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 Post subject: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:09 am 
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It concerns me greatly that the Steelers appear to be high on Carl Lawson. as an auburn guy, i watched this guy's entire body of work at auburn. He is nothing more than a great big tease. He is, at best, another Corey Lemonier. Yeah. remember him?? He flashed signs of being a pass rusher in college too. I think CL was a 3rd round pick IIRC. he may still be in the league, but he hasn't really done jack shit. Carl Lawson isn't anywhere near the player Dee Ford was/is.

Yes, Carl Lawson. The one with the short arms...and the injury history...and the unwillingness or inability to set the edge as a run defender (despite his alleged "violent hands")...and the lack of timely/impact plays. Carl Lawson reminds me of that fucker the Steelers drafted out of UCLA a few years back. can't recall his name right now.

BTW, I have a very similar opinion of Bama's Tim Williams. I think both players are 100% fools gold.

Discuss.

I don't post much but I always enjoy this board at this time of year. fantastic input/insight into draft prospects. thanks to all who fill the board w/ useful info.

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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:01 pm 
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Lawson reminds me of Jarvis Jones( but with shorter arms) in the fact that his combine numbers just suck for someone who has looked explosive on film. JJ even had a better 3-cone that Lawson.

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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:17 pm 
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Lassen's numbers were OK speed wise, except for the glaring problem three cone

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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:24 pm 
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Bruce Davis....that was that fucker's name. what a sad joke of a football player he was.....

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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:27 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
Lawson reminds me of Jarvis Jones( but with shorter arms) in the fact that his combine numbers just suck for someone who has looked explosive on film. JJ even had a better 3-cone that Lawson.



"When I evaluate an edge rusher," Mike Tomlin said, in rather a scornful tone, "a 3-cone time means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."

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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:42 pm 
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SteelyourFace wrote:
jebrick wrote:
Lawson reminds me of Jarvis Jones( but with shorter arms) in the fact that his combine numbers just suck for someone who has looked explosive on film. JJ even had a better 3-cone that Lawson.



"When I evaluate an edge rusher," Mike Tomlin said, in rather a scornful tone, "a 3-cone time means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."

What??? Did he really say this? :lol:
When Tomlin's time as a football coach ends, he can make nice living selling used cars.

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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:56 pm 
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SteelyourFace wrote:
jebrick wrote:
Lawson reminds me of Jarvis Jones( but with shorter arms) in the fact that his combine numbers just suck for someone who has looked explosive on film. JJ even had a better 3-cone that Lawson.



"When I evaluate an edge rusher," Mike Tomlin said, in rather a scornful tone, "a 3-cone time means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."


But after the JJ pick, Tomlin has looked for SPARQ monsters. That is why Bowser and Willis are at the top of my list for Steeler EDGE picks in the 1st.

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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:10 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
SteelyourFace wrote:
jebrick wrote:
Lawson reminds me of Jarvis Jones( but with shorter arms) in the fact that his combine numbers just suck for someone who has looked explosive on film. JJ even had a better 3-cone that Lawson.



"When I evaluate an edge rusher," Mike Tomlin said, in rather a scornful tone, "a 3-cone time means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."


But after the JJ pick, Tomlin has looked for SPARQ monsters. That is why Bowser and Willis are at the top of my list for Steeler EDGE picks in the 1st.


Seeing as Tomlin nor Colbert attended either guy's pro day I don't think they feel the same way. But I agree. I think Lawson sucks.

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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:43 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
SteelyourFace wrote:
jebrick wrote:
Lawson reminds me of Jarvis Jones( but with shorter arms) in the fact that his combine numbers just suck for someone who has looked explosive on film. JJ even had a better 3-cone that Lawson.



"When I evaluate an edge rusher," Mike Tomlin said, in rather a scornful tone, "a 3-cone time means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."


But after the JJ pick, Tomlin has looked for SPARQ monsters. That is why Bowser and Willis are at the top of my list for Steeler EDGE picks in the 1st.

IMO, neither Bowser or Willis are round one talents. They may both be have decent careers, but neither is the difference maker the Steelers would need at OLB.

