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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:48 pm 
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KC wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Ice wrote:
Also, in regards to Haley "designing an offensive plan not to get Ben killed," which I think is one of the more easily debunked myths of his tenure, wouldn't drastically improving the offensive line and strengthening the running game have at least 2/3 of the effect on that score?


I think as the o line has improved, the quick release play calling has lessened.

Haley no longer needs to keep Ben upright because of the o line's stellar play.

Am I supposed to give Munchak more credit than Haley for producing four of the six top scoring offenses in the team's history?


...and when we go into New England and get our asses kicked again, because Haley called a draw to Fitz and put the offense in give up mode against the Pats, WE WILL HAVE SHIT TO SHOW FOR THOSE HIGH SCORING SEASONS.


I think the turtling is possibly Tomlin mandated or approved.

And if all interested parties would care to scroll up some, you'll see who I said I would pick to keep.

Haley is everyone's whipping boy. I do not know if he deserves the amount of scorn he gets on here.

Why on earth has the team kept him for 6 years?

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:50 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Haley's contract expires at the end of this season and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that Ben returning is tied to Haley returning... in the inverse.


I've heard similar speculation.

Still, let's not run Haley out of town on a rail.

We could have had far worse.

Four out of the top six scoring seasons all in the last four years.

I hope we do not have a bad case of the grass being greener...

Either Haley or Fichnter.

Maybe Haley stays and Fichtner is given play-calling duties.


Lit, while I tend to agree with you on your Tomlin and turtling comment, I wonder if the bolded above comment is more a combination of the Steelers having a top three O Line and a top three QB (not sure that's happened in along time - if ever), coupled with a league that's hell-bent on getting scores higher. I can certainly see how those variables could play a larger role than Haley has over the last few years offensive success.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:54 pm 
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DP39 wrote:
Lit, while I tend to agree with you on your Tomlin and turtling comment, I wonder if the bolded above comment is more a combination of the Steelers having a top three O Line and a top three QB (not sure that's happened in along time - if ever), coupled with a league that's hell-bent on getting scores higher. I can certainly see how those variables could play a larger role than Haley has over the last few years offensive success.


I think Ice and COR TEN are right that the Munchak and Bell made the offense explode. It does not follow that Haley's play designs and / or play calls had less than half to do with it. It does not follow that Haley did not have less than half to do with it, either, of course.

But why has Tomlin kept him for 6 frigging years if he is so demonstrably awful?

Easiest dude to beat up on is the OC.

Not taking a side, really, just trying to push back and see what sticks.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:55 pm 
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This is what worries the shit out of me about our issues with NE. It isn’t talent. It’s become a complex that Tomlin is obsessed with and cannot conquer. Playing them in our house was the X factor in getting back to the Super Bowl and we screwed it away.

A lot needs to happen before the “rematch” but I’m not confident at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:59 pm 
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Also, and lest anyone hasn’t been paying attention, this is as wide open and good as a chance to get a ring as I can remember in the Ben era.

Matt Ryan
Cam Newton
Jared Goff
Case Keenam
Nick Foles
Drew Brees
Alex Smith
Marcus Mariota
Tyrod Taylor
Blake Bortles
Tom Brady
The Grey

There is one QB on there that scares me in a shootout. Maybe two if you throw in Brees playing in a dome. I’ll stretch to 3 if Goff can keep playing as he has. Otherwise that’s it.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 2:59 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
But why has Tomlin kept him for 6 frigging years if he is so demonstrably awful?
I'm guessing it's because of who was/ is available, offensive strategy alignment, and consistency in BR's later years.

Seeing Haley as persona non grata in the last two games tells me the offense is clicking despite him. When you see BR, Tomlin, and Fitch talk on the side lines while Haley is hiding behind the play sheet a couple of yards away. . .

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:01 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:
This is what worries the shit out of me about our issues with NE. It isn’t talent. It’s become a complex that Tomlin is obsessed with and cannot conquer. Playing them in our house was the X factor in getting back to the Super Bowl and we screwed it away.

A lot needs to happen before the “rematch” but I’m not confident at all.


If Tomlin did not learn to make Haley keep his foot on the gas, he never will.

I simply do not believe Mike Tomlin is in fact that stupid. It would be totally mystifying.

If the Steelers actually make it to the AFCCG and should it be in the Pats' house and the Steelers end up with a 7 or 10 point lead in Q4 and go into turtle mode, I will lose my mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:03 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
But why has Tomlin kept him for 6 frigging years if he is so demonstrably awful?
I'm guessing it's because of who was/ is available, offensive strategy alignment, and consistency in BR's later years.

