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 Post subject: Re: GO CAVS!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 4:05 am 
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Lebron was brilliant in another losing cause. Cue. the "supporting cast" arguments.

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 Post subject: Re: GO CAVS!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:53 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
Lebron was brilliant in another losing cause. Cue. the "supporting cast" arguments.


13/33 in a game that sends your team home is not brilliant. There is nothing more regularly deceiving in sports than points scored. Lebron's points in the finals were low percentage volume shooting when you also factor in the 21 FT's he bricked.

Lebron is a monster player and at the same time a flawed player. He is not a natural shooter like Kevin Durant.

The warriors overall strategy in the series was 1 guy can't beat us. If Lebron shot the ball like Kevin Durant the warriors would have been forced to force the ball out of his hands but they never had to do that on the perimeter. Lebron can create space and get an open look as good as anyone in the league so it's not like he wasn't getting decent to good looks.

.398 .310 .687 That is losing basketball.

In game 6 the Cavs often ran a 2nd guy at Curry on the perimeter opening up space for his teammates. Curry is not getting enough credit for this.


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 Post subject: Re: GO CAVS!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 12:01 pm 
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Zeke5123 wrote:
Dan Smith--BYU wrote:
It's basically the 1976 Steelers...great team ruined at the wrong time by injuries.


Bullshit.

Kyrie and Love are two of the most overrated players in the NBA. The 67 win team from the West...were always the favorites. Well, them or the Spurs. Or a healthy Thunder. Those three teams >>> Cleveland. Hell, Cleveland was lucky Wall broke his hand. The Wizards would've given the Cavs trouble. The Wizards would have had 4 of the best 6 players (and the 2 and 3).

Also, if those guys were in the game, LeBron plays a different game.


A few thoughts, Zeke...

The west was ridiculously deep but the top teams were not as good as in many years in the past. Spurs were not the same with parker and ginobili playing "below the line" at least for their standards vs the clippers. Maybe it was all father time or maybe parker was not fully healthy.

The warriors played the grizzlies, rockets, and cavs... and all had injury issues.

I watched some of the cavs vs warriors rs matchup after the cavs had retooled their team and were destroying teams. What I saw was a lot like games 2 and 3 in the finals, except the role players were able to stay in their proper roles and the cavs were a completely different team on offense.

The cavs with KL and Irving can beat you in so many ways. Lebron can then play the game he wants to play and is built for.

KL was basically a 16/10 guy for the cavs. He willingly took a back seat and was capable of more. He gave them another post option in the half court even though they rarely used him that way.

Irving rs gave them 21 pts 5 assists per game. He shot 41% from the 3 pt line and 86% from the FT line.

With KL and Irving on the team we would not have had to endure the hideous spectacle of watching Lebron throw a lob pass into the low post to... wait for it... Iman Shumpert. When I saw that early in game 6 I said "ugh" as as soon as I saw who was catching that lob. That is a horrendous level of basketball for an nba finals and it wasn't the only time in the game they tried it.

And with KL and Irving on the team we would not have had to endure the painful looking attempts by JR Smith to make plays driving to the basket. He was out of his element and it was hard to watch.


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 Post subject: Re: GO CAVS!
PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:22 pm 
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Havoc wrote:
Zeke5123 wrote:
Dan Smith--BYU wrote:
It's basically the 1976 Steelers...great team ruined at the wrong time by injuries.


Bullshit.

Kyrie and Love are two of the most overrated players in the NBA. The 67 win team from the West...were always the favorites. Well, them or the Spurs. Or a healthy Thunder. Those three teams >>> Cleveland. Hell, Cleveland was lucky Wall broke his hand. The Wizards would've given the Cavs trouble. The Wizards would have had 4 of the best 6 players (and the 2 and 3).

Also, if those guys were in the game, LeBron plays a different game.


A few thoughts, Zeke...

The west was ridiculously deep but the top teams were not as good as in many years in the past. Spurs were not the same with parker and ginobili playing "below the line" at least for their standards vs the clippers. Maybe it was all father time or maybe parker was not fully healthy.

The warriors played the grizzlies, rockets, and cavs... and all had injury issues.

I watched some of the cavs vs warriors rs matchup after the cavs had retooled their team and were destroying teams. What I saw was a lot like games 2 and 3 in the finals, except the role players were able to stay in their proper roles and the cavs were a completely different team on offense.

The cavs with KL and Irving can beat you in so many ways. Lebron can then play the game he wants to play and is built for.

KL was basically a 16/10 guy for the cavs. He willingly took a back seat and was capable of more. He gave them another post option in the half court even though they rarely used him that way.

Irving rs gave them 21 pts 5 assists per game. He shot 41% from the 3 pt line and 86% from the FT line.

