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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:03 pm 
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steel wrote:
hopalong wrote:
Force the play and Hope. No harm, no foul. Staying there was not the play, at least prompt the throw.


Given the circumstances, that seemed to be what they should have at least tried


Pabst wrote:
First, the Giants are in perfect position to play the ball in from the outfield: Crawford is taking the throw, Panik is in the cutoff spot between 3rd base and the mound. Bumgarner is backing up the throw home.

Gordon has his back to the play, so he can't know where the ball is. Given that, he can't possibly know how big of a turn he can make on 3rd. If Gordon makes the turn and the ball is cutoff, he's in alot of trouble. Even if Crawford throws home and the ball gets by Posey, there is a backup down there. In your scenario, Gordon won't be running at full speed, so it would take an incredible misfire for him to advance home. Plus, how many times have we seen a runner slip and fall when trying to quickly reverse course on a basepath?

Forcing the throw creates more problems for the baserunner than it does for the guys in the field. The 3rd base coach made the right call - no way around it.

Pabst wrote:
If Gordon slows down to stop at third and then fakes toward home, the ball would more than likely go to the cut-off man, not to the plate.
I don't see how Gordon could make the turn at full speed then stop because:
1. He can't see the play, so he would have no idea whether this is possible. For all he knows, the throw is coming into 3rd.
2. The 3rd base coach couldn't communicate for him to bluff running home because of the crowd noise. Even if he did, Sandoval would likely hear him at third base and yell for Panik to cut off the throw

Just because we know they ended up losing the game doesn't mean they should have attempted such a high risk play.

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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:06 pm 
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I have a chance, you don't!


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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:36 pm 
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From a KC message board:

Quote:
royalhead # 45802.11(11 of 53) Replied to: thebeefster12:35 AM

I had lower level seats in the left field so had a very good view of the play.
I thought it was a terrible decision to hold Gordon and was pretty mad right after. Salvy is just not a clutch hit, minus the A'S final at bat.
NOBODY hear can say Gordon would have been safe or out, as it would have been a very close play. However our odds were much higher with that play than anything else. Score there and we are done with MB.
I think part of it was Gordon was shocked he was still running. Just a lesson to always run as fast as you can out of the box. Definitely not his fault though

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coach10 # 45802.13(13 of 53) Replied to: thebeefster12:38 AM

Crawford catches the relay at the same time Gordon gets to third. Chances are Gordon gets thrown out at home but it would take a good throw, good catch, and a good tag and remember Posey can't block the plate. I agree the best chance at that point of the game would be send him and see what happens.

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nwbearcat5 # 45802.14(14 of 53) Replied to: coach1012:41 AM

Can u imagine if he had sent him and he got thrown out by 10 feet. The crowd may have hung him from a dugout suite. I agree that their was no way you could have sent him there.

http://forums.prospero.com/discussions/Kansas_City_Royals/General/JIRSCHELE_YOU_CAN_NOT_STOP_GORDON_AT_THIRD_BASE_ON_THAT_HIT/ml-royals/45802.1?nav=messages

(Ugh --- perusing other sports teams' fan sites makes me reeeeeally appreciate our SFury home here 8-) )


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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:16 pm 
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Iron_City wrote:
is the only thing people know how to do around here is bitch about coaching?

They were facing the best post season pitching performance in the history of major league baseball. Babe Ruth never faced that kind of pitching.

Ned Yost took a team that nobody gave a chance to the 7th game of the World Series and dominated the entire postseason till that point. Nobody called him an idiot when he got his team ready for a 10-0 game 6 curb stomp.

So if we must compare him to Hurdle, I take it as a complement if I'm Clint


Sure he did. He faced possibly the greatest pitcher of all-time, Walter Johnson.

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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:38 pm 
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Obviously wrote:
Iron_City wrote:
is the only thing people know how to do around here is bitch about coaching?

They were facing the best post season pitching performance in the history of major league baseball. Babe Ruth never faced that kind of pitching.