Seeing Haley as persona non grata in the last two games tells me the offense is clicking despite him. When you see BR, Tomlin, and Fitch talk on the side lines while Haley is hiding behind the play sheet a couple of yards away. . .


This proposition: "the offense is clicking despite him"

Does not have to follow from this proposition: "Seeing Haley as persona non grata in the last two games"

Furthermore, it is unclear that one must accept that Haley is persona non grata, either.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:05 pm 
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Orangesteel wrote:
This is what worries the shit out of me about our issues with NE. It isn’t talent. It’s become a complex that Tomlin is obsessed with and cannot conquer. Playing them in our house was the X factor in getting back to the Super Bowl and we screwed it away.

A lot needs to happen before the “rematch” but I’m not confident at all.

You're projecting.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
I think the turtling is possibly Tomlin mandated or approved.

And if all interested parties would care to scroll up some, you'll see who I said I would pick to keep.

Haley is everyone's whipping boy. I do not know if he deserves the amount of scorn he gets on here.

Why on earth has the team kept him for 6 years?


I think Haley can draw up some awfully interesting plays and it's very true that he changed the way Ben Roethlisberger plays.

Ben gets rid of the ball much quicker now but Haley struggles mightily as a play caller. I doubt seriously Tomlin overrules Haley in the middle of a game.

Tomlin is an idiot for sure, in that he seems to trust a defense that has struggled against the shittiest of the shitty.

But everyone knows that this team will only go as far as our offense takes us.

Anyone with a working brain, that is. Our defense gives up waaaaay too many big plays and they'll do the same if we face New England again.

We don't score 40 we're likely going to be toast. Haley doesn't call plays like he's looking to score 40,.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:10 pm 
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KC wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
I think the turtling is possibly Tomlin mandated or approved.

And if all interested parties would care to scroll up some, you'll see who I said I would pick to keep.

Haley is everyone's whipping boy. I do not know if he deserves the amount of scorn he gets on here.

Why on earth has the team kept him for 6 years?


I think Haley can draw up some awfully interesting plays and it's very true that he changed the way Ben Roethlisberger plays.

Ben gets rid of the ball much quicker now but Haley struggles mightily as a play caller. I doubt seriously Tomlin overrules Haley in the middle of a game.

Tomlin is an idiot for sure, in that he seems to trust a defense that has struggled against the shittiest of the shitty.

But everyone knows that this team will only go as far as our offense takes us.

Anyone with a working brain, that is. Our defense gives up waaaaay too many big plays and they'll do the same if we face New England again.

We don't score 40 we're likely going to be toast. Haley doesn't call plays like he's looking to score 40,.
I think haley should be an offensive consultant, but stay off the sidelines.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:20 pm 
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Pretty sure that's what they've been trying to do, Cor.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:21 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Pretty sure that's what they've been trying to do, Cor.


I love that his professional life mimics his cuckholded personal one


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:25 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
KC wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
I think the turtling is possibly Tomlin mandated or approved.

And if all interested parties would care to scroll up some, you'll see who I said I would pick to keep.

Haley is everyone's whipping boy. I do not know if he deserves the amount of scorn he gets on here.

Why on earth has the team kept him for 6 years?


I think Haley can draw up some awfully interesting plays and it's very true that he changed the way Ben Roethlisberger plays.

Ben gets rid of the ball much quicker now but Haley struggles mightily as a play caller. I doubt seriously Tomlin overrules Haley in the middle of a game.

Tomlin is an idiot for sure, in that he seems to trust a defense that has struggled against the shittiest of the shitty.

But everyone knows that this team will only go as far as our offense takes us.

Anyone with a working brain, that is. Our defense gives up waaaaay too many big plays and they'll do the same if we face New England again.

We don't score 40 we're likely going to be toast. Haley doesn't call plays like he's looking to score 40,.
I think haley should be an offensive consultant, but stay off the sidelines.


I'd be interested to hear the discussions that Ben and Fitchner have during the game. SInce Fitchner has been a play caller in college and also played DB in college, maybe he is helping Ben with recognition of what they discussed in meetings during the week. Ben mentioned on the radio today that he spends most of his time with Fitchner and the back up QBs during the week. When Batch was still around he would always go right to him when he came off the field. Maybe Fitchner is the new Batch for Ben.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
Ice wrote:
Pretty sure that's what they've been trying to do, Cor.


I love that his professional life mimics his cuckholded personal one


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:38 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
Ice wrote:
Pretty sure that's what they've been trying to do, Cor.


I love that his professional life mimics his cuckholded personal one


But he was just watching the ball drop, then BAM!!!! :P

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:43 pm 
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Haley can fucking kick rocks. This is the best Steelers OL I can remember watching.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:54 pm 
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I think many here are vastly underestimating Mike Munchak's role in the improved offense.

