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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:26 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Haley's contract expires at the end of this season and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that Ben returning is tied to Haley returning... in the inverse.


I've heard similar speculation.

Still, let's not run Haley out of town on a rail.

We could have had far worse.

Four out of the top six scoring seasons all in the last four years.

I hope we do not have a bad case of the grass being greener...

Either Haley or Fichnter.

Maybe Haley stays and Fichtner is given play-calling duties.


I like Haley the play designer, I hate Haley the play caller. I wonder how much of this is on Tomlin and how much is on Haley. Tomlin hears every play call and can overrule Haley at any time. Direction comes form the top.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:27 pm 
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Also, in regards to Haley "designing an offensive plan not to get Ben killed," which I think is one of the more easily debunked myths of his tenure, wouldn't drastically improving the offensive line and strengthening the running game have at least 2/3 of the effect on that score?


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:28 pm 
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I happen to think the shine is a little bit off of the "Haley the play designer" penny, as well.


Last edited by Ice on Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:28 pm 
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Baltostiller wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Haley's contract expires at the end of this season and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that Ben returning is tied to Haley returning... in the inverse.


I've heard similar speculation.

Still, let's not run Haley out of town on a rail.

We could have had far worse.

Four out of the top six scoring seasons all in the last four years.

I hope we do not have a bad case of the grass being greener...

Either Haley or Fichnter.

Maybe Haley stays and Fichtner is given play-calling duties.


I like Haley the play designer, I hate Haley the play caller. I wonder how much of this is on Tomlin and how much is on Haley. Tomlin hears every play call and can overrule Haley at any time. Direction comes form the top.


See, this is my sense. Tomlin has kept Haley for 6 years. He must like the dude. I do not buy for a second that Tomlin could not seek Haley's ouster if he really wanted it. Methinks turtle-moding is Tomlin approved. By god, I hope those two have learned their lesson.

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Last edited by Still Lit on Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:31 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Also, in regards to Haley "designing an offensive plan not to get Ben killed," which I think is one of the more easily debunked myths of his tenure, wouldn't drastically improving the offensive line and strengthening the running game have at least 2/3 of the effect on that score?


I think as the o line has improved, the quick release play calling has lessened.

Haley no longer needs to keep Ben upright because of the o line's stellar play.

Am I supposed to give Munchak more credit than Haley for producing four of the six top scoring offenses in the team's history?

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Breaking news: Tom Brady is also better than Ben Roethlisberger. Jerry Rice is better than Antonio Brown. Your mom is a bigger slut than my mom.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:31 pm 
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Baltostiller wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Haley's contract expires at the end of this season and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that Ben returning is tied to Haley returning... in the inverse.


I've heard similar speculation.

Still, let's not run Haley out of town on a rail.

We could have had far worse.

Four out of the top six scoring seasons all in the last four years.

I hope we do not have a bad case of the grass being greener...

Either Haley or Fichnter.

Maybe Haley stays and Fichtner is given play-calling duties.


I like Haley the play designer, I hate Haley the play caller. I wonder how much of this is on Tomlin and how much is on Haley. Tomlin hears every play call and can overrule Haley at any time. Direction comes form the top.


Is it possible that HC/QB/OC not being on the same page is why it takes us the full playclock to get the ball snapped every single non no-huddle play we run?


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:32 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Is it possible that HC/QB/OC not being on the same page is why it takes us the full playclock to get the ball snapped every single non no-huddle play we run?


Now I will not be shocked if I am wrong about this, but it seems to me that that BS goes to back to Arians. I think Ben just likes the long survey.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:35 pm 
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If Munch is coaching the O-line, coordinating the run game, Fitch is designing the two point plays, and Ben is controlling the game in the no-huddle, as well as the fact that his "play design" is basically dictated on PLAYERS WINNING MATCHUPS than scheming them open, then yes, Haley deserves less than half the credit for the scoring offense. Probably less than that.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:40 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Ice wrote:
Also, in regards to Haley "designing an offensive plan not to get Ben killed," which I think is one of the more easily debunked myths of his tenure, wouldn't drastically improving the offensive line and strengthening the running game have at least 2/3 of the effect on that score?


I think as the o line has improved, the quick release play calling has lessened.

Haley no longer needs to keep Ben upright because of the o line's stellar play.

Am I supposed to give Munchak more credit than Haley for producing four of the six top scoring offenses in the team's history?
Yes. Munchak was hired in jan, 2014. Those scoring seasons were '14.'15, '16, and '17. Haley was hired in 2012. Leveon bell was drafted in 2013. BR and Brown account for much of those points.

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Last edited by COR-TEN on Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:46 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Ice wrote:
Also, in regards to Haley "designing an offensive plan not to get Ben killed," which I think is one of the more easily debunked myths of his tenure, wouldn't drastically improving the offensive line and strengthening the running game have at least 2/3 of the effect on that score?


I think as the o line has improved, the quick release play calling has lessened.