Oh...and I agree about Lawson and Williams. Especially Williams!

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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:31 pm 
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Jobus Rum wrote:
IMO, neither Bowser or Willis are round one talents. They may both be have decent careers, but neither is the difference maker the Steelers would need at OLB.

Oh...and I agree about Lawson and Williams. Especially Williams!

You're based the bolded on what, exactly? Those two guys are studs, with production, great tape, and outlier athleticism/power.

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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:31 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Jobus Rum wrote:
IMO, neither Bowser or Willis are round one talents. They may both be have decent careers, but neither is the difference maker the Steelers would need at OLB.

Oh...and I agree about Lawson and Williams. Especially Williams!

You're based the bolded on what, exactly? Those two guys are studs, with production, great tape, and outlier athleticism/power.


McShay does not think they are first rounders :P

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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:56 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Jobus Rum wrote:
IMO, neither Bowser or Willis are round one talents. They may both be have decent careers, but neither is the difference maker the Steelers would need at OLB.

Oh...and I agree about Lawson and Williams. Especially Williams!

You're based the bolded on what, exactly? Those two guys are studs, with production, great tape, and outlier athleticism/power.

I'm Todd McShay! :mrgreen:
Just my opinion based on watching games. Once again, I don't study this stuff like some of you guys, but I do watch a lot of college football games. I don't think either guy will be a "stud" at the next level. I could be wrong, time will tell.

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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:17 pm 
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I don't want Tak or Lawson....busts.


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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:28 pm 
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I forgot Joe Mathis. I'd take him, especially as a double dip. He seems a little crazy, which after having Deebo for years, works for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:36 pm 
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YES!! Finally, somebody else who is not overly impressed with some of these edge rushers. I will take it even further. As a whole group I find this class of edge rushers to be vastly over-rated. The need is great and I think teams and the media are elevating and pushing these players into high round consideration that don't deserve to be.

My signature is so negative because I believe that as long as the Steelers have this mentality that they can fix the OLB position by using 1st round picks, that as long as they keep forcing the issue, they will continue to fail. It just does not work that way. Bud Dupree was a first rounder in 2015, but the 3 second round draft picks in that class by Washington, Arizona and Seattle, the three pass rushers that they took all have more sacks than Bud Dupree (and Shane Ray). So, I don't buy the argument that you have to draft an OLB in the first round to find a double digit sack man.

There are so many ways to go in the first round besides OLB, that can improve this team immensely. Draft a CB. Kevin King would be a starter day one opposite of Artie Burns. Tre White would be the starting nickel back day one as well and could start outside. They could trade back, say pick up an extra 3rd and still draft a starting CB. CB is where the real talent is in this draft.

They could draft Timmons replacement. Vince Williams is not the answer, and is not even a good stop gap and as I point out all the time, he is not even that young. People made a big issue of Timmons age but Williams turns 28 in December. If Jarrad Davis is there at 30, we could draft him and have an excellent player to pair with Shazier.

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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:08 pm 
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Here's this edge class in a nutshell:

The first two guys are no-brainers, could go in either order, at worst going to be great players.

Then there's Barnett-- proven results and movement skills-- more polished than some who follow. I truly believe Willis in in this same class. A little better athlete and more well-rounded player than Barnett, a little less polished.

Bowser is a different flavor entirely, but of the same pedigree. If you want your outside backer to be more able to play coverage at times, Bowser is definitely worth a late 1st. Think of him as solving two problems at once.

That is it for guys that look good to me at 1.30.

If Joe Mathis works out like LaMarr Woodley at his private workout just before the draft, I could live with that choice, even at 1.30. He's probably a late 2nd guy, which isn't all bad. Derek Rivers is also a 2nd round or mid 3rd guy and I like him at that price.

Watt is an outlier athlete, to be sure, but he's raw as can be... Maybe more suited to be a 4-3 OB guy. Harris can move but isn't a great athlete and is definitely better suited to be a 4-3 OB blitzer. Someone could talk me into Lawson, but he's a 4-3 DE to me. I couldn't get too excited by any of these choices. I'm not a fan of Takk but he is young and was playing hurt. Best I can say about him.