Todd Haley has in the past, been designated as a Passing Game coordinator, as in his time with Dallas. He coached the WRs and developed the passing game.

In his time in Arizona, he was officially the offensive coordinator but Whisenhut called the plays until very late in the season of 2007. So, Todd was the OC for two years but called the plays only one of those seasons.

Here in Pittsburgh, the offense was sort of not really doing all that well Haley's first two years, we were 8-8 for those first two season under Haley as the OC. Points scored we were 22nd, 16th, yards we were 20th, 21st.

Mike Munchak being hired and him being able to not just develop the offensive line, but to bring expertise in how to develop a running game was so, so crucial. This was outside of Haley's wheelhouse, he needed help and nobody is better at doing that then Munchak.

It seems to me that Todd Haley has needed help at every NFL team that he has ever coached at. Whether it was being just a Passing Game coordinator with Dallas, having Whisenhut hold his hand and call plays for him until he thought he was ready, or bringing in a Munchak to get the running game polished and working, Haley has never proven to be able to do it all alone.

It is ludicrous to see some other sites and media types give him so much credit. You take away Munchak and Randy Fitchner and Richard Mann and this offense is not the same. Take away Haley, keep Munchak, promote Fitchner and move Charlie Batch into Fitchner's vacant QB coach position and the offense does not miss a beat. That is how expendable Todd Haley truly is.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:51 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
If Haley leaves, do we get to keep his play designs?

Saw this on Depot: four of the top six scoring seasons in franchise history have come over the past four years.

Fun to throw tomatoes at Haley, but that is impressive.


That QB, #7, is pretty good.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:35 am 
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Hinestuff wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
If Haley leaves, do we get to keep his play designs?

Saw this on Depot: four of the top six scoring seasons in franchise history have come over the past four years.

Fun to throw tomatoes at Haley, but that is impressive.


That QB, #7, is pretty good.


Now, see, what you meant write was that although our hall of fame QB is pretty good, for some reason we did not have four out of the six top scoring seasons until after Haley showed up.

And if you wanted to put pressure on my position you would point to Munchak being hired or Bell being drafted during these scoring runs.

But instead you just posted that Ben is pretty good.

What Scunge says may hit the nail on the head.

Still, 6 years is a long time to put up with an albatross.

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:29 am 
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But Lit how many of those top scoring seasons happened with Haley without Mike Munchak?

Oh, that is right! All of them happened with Mike Munchak! Mike Munchak is hired to coach the O-line, the running game takes off with Bell and the offense takes off too.

I would argue that does not happen if Munchak IS NOT hired.

And yet how often do we see the offense come up small in big moments when it matters the most?

Somebody the other day was extolling the virtues of Boz's playoff production, to me that is something to be ashamed of if you are an OC. No kicker should be kicking 6 FGs in a playoff game because the offense can't score touchdowns.

Haley is holding this team back, holding this offense back. The offense accomplishes what it does in spite of Haley not because of him. That is my story and I am sticking to it!!

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:37 am 
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Spot on scunge

Now will Haley fight being put in the booth?

To me he can observe the coverages better than sidelines and make better informed calls to Ben

I think his ego is so overblown that he doesn’t want to improve

But fool me once fool me twice. Just let Ben run it......we see the results with Fitchner being more involved

Unshackle this beast further

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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:41 am 
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Hopefully Munch stays. Hate to lose him but I understand should he decide to leave. Arizona/Steelers West at it again. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:00 am 
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Scunge wrote:
But Lit how many of those top scoring seasons happened with Haley without Mike Munchak?

Oh, that is right! All of them happened with Mike Munchak! Mike Munchak is hired to coach the O-line, the running game takes off with Bell and the offense takes off too.

I would argue that does not happen if Munchak IS NOT hired.

And yet how often do we see the offense come up small in big moments when it matters the most?

Somebody the other day was extolling the virtues of Boz's playoff production, to me that is something to be ashamed of if you are an OC. No kicker should be kicking 6 FGs in a playoff game because the offense can't score touchdowns.

Haley is holding this team back, holding this offense back. The offense accomplishes what it does in spite of Haley not because of him. That is my story and I am sticking to it!!


Ding Ding! We have a winner! Looking @ how much talent is on this team offensively to consistently be middle of the pack in terms of scoring is an abomination. To be consistently be on the lower end of the league in RZ production is an abomination and this falls @ the feet of one Todd Haley.


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 Post subject: Re: Munchak or Haley the greater loss
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:06 am 
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I don't think Munchak would have a broken hip if he got shoved outside a bar. The guy who shoved him might.


Last edited by blu on Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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