Haley no longer needs to keep Ben upright because of the o line's stellar play.

Am I supposed to give Munchak more credit than Haley for producing four of the six top scoring offenses in the team's history?


...and when we go into New England and get our asses kicked again, because Haley called a draw to Fitz and put the offense in give up mode against the Pats, WE WILL HAVE SHIT TO SHOW FOR THOSE HIGH SCORING SEASONS.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:48 pm 
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KC wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Ice wrote:
Also, in regards to Haley "designing an offensive plan not to get Ben killed," which I think is one of the more easily debunked myths of his tenure, wouldn't drastically improving the offensive line and strengthening the running game have at least 2/3 of the effect on that score?


I think as the o line has improved, the quick release play calling has lessened.

Haley no longer needs to keep Ben upright because of the o line's stellar play.

Am I supposed to give Munchak more credit than Haley for producing four of the six top scoring offenses in the team's history?


...and when we go into New England and get our asses kicked again, because Haley called a draw to Fitz and put the offense in give up mode against the Pats, WE WILL HAVE SHIT TO SHOW FOR THOSE HIGH SCORING SEASONS.


I think the turtling is possibly Tomlin mandated or approved.

And if all interested parties would care to scroll up some, you'll see who I said I would pick to keep.

Haley is everyone's whipping boy. I do not know if he deserves the amount of scorn he gets on here.

Why on earth has the team kept him for 6 years?

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Breaking news: Tom Brady is also better than Ben Roethlisberger. Jerry Rice is better than Antonio Brown. Your mom is a bigger slut than my mom.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:50 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Haley's contract expires at the end of this season and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that Ben returning is tied to Haley returning... in the inverse.


I've heard similar speculation.

Still, let's not run Haley out of town on a rail.

We could have had far worse.

Four out of the top six scoring seasons all in the last four years.

I hope we do not have a bad case of the grass being greener...

Either Haley or Fichnter.

Maybe Haley stays and Fichtner is given play-calling duties.


Lit, while I tend to agree with you on your Tomlin and turtling comment, I wonder if the bolded above comment is more a combination of the Steelers having a top three O Line and a top three QB (not sure that's happened in along time - if ever), coupled with a league that's hell-bent on getting scores higher. I can certainly see how those variables could play a larger role than Haley has over the last few years offensive success.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:54 pm 
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DP39 wrote:
Lit, while I tend to agree with you on your Tomlin and turtling comment, I wonder if the bolded above comment is more a combination of the Steelers having a top three O Line and a top three QB (not sure that's happened in along time - if ever), coupled with a league that's hell-bent on getting scores higher. I can certainly see how those variables could play a larger role than Haley has over the last few years offensive success.


I think Ice and COR TEN are right that the Munchak and Bell made the offense explode. It does not follow that Haley's play designs and / or play calls had less than half to do with it. It does not follow that Haley did not have less than half to do with it, either, of course.

But why has Tomlin kept him for 6 frigging years if he is so demonstrably awful?

Easiest dude to beat up on is the OC.

Not taking a side, really, just trying to push back and see what sticks.

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Breaking news: Tom Brady is also better than Ben Roethlisberger. Jerry Rice is better than Antonio Brown. Your mom is a bigger slut than my mom.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:55 pm 
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This is what worries the shit out of me about our issues with NE. It isn’t talent. It’s become a complex that Tomlin is obsessed with and cannot conquer. Playing them in our house was the X factor in getting back to the Super Bowl and we screwed it away.

A lot needs to happen before the “rematch” but I’m not confident at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:59 pm 
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Also, and lest anyone hasn’t been paying attention, this is as wide open and good as a chance to get a ring as I can remember in the Ben era.

Matt Ryan
Cam Newton
Jared Goff
Case Keenam
Nick Foles
Drew Brees
Alex Smith
Marcus Mariota
Tyrod Taylor
Blake Bortles
Tom Brady
The Grey

There is one QB on there that scares me in a shootout. Maybe two if you throw in Brees playing in a dome. I’ll stretch to 3 if Goff can keep playing as he has. Otherwise that’s it.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:59 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
But why has Tomlin kept him for 6 frigging years if he is so demonstrably awful?
I'm guessing it's because of who was/ is available, offensive strategy alignment, and consistency in BR's later years.

Seeing Haley as persona non grata in the last two games tells me the offense is clicking despite him. When you see BR, Tomlin, and Fitch talk on the side lines while Haley is hiding behind the play sheet a couple of yards away. . .

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:01 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:
This is what worries the shit out of me about our issues with NE. It isn’t talent. It’s become a complex that Tomlin is obsessed with and cannot conquer. Playing them in our house was the X factor in getting back to the Super Bowl and we screwed it away.

A lot needs to happen before the “rematch” but I’m not confident at all.


If Tomlin did not learn to make Haley keep his foot on the gas, he never will.

I simply do not believe Mike Tomlin is in fact that stupid. It would be totally mystifying.