Beyond that, Biegel is a really good player but maybe not an alpha guy. Taumoepenu is a dominant speed rusher that I would pair with Bowser in a heartbeat, since you could mix it up with Bowser in coverage in a nickel package where Pita comes in as a stunt rusher.

Ejuan Price would be a decent #3 or #4 guy. Johnathan Calvin is way way way underrated. Hunter Dimick is a little overaged and tight, but he would be good depth. Samson Ebukam and Jevancy Jones might work in a pinch.

The rest--- blah.

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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:01 am 
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The more I read, watch, and see I'm thinking best option in the first will be cornerback, then a OLB in the 2nd. WR and RB at 3 and 3a, then another OLB in the 4th.


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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:07 am 
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cop1211 wrote:
The more I read, watch, and see I'm thinking best option in the first will be cornerback, then a OLB in the 2nd. WR and RB at 3 and 3a, then another OLB in the 4th.

It's kind of why I have no major problems with QB in 1st-- I'd almost rather on a great player than to use a 3rd rounder on a scrub who will be out of the league in three years or less. I think the three best edge guys are all going to be gone before we pick, and the second tier of 2-3 will almost surely be gone before we pick in rd 2. A terrific year for a trade down, but they never, ever, ever, ever do.

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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:02 am 
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cop1211 wrote:
The more I read, watch, and see I'm thinking best option in the first will be cornerback, then a OLB in the 2nd. WR and RB at 3 and 3a, then another OLB in the 4th.


I would be very cool with that. I just want to see us spend two of those first 4 picks on offense, I don't care the order.

Two of my dark horse favorites in the first round are WR Corey Davis and TE Davis Njoku.

In the second round my dark horse favorites are WR Chris Godwin and TE Gerald Everett.

Just imagine for a second, just entertain the thought of the Steelers going offense with the first two picks.

Imagine how much better this offense would be if we spent the first and second on WR Davis and TE Everett, or TE Njoku and WR Godwin.

Then with picks 3, 3 and 4 you go defense. I think the depth is such at CB, S and LBer that you can find gems in these rounds.

I just think that the offense needs a shot in the arm, yes, we have Bell and Brown but you can't just pin all of your hopes on them, the offense is stagnant and not developing like it should. Sorry but when you kick 6 FGs in a playoff game something is seriously wrong.

B2B, I know we almost never trade down but maybe Colbert makes an exception is this case. We did trade down with the NY Jets in 2001 when we traded back and picked up 4th and 6th round picks and then chose Casey Hampton. Those picks ending up being Mathias Nkwenti and Rodney Bailey, yikes!! Colbert has done it before but maybe one of the things that they don't like to do is trade completely out of the first round. They do love their 5th year options on their first round picks.

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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:29 am 
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I mean, when you're at 30, almost any trade is out of the 1st round.

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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:26 am 
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I would love to see them draft a pass rusher that will complement Dupree. I'd be willing to spend a 1st or 2nd RND pick at OLB. I would love to see them replace Timmons in the middle. As much as I love VWill I believe he is a stop-gap at this point. Also I would be willing to spend a 1st or 2nd RND for ILB. Of course it all comes down to who is available at both the 30 and 62 picks. If the offense needs a shot in the arm as everyone claims I look to add someone in the 3rd RND. As much as they need secondary I beleive this year's draft to be fairly deep at both safety and corner. That said, dependant on who is available [in my perfect world]... I spend one of the 3rd's and the 4th RND pick to address the secondary.


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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:06 pm 
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Excellent discussion and a good read. Thanks for your inputs to have to dissect.

I would be on board with King as the pick at #30. Most of the players I want all seem to be slated to go between 30 & 62. A move back to gain a pick and another move up seems like a way to load us up. But hey, its the draft. They way it seems to be predicted at this point, it may be a good option to go QB. But its almost Mahomes or no one for me too. And the way its going, the Browns just might shock the world and take him #1 by draft day.