With KL and Irving on the team we would not have had to endure the hideous spectacle of watching Lebron throw a lob pass into the low post to... wait for it... Iman Shumpert. When I saw that early in game 6 I said "ugh" as as soon as I saw who was catching that lob. That is a horrendous level of basketball for an nba finals and it wasn't the only time in the game they tried it.

And with KL and Irving on the team we would not have had to endure the painful looking attempts by JR Smith to make plays driving to the basket. He was out of his element and it was hard to watch.


Don't waste your time posting facts for Zeke, Havoc.

He isn't too smart an individual. Obviously doesn't watch much basketball either.

As to the above post, LeBron said himself in the media he isn't a volume shooter. It simply isn't what he does. Jordan couldn't shoot 3's well either until later on. He is on the list with LeBron on the lowest % of made 3 point shots in the playoffs. LeBron is more than capable of getting hot though. Don't believe me? Find the playoff game against Detroit where he scored 25 or so straight points for the Cavs to win the game single handedly. Shit, he was hitting fade away deep 3's in high school with ease.

He's a more complete player than Durant.

Don't forget that Harden, Durant, and Westbrook couldn't win a title together.


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 Post subject: Re: GO CAVS!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:25 am 
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Havoc wrote:
13/33 in a game that sends your team home is not brilliant. There is nothing more regularly deceiving in sports than points scored. Lebron's points in the finals were low percentage volume shooting when you also factor in the 21 FT's he bricked.


Brilliant post. It cries for reps, if this board allowed.

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 Post subject: Re: GO CAVS!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:07 am 
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Havoc wrote:
Zeke5123 wrote:
Dan Smith--BYU wrote:
It's basically the 1976 Steelers...great team ruined at the wrong time by injuries.


Bullshit.

Kyrie and Love are two of the most overrated players in the NBA. The 67 win team from the West...were always the favorites. Well, them or the Spurs. Or a healthy Thunder. Those three teams >>> Cleveland. Hell, Cleveland was lucky Wall broke his hand. The Wizards would've given the Cavs trouble. The Wizards would have had 4 of the best 6 players (and the 2 and 3).

Also, if those guys were in the game, LeBron plays a different game.


A few thoughts, Zeke...

The west was ridiculously deep but the top teams were not as good as in many years in the past. Spurs were not the same with parker and ginobili playing "below the line" at least for their standards vs the clippers. Maybe it was all father time or maybe parker was not fully healthy.

The warriors played the grizzlies, rockets, and cavs... and all had injury issues.

I watched some of the cavs vs warriors rs matchup after the cavs had retooled their team and were destroying teams. What I saw was a lot like games 2 and 3 in the finals, except the role players were able to stay in their proper roles and the cavs were a completely different team on offense.

The cavs with KL and Irving can beat you in so many ways. Lebron can then play the game he wants to play and is built for.

KL was basically a 16/10 guy for the cavs. He willingly took a back seat and was capable of more. He gave them another post option in the half court even though they rarely used him that way.

Irving rs gave them 21 pts 5 assists per game. He shot 41% from the 3 pt line and 86% from the FT line.

With KL and Irving on the team we would not have had to endure the hideous spectacle of watching Lebron throw a lob pass into the low post to... wait for it... Iman Shumpert. When I saw that early in game 6 I said "ugh" as as soon as I saw who was catching that lob. That is a horrendous level of basketball for an nba finals and it wasn't the only time in the game they tried it.

And with KL and Irving on the team we would not have had to endure the painful looking attempts by JR Smith to make plays driving to the basket. He was out of his element and it was hard to watch.


Every team GS played in the Western Conference Playoffs, with the possible exception of the Pelicans, was better than any team Cleveland played in the Eastern Conference playoffs, injuries or not (Atlanta also had injuries). GS didn't waltz to the Finals like Cleveland. They actually had to play good teams.

Love and Irving no doubt provide better spacing, but both are negatives on defense. Cleveland switched out one-dimensional offensive players for one-dimensional defensive players. You could argue that Irving and Love are better at their one dimension (and you might be right) but the series is completely different. GS would've gone smaller sooner AND Cleveland wouldn't have been able to punish them on the offensive glass (its biggest advantage). Defense is why Irving and Love are overrated. Both suck on defense. But offense gets you notoriety and offense-only players generally always disappoint in the playoffs where it is harder to hide a deficiency. There is a reason why Love never went to the playoffs and why Irving had zero impact on shitty Cleveland teams. There is a reason why when LBJ was out Cleveland treaded water. It is because Irving and Love aren't that good.

Maybe Cleveland ekks out a series win, but there is little reason why ex ante to favor the worse team (i.e. Golden State over the season proved to be the better team). Playing a couple games H2H in the regular season is not indicative of how a playoff series will go in the NBA. This has been documented numerous times. What generally holds true is that the better team wins. Going into the Finals with Kyrie Cleveland had by the numbers a 25% of winning the Finals because by the numbers they were a worse team. The loss of Irving actually didn't change the odds of winning that much. Cleveland from the start was always out classed.