Ned Yost took a team that nobody gave a chance to the 7th game of the World Series and dominated the entire postseason till that point. Nobody called him an idiot when he got his team ready for a 10-0 game 6 curb stomp.

So if we must compare him to Hurdle, I take it as a complement if I'm Clint


Sure he did. He faced possibly the greatest pitcher of all-time, Walter Johnson.

And the Babe did another thing too:

Quote:
. . . and the (1926 World) Series ended when -- with Gehrig at the plate and the Yankees trailing by one run -- Ruth was caught trying to steal second base.

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/history/postseason/mlb_ws_recaps.jsp?feature=1926


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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:28 am 
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While I am on the side of not sending Gordon, small ball is not what got the Royals through to game 7 of the World Series.

Unbelievable bullpen pitching and timely hitting is what got them through.

In fact, one could make a case that small ball was hurting them...the ALWCG was one glaring case in point...they got the winning rally when they STOPPED bunting so much.

Steel is right about one thing in his opener...bunting Escobar was beyond stupid. You don't use your best hitters to bunt.

Jay Bell had a lifetime OBP of .343. One can make a case that all that sacrifice bunting Leyland had him do in the early 1990s HURT, not helped, the Bucs' run production. Aftwards, Bell became a decent RBI man when he had to swing away more after the big boppers left.

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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:43 am 
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IMO small ball isn't driving in a game tying triple with 2 out in game 7 of WS any more than a round tripper on a 3 base error

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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:37 am 
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franco>madden wrote:
Just to add to the mix, here's another view about a millisecond earlier --- Panik is still waiting to relay the incoming throw --- or will it go over his head straight through --- would he for sure be able to pivot and throw a strike in an extremely-pressure-filled moment, on a play already marred by several uncharacteristic Frisco flubs? (Remember how we all marveled with gratitude when Morneau pulled it off last year to clinch? Remember our misery as Gold-Glove Barry Bones 7-hopped it up the 1st-base line as Bream rounded 3rd? Not an automatic play is all I'm sayin')

MadBumFuk has been nearly unhittable since mowing down our hot Buccos 29 days ago --- including last night. The most unlikely scenario of all was that the Royals would be able to drive in that baserunner with 2 out already in the 9th. Here was at last a crazy, improbable, last-ditch chance to score --- Royals coach absolutely should have sent him IMO.

Image


Umm...this photo is so misleading. Panik was the second cut man, actually backing up the real cut incase it gets by Crawford. Crawford is 30 feet further in the outfield and is fielding the ball at the moment this pic was taken. Holding him was an easy decision. No way he scores unless Crawford makes an absolutely terrible relay throw home.

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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:20 pm 
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SteelPro wrote:
Umm...this photo is so misleading. Panik was the second cut man, actually backing up the real cut incase it gets by Crawford. Crawford is 30 feet further in the outfield and is fielding the ball at the moment this pic was taken. Holding him was an easy decision. No way he scores unless Crawford makes an absolutely terrible relay throw home.


Bingo. From Grant Brisbee's twitter:
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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:31 pm 
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Pabst & Pro -- I don't think we are in any disagreement on the facts and physics of the scenario . . .

Moments earlier I'm guessing we all would have agreed there was no way a decent but definitely not speedy Gordon would get all the way to 3rd base on a medium-deep fly to left, but he did --- thanks to not one but several fielding gaffes by the generally stellar Giants outfielders --- sometimes the improbable happens.
You said no way does he score unless the throw (or tag, I would add) is bad, and I'm saying, agreed --- and yet that slim possibility was greater IMO than the possibility that the Royals would ever score again, down to their final out, in the last of the 9th inning of Game 7, with the next (injured) KC batter facing the most monsterously dominant postseason pitching performance since, ever? (during which MB had destroyed every team he faced since shutting down our Pirates October 1st).
By the way I'm not on the "coach was an idiot" wagon, just having interweb - sports talk fun thinking about the what-ifs. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:50 pm 
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franco>madden wrote:
and yet that slim possibility was greater IMO than the possibility that the Royals would ever score again, down to their final out, in the last of the 9th inning of Game 7, with the next (injured) KC batter facing the most monsterously dominant postseason pitching performance since, ever? (during which MB had destroyed every team he faced since shutting down our Pirates October 1st).