It seems like MOST years the position whose top (#1) player that still could be around at #30 is Safety, Tight End and the past few years possibly RB. Zeke last year may have changed the trend with RB. It appears by all the prediction a TE or two could go before #30.. Is there a chance that the #1 or #2 safety will still be available at #30? If there is, is that a way the Steelers should go? I haven't heard much love for Safety at #30. Too high??? How about that kid Obl Melifonwu? Read a bit on him and he seems like hes thought to be a play-maker. Is that completely out of the question???

There were some pundits predicting WR for the Steelers in the first. John Ross I think, which I thought was out of the question, but that would be ideal based on Scunges thoughts.

#1 - John Ross
#2 - Willis
#3 - Someone like a Howard Wilson
#3B - Safety, RB or TE like Kittle/Shaheen

That could be sweet right???


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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:17 am 
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I have been banging the drum for some time this offseason that we need to add pieces to the offense. I don't think we are 'set' on offense. Some may agree, disagree but I just think you are making a huge mistake crossing your fingers and hoping that:

1. Bryant is reinstated.
2. That Bryant does not screw up again.
3. That Green finally get cleared to play again and that...
4. ...he has no further concussions. Didn't he have two concussions his last year in SD and then he immediately gets one after 6 games with us? So, what is that, 3 concussions in a 15 month span?
5. That Fitz and Knile Davis can replace DeAngelo Williams.
6. That the injury to Coates hand does not linger. Did he have surgery to fix it or not? And what about the groin injury?
7. The injury to Heyward-Bey last season was really the first time he had dealt with that. He is at that 30 year old threshold where players just start to accumulate injuries and have trouble staying healthy, see DeAngelo Williams.

I am sorry, but that is way too many ifs for me. The Steelers should do more than just spend a late 3rd round pick on a RB, or a 5th or 6th round pick on a WR. What good is that going to do?

We just don't need depth, we need starters at TE, at WR that can have an impact, that can get this offense to be truly explosive, and score more points. I am not really that big a fan of either Ross or Mike Williams at WR in this draft. My guy is Corey Davis. To me he has the more well rounded game, can do it all. 6'3" 210 and even though he hasn't been able to run and test, I think he is a 4.45 40 guy speed wise.

The thing is, Davis not being able to work out may create a Heath Miller situation for us. Miller had the sports hernia thing and dropped in the draft. There he was at pick 30 and we were able to take the best TE prospect, the #1 TE in the draft. So, here we are picking with that 30th spot again, and I have to believe that the Steelers probably have Davis ranked as the #1 WR prospect. If he is there, why shouldn't he be the choice? Why not take the BPA? Sort of a back to the future moment for me. Why spend that first rounder on an OLB when that remaining player at the top of the OLB list is probably the 5th or 6th best OLB prospect? When you do that you are beginning to force the issue, to reach.

Then I hear people proclaim that what if Bryant does stay clean and starts, you just wasted a 1st round pick on a WR that you didn't need to. What? Are you telling me that a WR trio of Bryant, Corey Davis and Antonio Brown would be a bad thing? That 3rd WR usually plays 65-70% of the time, they are nearly a starter anyway. Besides, does anybody think Bryant is going to be in Pittsburgh when his rookie contract plays out? I don't.

Same situation with TE, if we drafted the kid out of Miami with the first round pick and Green somehow is able to play, so what? How is that a problem? It just means the offense is going to be that much better, that much more dangerous. And if, probably just a matter of when Green gets another concussion then we still have a stud pass catcher.

Spending that first round pick on a WR or a TE can have an immediate impact for this team, just as much as spending that pick on an OLB or CB.

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 Post subject: Re: Carl Lawson = Corey Lemonier
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:07 pm 
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This is a draft where you can get a move TE and a #2-4 WR literally as UDFAs. Soooooo deep at those two positions.

My biggest fear is that they will utterly waste a pick on a RB before day 3. When looking for a complementary/backup role player, there's zero need to spend a premium pick.

The skinniest stuff in this draft-- ILB, CB, & Edge rusher. Pick those early.

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