If the Steelers actually make it to the AFCCG and should it be in the Pats' house and the Steelers end up with a 7 or 10 point lead in Q4 and go into turtle mode, I will lose my mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:03 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
But why has Tomlin kept him for 6 frigging years if he is so demonstrably awful?
I'm guessing it's because of who was/ is available, offensive strategy alignment, and consistency in BR's later years.

Seeing Haley as persona non grata in the last two games tells me the offense is clicking despite him. When you see BR, Tomlin, and Fitch talk on the side lines while Haley is hiding behind the play sheet a couple of yards away. . .


This proposition: "the offense is clicking despite him"

Does not have to follow from this proposition: "Seeing Haley as persona non grata in the last two games"

Furthermore, it is unclear that one must accept that Haley is persona non grata, either.

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Breaking news: Tom Brady is also better than Ben Roethlisberger. Jerry Rice is better than Antonio Brown. Your mom is a bigger slut than my mom.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:05 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:
This is what worries the shit out of me about our issues with NE. It isn’t talent. It’s become a complex that Tomlin is obsessed with and cannot conquer. Playing them in our house was the X factor in getting back to the Super Bowl and we screwed it away.

A lot needs to happen before the “rematch” but I’m not confident at all.

You're projecting.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
I think the turtling is possibly Tomlin mandated or approved.

And if all interested parties would care to scroll up some, you'll see who I said I would pick to keep.

Haley is everyone's whipping boy. I do not know if he deserves the amount of scorn he gets on here.

Why on earth has the team kept him for 6 years?


I think Haley can draw up some awfully interesting plays and it's very true that he changed the way Ben Roethlisberger plays.

Ben gets rid of the ball much quicker now but Haley struggles mightily as a play caller. I doubt seriously Tomlin overrules Haley in the middle of a game.

Tomlin is an idiot for sure, in that he seems to trust a defense that has struggled against the shittiest of the shitty.

But everyone knows that this team will only go as far as our offense takes us.

Anyone with a working brain, that is. Our defense gives up waaaaay too many big plays and they'll do the same if we face New England again.

We don't score 40 we're likely going to be toast. Haley doesn't call plays like he's looking to score 40,.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:10 pm 
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KC wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
I think the turtling is possibly Tomlin mandated or approved.

And if all interested parties would care to scroll up some, you'll see who I said I would pick to keep.

Haley is everyone's whipping boy. I do not know if he deserves the amount of scorn he gets on here.

Why on earth has the team kept him for 6 years?


I think Haley can draw up some awfully interesting plays and it's very true that he changed the way Ben Roethlisberger plays.

Ben gets rid of the ball much quicker now but Haley struggles mightily as a play caller. I doubt seriously Tomlin overrules Haley in the middle of a game.

Tomlin is an idiot for sure, in that he seems to trust a defense that has struggled against the shittiest of the shitty.

But everyone knows that this team will only go as far as our offense takes us.

Anyone with a working brain, that is. Our defense gives up waaaaay too many big plays and they'll do the same if we face New England again.

We don't score 40 we're likely going to be toast. Haley doesn't call plays like he's looking to score 40,.
I think haley should be an offensive consultant, but stay off the sidelines.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:20 pm 
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Pretty sure that's what they've been trying to do, Cor.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:21 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Pretty sure that's what they've been trying to do, Cor.


I love that his professional life mimics his cuckholded personal one


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:25 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
KC wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
I think the turtling is possibly Tomlin mandated or approved.

And if all interested parties would care to scroll up some, you'll see who I said I would pick to keep.

Haley is everyone's whipping boy. I do not know if he deserves the amount of scorn he gets on here.

Why on earth has the team kept him for 6 years?


I think Haley can draw up some awfully interesting plays and it's very true that he changed the way Ben Roethlisberger plays.

Ben gets rid of the ball much quicker now but Haley struggles mightily as a play caller. I doubt seriously Tomlin overrules Haley in the middle of a game.

Tomlin is an idiot for sure, in that he seems to trust a defense that has struggled against the shittiest of the shitty.

But everyone knows that this team will only go as far as our offense takes us.

Anyone with a working brain, that is. Our defense gives up waaaaay too many big plays and they'll do the same if we face New England again.

We don't score 40 we're likely going to be toast. Haley doesn't call plays like he's looking to score 40,.
I think haley should be an offensive consultant, but stay off the sidelines.


I'd be interested to hear the discussions that Ben and Fitchner have during the game. SInce Fitchner has been a play caller in college and also played DB in college, maybe he is helping Ben with recognition of what they discussed in meetings during the week. Ben mentioned on the radio today that he spends most of his time with Fitchner and the back up QBs during the week. When Batch was still around he would always go right to him when he came off the field. Maybe Fitchner is the new Batch for Ben.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
Ice wrote:
Pretty sure that's what they've been trying to do, Cor.


I love that his professional life mimics his cuckholded personal one


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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