This is the part i disagree with. From what I see, Gordon's chances at scoring from 3rd are almost non-existent. That said, Perez was 2 for 6 off of Bumgarner heading into Game 7, and that included a Home Run. We don't know how much the HBP had actually hurt Perez, and that's really tough to quantify. But Perez was actually the one player to have some success off of Bumgarner in the World Series.

I take a chance with the batter rather that an almost sure-fire out at the plate.

franco>madden wrote:
By the way I'm not on the "coach was an idiot" wagon, just having interweb - sports talk fun thinking about the what-ifs. ;)


Yep - i enjoy the debate :)

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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:51 pm 
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Iron_City wrote:
any wise old baseball mind will probably tell you that you never make the last out at home in the bottom of the 9th down a run in game 7 of the world series

One wouldn't even need to be very old, or very wise.

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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:16 pm 
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Iron_City wrote:
any wise old baseball mind will probably tell you that you never make the last out at home in the bottom of the 9th down a run in game 7 of the world series


Any wise old baseball man would tell you that you are wrong. Nothing wrong with taking a chance to score a game tying or winning run at the plate if it is a reasonable shot. The average major league hitter gets a hit just 25% of the time. Factor in the chance of a wild pitch, or error, or something fluky like that and your chances climb to around 30% for getting that run home from 3rd with 2 outs. That is with an average hitter and an average pitcher on the mound, but you get the idea. So teams are generally very aggressive in sending runners home with 2 outs late in games. The problem with this situation for the Royals was that it wasn't a reasonable shot at scoring. Crawford would have needed to make a horrible throw for Gordon to score. I'd say the chances Gordon would have scored were around 5% at best if they had sent him.

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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:08 pm 
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You don't send him till you see where the throw goes, he goes 6 feet and looks, just force the throw. Not that hard.


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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:21 pm 
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Iron_City wrote:
is the only thing people know how to do around here is bitch about coaching?

They were facing the best post season pitching performance in the history of major league baseball. Babe Ruth never faced that kind of pitching.

Ned Yost took a team that nobody gave a chance to the 7th game of the World Series and dominated the entire postseason till that point. Nobody called him an idiot when he got his team ready for a 10-0 game 6 curb stomp.

So if we must compare him to Hurdle, I take it as a complement if I'm Clint


Babe Ruth faced better pitching at points
Facing a great pitcher is a good reason to take that kind of chance
All that said -- it looked to me like 3b coach made the right call.

Now, the bunt is a whole 'nutha story
Do not compare Yost to Hurdle though -- unfair to Yost.


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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:23 pm 
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Iron_City wrote:
any wise old baseball mind will probably tell you that you never make the last out at home in the bottom of the 9th down a run in game 7 of the world series


that would be never make the first out at 3rd -- remember bobby bonilla
the last out at home has nothing to do about nothing


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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:24 pm 
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Gonzo wrote:
Iron_City wrote:
is the only thing people know how to do around here is bitch about coaching?

They were facing the best post season pitching performance in the history of major league baseball. Babe Ruth never faced that kind of pitching.

Ned Yost took a team that nobody gave a chance to the 7th game of the World Series and dominated the entire postseason till that point. Nobody called him an idiot when he got his team ready for a 10-0 game 6 curb stomp.

So if we must compare him to Hurdle, I take it as a complement if I'm Clint


Babe Ruth faced better pitching at points
Facing a great pitcher is a good reason to take that kind of chance
All that said -- it looked to me like 3b coach made the right call.

Now, the bunt is a whole 'nutha story
Do not compare Yost to Hurdle though -- unfair to Yost.



Did my eyes deceive me? Was Bumgarners WS performance one of, if not THE best ever?

Didn't they flash the stat?

