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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:36 pm 
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SteelPro wrote:
I do not hold the Pirates 100% at fault, nor do I 100% dismiss the advantages that 2 or 3 teams seemingly have by the economics of the sport. But I believe these advantages are significantly overrated. For every big time free agent signing that works out there are 2 that turn out to be complete albatrosses. Signing big time free agents is a suckers game. But the Pirates deserve a lot of criticism in my mind because they botched a window of opportunity by being too focused on the future and too concerned with "financial flexibility". The truly awful decisions the Pirates have made in the last few seasons would have easily been avoided by a very modest increase in the payroll.

Bing-fuckin-o

I do think if Marte were available for the playoffs and they added a 3B plus a reliever at the deadline, they'd have a puncher's chance this season. I think the Marte situation really fucks the whole thing up.

So if the Pirates feel as I do about it, what do they do at the deadline? I wouldn't add any rentals or dump anyone - neither a buyer nor seller. I'd they can add a player or two that would be around next season as well I'm all for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:43 pm 
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rumour bucs looking for outfield help on espn.. jay bruce be nice addition.. and wtf is deal with Polanco and hammys?..ever heard of stretching? take some ballet classes for Christ sake.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:33 pm 
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And interesting article on the Pirates and Royals at the trade deadline.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/2014 ... lue-simple

Quote:
The patterns of success and failure are similar, but it goes further. Depending on the metric you want to look at, Pittsburgh and Kansas City rank among the four or five smallest markets in baseball. Both are terrific baseball cities with loyal fan bases, but with market realities being what they are, attendance dovetailed with success, and during the down years, both teams hung around the bottom of their respective leagues at the turnstiles. Both play in venues that are absolute gems, though -- I'm about to alienate a large percentage of the many Royals fans I know -- there is no competition when it comes to stadium location.

Right now, in the week before the deadline, these paths remain in lockstep. Pirates general manager Neal Huntington and Royals GM Dayton Moore face what feels like the same dilemma as that of all teams in the no man's land between buying and selling. Things are never as cut and dried as we want to make them in sports. No teams inhabit that in-between space more right now than the Pirates and Royals.

It is very easy to look at these teams and declare that they should be in the mode of exchanging current production for future value. According to the latest run of simulations in my system, the Royals have a 17 percent shot at making the playoffs. The Pirates were at 5 percent. They are a combined four games over .500 but a combined minus-37 in run differential. Recent trends offer hope, but the Vulcan perspective is clear: The odds are long that either of these teams will make the playoffs.

Not for nothing, both teams are bleeding attendance. The Pirates' decline of 3,817 fans per game is the second highest in baseball, behind the 5,231 decrease of the Royals. And you have to wonder whether all those years of losing have created waves of flashbacks in Pittsburgh and Kansas City. Everyone remembers what it looks like when the window is shut.

The situations facing Huntington and Moore are different in two key respects, however. First, Huntington faces only a moderate amount of contract drama. Relievers Juan Nicasio and Tony Watson will be free agents, and if the Pirates were out of it, it would make sense to move them for prospects. McCutchen has a $14 million team option for 2018 that is sure to be picked up, given his return to All-Star-level play.

Things are much more hairy for Moore, who has Eric Hosmer, Lorenzo Cain, Mike Moustakas, Alcides Escobar and Jason Vargas all hitting the market after the season. Already gone is closer Wade Davis, sent to the Chicago Cubs over the winter for disappointing outfielder Jorge Soler. Closer Kelvin Herrera is nearing the end of his arbitration window.

The other key difference between the teams is the perceived disparity of their minor league systems. During his organizational rankings over the winter, Keith Law had the Pirates in the top five and the Royals in the bottom five.

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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:59 pm 
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Why is everyone arguing with a guy that doesn't even watch baseball? That much is obvious.

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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:49 am 
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R S wrote:
Why is everyone arguing with a guy that doesn't even watch baseball? That much is obvious.

You talking to me asswipe?


