DP39 wrote:
Lit, while I tend to agree with you on your Tomlin and turtling comment, I wonder if the bolded above comment is more a combination of the Steelers having a top three O Line and a top three QB (not sure that's happened in along time - if ever), coupled with a league that's hell-bent on getting scores higher. I can certainly see how those variables could play a larger role than Haley has over the last few years offensive success.


I think Ice and COR TEN are right that the Munchak and Bell made the offense explode. It does not follow that Haley's play designs and / or play calls had less than half to do with it. It does not follow that Haley did not have less than half to do with it, either, of course.

But why has Tomlin kept him for 6 frigging years if he is so demonstrably awful?

Easiest dude to beat up on is the OC.

Not taking a side, really, just trying to push back and see what sticks.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:55 pm 
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This is what worries the shit out of me about our issues with NE. It isn’t talent. It’s become a complex that Tomlin is obsessed with and cannot conquer. Playing them in our house was the X factor in getting back to the Super Bowl and we screwed it away.

A lot needs to happen before the “rematch” but I’m not confident at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:59 pm 
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Also, and lest anyone hasn’t been paying attention, this is as wide open and good as a chance to get a ring as I can remember in the Ben era.

Matt Ryan
Cam Newton
Jared Goff
Case Keenam
Nick Foles
Drew Brees
Alex Smith
Marcus Mariota
Tyrod Taylor
Blake Bortles
Tom Brady
The Grey

There is one QB on there that scares me in a shootout. Maybe two if you throw in Brees playing in a dome. I’ll stretch to 3 if Goff can keep playing as he has. Otherwise that’s it.


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