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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 11:38 pm 
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Iron_City wrote:


Did my eyes deceive me? Was Bumgarners WS performance one of, if not THE best ever?

Didn't they flash the stat?


YES IT WAS!!

and that's why i would've waved that fucking runner home from 3rd -- and taken that 5% chance of scoring --

because MB was un-fucking hittable

I'm glad you're beginning to see it my way


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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:41 am 
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Iron_City wrote:
Gonzo wrote:
Iron_City wrote:
is the only thing people know how to do around here is bitch about coaching?

They were facing the best post season pitching performance in the history of major league baseball. Babe Ruth never faced that kind of pitching.

Ned Yost took a team that nobody gave a chance to the 7th game of the World Series and dominated the entire postseason till that point. Nobody called him an idiot when he got his team ready for a 10-0 game 6 curb stomp.

So if we must compare him to Hurdle, I take it as a complement if I'm Clint


Babe Ruth faced better pitching at points
Facing a great pitcher is a good reason to take that kind of chance
All that said -- it looked to me like 3b coach made the right call.

Now, the bunt is a whole 'nutha story
Do not compare Yost to Hurdle though -- unfair to Yost.



Did my eyes deceive me? Was Bumgarners WS performance one of, if not THE best ever?

Didn't they flash the stat?


That's what you got out of that ?
Irrelevant Analogy w/o context


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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:21 am 
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steel wrote:
Iron_City wrote:


Did my eyes deceive me? Was Bumgarners WS performance one of, if not THE best ever?

Didn't they flash the stat?


YES IT WAS!!

and that's why i would've waved that fucking runner home from 3rd -- and taken that 5% chance of scoring --

because MB was un-fucking hittable

I'm glad you're beginning to see it my way


He got Salvador Perez to end the game. Perez had two hits off of Bumgarner in the series including a home run. Perez's chances of bringing that run home were significantly higher than 5%.

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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 10:41 am 
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SteelPro wrote:
steel wrote:
Iron_City wrote:


Did my eyes deceive me? Was Bumgarners WS performance one of, if not THE best ever?

Didn't they flash the stat?


YES IT WAS!!

and that's why i would've waved that fucking runner home from 3rd -- and taken that 5% chance of scoring --

because MB was un-fucking hittable

I'm glad you're beginning to see it my way


He got Salvador Perez to end the game. Perez had two hits off of Bumgarner in the series including a home run. Perez's chances of bringing that run home were significantly higher than 5%.


And no one knows how badly he was hurt. I don't think it was all that much (I head on the radio last night a commentator suggest Eric Kratz should have been brought in to pinch hit. The way they were talking you would have thought Perez was missing a leg. Stoopid Phillies' fans. :) )

Definitely better to hope Perez got a hit than to send Gordon.

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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:47 am 
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Perez couldn't fucking walk -- he shouldn't have been hitting -- he was hurt badly by the pitch in the 2nd inning - in a normal game, he was OUT of there in the 2nd inning


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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:10 pm 
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steel wrote:
Perez couldn't fucking walk -- he shouldn't have been hitting -- he was hurt badly by the pitch in the 2nd inning - in a normal game, he was OUT of there in the 2nd inning



He caught 7 more innings after that and drove a ball to RF in his previous AB in the 7th against Bum. He would have gotten to first base if he found green in the OF. He would have made it around the bases if he put one in the seats. No pitcher is so unhittable to hold major league hitters to an .050 batting average.

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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:07 pm 
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Gonzo wrote:

That's what you got out of that ?
Irrelevant Analogy w/o context


What's irrelevant is you saying Ruth faced better pitching when it's a fact MB had best performance ever

How does it get better than the best ever? Or do you just like to be argumentative?

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 Post subject: Re: Idiot Ned Yost
PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:16 am 
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a pitching stat line is contextual
to extrapolate MB to what Babe Ruth may have faced is a meaningless analogy
argumentative is the pot calling the kettle black.
aside from your general don't criticize the coaches statement, the rest was wrong or irrelevant.


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