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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:18 pm 
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The new CBA that went in to effect this season has two additional penalties on big spenders. The first new penalty is a 12% surcharge on salaries at certain threshold. That is addition to the competive balance tax already being paid. The other penalty is a new wrinkle that goes beyond money. It is a 10 position drop in selection on a team's first draft pick. The only team certain to be above the threshold is the Dodgers. Under these new provisions they'll end up paying about $15-$20 million in additional penalties ($50+ million in total) than under the previous CBA and have their top pick moved back from somewhere near 30th overall to somewhere near 40th overall. The Dodgers have been trying in recent seasons to get below the high thresholds. The Dodgers and Yankees view the penalties as quite steep and have stated they will work hard to get below them and stay there. The point is there are salary controls beyond a hard cap that can work. Baseball just needs to have a little more backbone in getting the thresholds lowered so more teams need to make the hard decisions of whether they should continue to add salary at the expense of absorbing a stiff penalty.

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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:59 pm 
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may as well start the purge to more financial flexability..this atrocious road trip has most likely buried any slim hopes for this team.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:33 am 
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SteelPro wrote:
The new CBA that went in to effect this season has two additional penalties on big spenders. The first new penalty is a 12% surcharge on salaries at certain threshold. That is addition to the competive balance tax already being paid. The other penalty is a new wrinkle that goes beyond money. It is a 10 position drop in selection on a team's first draft pick. The only team certain to be above the threshold is the Dodgers. Under these new provisions they'll end up paying about $15-$20 million in additional penalties ($50+ million in total) than under the previous CBA and have their top pick moved back from somewhere near 30th overall to somewhere near 40th overall. The Dodgers have been trying in recent seasons to get below the high thresholds. The Dodgers and Yankees view the penalties as quite steep and have stated they will work hard to get below them and stay there. The point is there are salary controls beyond a hard cap that can work. Baseball just needs to have a little more backbone in getting the thresholds lowered so more teams need to make the hard decisions of whether they should continue to add salary at the expense of absorbing a stiff penalty.

Sounds like a great fix.

September 19, Penguins play their first pre-season game!


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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:29 am 
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The salary cap has had virtually no impact on the Penguins successes. The NHL salary has done nothing to resolve small/market large market competive balances issues in the NHL. In large part because there never was a competitive balance issue in hockey. Were the large market high revenues teams hording playoff spots and Stanley Cups in the 80's, 90's and first half of the 00's? I don't think so. Let's ask Bethlehemsteel how many Cups the Flyers won those years. Chicago won zilch. The Rangers won a single cup. Toronto won nothing and they are perennialy the highest revenue club in Canada (and often the whole league). Meanwhile the Pens won Cups in both eras. And Pittsburgh isn't really a small market in hockey anyway. They are top 10 revenue club. From a pure size perspective Pittsburgh hockey market ranks higher than the Pittsburgh baseball market within the league. There are way more NHL teams in small markets than in baseball.

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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:11 am 
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bottom line..baseball has a jacked up salary system. and pirates are a jacked up team with one of the worst owners in sports! bad combo; and difficult to overcome.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:30 am 
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SteelPro wrote:
The salary cap has had virtually no impact on the Penguins successes. The NHL salary has done nothing to resolve small/market large market competive balances issues in the NHL. In large part because there never was a competitive balance issue in hockey. Were the large market high revenues teams hording playoff spots and Stanley Cups in the 80's, 90's and first half of the 00's? I don't think so. Let's ask Bethlehemsteel how many Cups the Flyers won those years. Chicago won zilch. The Rangers won a single cup. Toronto won nothing and they are perennialy the highest revenue club in Canada (and often the whole league). Meanwhile the Pens won Cups in both eras. And Pittsburgh isn't really a small market in hockey anyway. They are top 10 revenue club. From a pure size perspective Pittsburgh hockey market ranks higher than the Pittsburgh baseball market within the league. There are way more NHL teams in small markets than in baseball.




I get where you're coming from, but it's a bit of a wrong picture.


The NHL was a case of nipping things in the bud. You point to the 80s and 90s, but salary disparity didn't really begin heavily until about 1997-1998, which ironically coincides with the arms race between Colorado/Detroit and with a New Jersey team always near the top in league salary (aka the teams that pretty much dominated the cup picture for about a decade). To break it down more, the highest payroll in 92-93 was 14.8 million (NYR). The league average was 10 million. The highest paid player was Eric Lindros at 3.5 million. By 2003-04, the league average payroll was 44 million and the highest was the Red Wings at 77.8 million. The highest paid player was Jaromir Jagr at 11.5 million a year, or 1 million less than what Connor McDavid is making annually 14 years later. That's a whole lot more dough and a lot larger of a gap. Baseball's chance to close the gap came and went around 98.

If you asked me which teams were the most successful during that 97-04 stretch of time, with maybe the exception of the 04 Cup of TB/CGY, I'd say Detroit, Colorado, Dallas, and New Jersey were near the top of the list--all teams consistently at the top of the near the top of the payroll. Despite their massive money, Toronto never became a big-time spender in the league until 99-00, which by no coincidence was the start of a five-season streak of postseason berths until the lockout and coincided with a massive contract to goaltender Curtis Joseph.

Around the 04-05 lockout, the NHL realized that salaries were at a breaking point, with some teams ballooning too much with contracts that simply couldn't be met in a league that had very little revenue sharing, no luxury tax, and no cap. The cap did and still does have a monumental impact on the Penguins. With bankruptcy, the Penguins couldn't afford many of their players and had to dump quality out the ass (Kovalev, debatably Jagr, Lang, Straka, to name a few). Had a system of revenue sharing+cap been in place, maybe those players stay and maybe the team is more successful. Maybe the Penguins don't get Crosby/Malkin as a result. Even today, I find it hard to fathom that a team like NY wouldn't try to snipe Malkin from the Penguins . Or maybe they offer Letang a $10 million dollar contract a few seasons ago. A salary cap takes out the asinine money, moderates everything, and allows teams to retain their own players (assuming they want to come back).

Success in the NHL today is about forming a team identity, making smart free agent decisions and trades, and getting lucky with amazingly talented draft picks. It's all about managing a team within a cap environment. I thank god every day that a) Sidney Crosby is loyal b) he was never in a situation where 20+ teams were bidding for his services in a capless world. In that scenario, Crosby either resigns and the team sucks without Malkin or Sid's off to Washington or Toronto.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deeadline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:54 am 
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fortythree wrote:
Im the opposite. I don't think they're good enough but I don't think there's any one player they can get or position they can upgrade that makes them contenders.

So I try to sell.

I try to trade Cutch. I try to trade Freese. I see what I can get for Rivero.

If I don't get blow away deals then I keep them and maybe consider being a buyer.

But if I can get one or two major league ready potential stars to add to this lineup next year, I do it.


Why so you can contend for the wild card in 2020? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:59 am 
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Y-Town Steel wrote:
Marte not being available for the postseason really fucks things up in my mind,


Worry about that when you get there.

This franchise is so cheap the entertainment value is just securing a wild card.

That's to us like winning the WS is to the Yankees at this point.

Forget about the future, worry about cracking the champagne if you can finish 88-74 and get to a WC game.

Trading Cutch for "prospects" is really a low % play, what are the odds that any one of them is ever as good as Cutch is now? Little to no chance IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:22 pm 
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http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/joe- ... 1708010111

Stakey's pissed.

Quote:
How incredible was it to see positive reaction, even a little, to the Pirates’ do-nothing deadline, which followed a do-nothing four months from management?

Here you have a team 5½ games out of first place, about to embark on an eight-game homestand and still with seven games left against the division-leading Cubs, and it’s OK to crawl under a desk on deadline day?

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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:14 pm 
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So I return from a nice vacation to see the Pirates neither tried to do anything this year, nor set themselves up for next year.

Color me not surprised.

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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:52 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
So I return from a nice vacation to see the Pirates neither tried to do anything this year, nor set themselves up for next year.

Color me not surprised.


Yeah, I sort of wondered where you've been.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:08 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
So I return from a nice vacation to see the Pirates neither tried to do anything this year, nor set themselves up for next year.

Color me not surprised.

Not that I'm arguing with the general point, but it is good to see Serpico back.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:52 pm 
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Hacksaw Jim Duggan wrote:
SteelPro wrote:
The salary cap has had virtually no impact on the Penguins successes. The NHL salary has done nothing to resolve small/market large market competive balances issues in the NHL. In large part because there never was a competitive balance issue in hockey. Were the large market high revenues teams hording playoff spots and Stanley Cups in the 80's, 90's and first half of the 00's? I don't think so. Let's ask Bethlehemsteel how many Cups the Flyers won those years. Chicago won zilch. The Rangers won a single cup. Toronto won nothing and they are perennialy the highest revenue club in Canada (and often the whole league). Meanwhile the Pens won Cups in both eras. And Pittsburgh isn't really a small market in hockey anyway. They are top 10 revenue club. From a pure size perspective Pittsburgh hockey market ranks higher than the Pittsburgh baseball market within the league. There are way more NHL teams in small markets than in baseball.




I get where you're coming from, but it's a bit of a wrong picture.


The NHL was a case of nipping things in the bud. You point to the 80s and 90s, but salary disparity didn't really begin heavily until about 1997-1998, which ironically coincides with the arms race between Colorado/Detroit and with a New Jersey team always near the top in league salary (aka the teams that pretty much dominated the cup picture for about a decade). To break it down more, the highest payroll in 92-93 was 14.8 million (NYR). The league average was 10 million. The highest paid player was Eric Lindros at 3.5 million. By 2003-04, the league average payroll was 44 million and the highest was the Red Wings at 77.8 million. The highest paid player was Jaromir Jagr at 11.5 million a year, or 1 million less than what Connor McDavid is making annually 14 years later. That's a whole lot more dough and a lot larger of a gap. Baseball's chance to close the gap came and went around 98.

If you asked me which teams were the most successful during that 97-04 stretch of time, with maybe the exception of the 04 Cup of TB/CGY, I'd say Detroit, Colorado, Dallas, and New Jersey were near the top of the list--all teams consistently at the top of the near the top of the payroll. Despite their massive money, Toronto never became a big-time spender in the league until 99-00, which by no coincidence was the start of a five-season streak of postseason berths until the lockout and coincided with a massive contract to goaltender Curtis Joseph.

Around the 04-05 lockout, the NHL realized that salaries were at a breaking point, with some teams ballooning too much with contracts that simply couldn't be met in a league that had very little revenue sharing, no luxury tax, and no cap. The cap did and still does have a monumental impact on the Penguins. With bankruptcy, the Penguins couldn't afford many of their players and had to dump quality out the ass (Kovalev, debatably Jagr, Lang, Straka, to name a few). Had a system of revenue sharing+cap been in place, maybe those players stay and maybe the team is more successful. Maybe the Penguins don't get Crosby/Malkin as a result. Even today, I find it hard to fathom that a team like NY wouldn't try to snipe Malkin from the Penguins . Or maybe they offer Letang a $10 million dollar contract a few seasons ago. A salary cap takes out the asinine money, moderates everything, and allows teams to retain their own players (assuming they want to come back).

Success in the NHL today is about forming a team identity, making smart free agent decisions and trades, and getting lucky with amazingly talented draft picks. It's all about managing a team within a cap environment. I thank god every day that a) Sidney Crosby is loyal b) he was never in a situation where 20+ teams were bidding for his services in a capless world. In that scenario, Crosby either resigns and the team sucks without Malkin or Sid's off to Washington or Toronto.


Excellent post Hacksaw - been waiting for Steel Pro Joe's response.


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