Last edited by Zeke5123 on Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: GO CAVS!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:17 am 
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Steelcody36 wrote:

Don't waste your time posting facts for Zeke, Havoc.

He isn't too smart an individual. Obviously doesn't watch much basketball either.

As to the above post, LeBron said himself in the media he isn't a volume shooter. It simply isn't what he does. Jordan couldn't shoot 3's well either until later on. He is on the list with LeBron on the lowest % of made 3 point shots in the playoffs. LeBron is more than capable of getting hot though. Don't believe me? Find the playoff game against Detroit where he scored 25 or so straight points for the Cavs to win the game single handedly. Shit, he was hitting fade away deep 3's in high school with ease.

He's a more complete player than Durant.

Don't forget that Harden, Durant, and Westbrook couldn't win a title together.


First, learn the difference between facts and analysis. Sure, there were some facts in the post. But the conclusions were all driven by opinion or analysis of the facts. The facts do not speak for themselves.

Second, what is the point of this post? What LeBron is capable of is different compared to what LeBron did. LBJ had a lot of points in the series because he took a lot of shots. He also missed a helluva lot more than he made. That is, he was inefficient. Jordan was not inefficient in the Finals. Jordan also never had any of the stinkers LeBron has had in the playoffs.

Switch the Heat and the Thunder. Good chance the Thunder win a couple titles and the Heat never win a title. The difference between the East and the West is astounding. It is a great accomplishment to win the West; not so much the East.

Also, thank you for the complement about my intelligence. You calling anyone stupid is probably the biggest praise for which anyone could hope.


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 Post subject: Re: GO CAVS!
PostPosted: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:40 am 
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Posts: 3350
Kodiak wrote:
Havoc wrote:
13/33 in a game that sends your team home is not brilliant. There is nothing more regularly deceiving in sports than points scored. Lebron's points in the finals were low percentage volume shooting when you also factor in the 21 FT's he bricked.


Brilliant post. It cries for reps, if this board allowed.


That wasn't my post.

Being a brilliant scorer is much more than total points on a stat sheet. How and when points are scored are often more important than how many. If all other things are equal, the more efficient shooting team wins.

Lebron was not a brilliant scorer in the finals. Lebron was not a brilliant shooter in the finals. There is an efficiency tipping point and he was below the line.

.398 fg% .310 from 3 pt line .687 FT line. The sum total of all of this is losing basketball.


This was my post...

13/33 in a game that sends your team home is not brilliant. There is nothing more regularly deceiving in sports than points scored. Lebron's points in the finals were low percentage volume shooting when you also factor in the 21 FT's he bricked.

Lebron is a monster player and at the same time a flawed player. He is not a natural shooter like Kevin Durant.

The warriors overall strategy in the series was 1 guy can't beat us. If Lebron shot the ball like Kevin Durant the warriors would have been forced to force the ball out of his hands but they never had to do that on the perimeter. Lebron can create space and get an open look as good as anyone in the league so it's not like he wasn't getting decent to good looks.

.398 .310 .687 That is losing basketball.

In game 6 the Cavs often ran a 2nd guy at Curry on the perimeter opening up space for his teammates. Curry is not getting enough credit for this.


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 Post subject: Re: GO CAVS!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:12 am 
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Zeke5123 wrote:
Every team GS played in the Western Conference Playoffs, with the possible exception of the Pelicans, was better than any team Cleveland played in the Eastern Conference playoffs, injuries or not (Atlanta also had injuries). GS didn't waltz to the Finals like Cleveland. They actually had to play good teams.

Love and Irving no doubt provide better spacing, but both are negatives on defense. Cleveland switched out one-dimensional offensive players for one-dimensional defensive players. You could argue that Irving and Love are better at their one dimension (and you might be right) but the series is completely different. GS would've gone smaller sooner AND Cleveland wouldn't have been able to punish them on the offensive glass (its biggest advantage). Defense is why Irving and Love are overrated. Both suck on defense. But offense gets you notoriety and offense-only players generally always disappoint in the playoffs where it is harder to hide a deficiency. There is a reason why Love never went to the playoffs and why Irving had zero impact on shitty Cleveland teams. There is a reason why when LBJ was out Cleveland treaded water. It is because Irving and Love aren't that good.

Maybe Cleveland ekks out a series win, but there is little reason why ex ante to favor the worse team (i.e. Golden State over the season proved to be the better team). Playing a couple games H2H in the regular season is not indicative of how a playoff series will go in the NBA. This has been documented numerous times. What generally holds true is that the better team wins. Going into the Finals with Kyrie Cleveland had by the numbers a 25% of winning the Finals because by the numbers they were a worse team. The loss of Irving actually didn't change the odds of winning that much. Cleveland from the start was always out classed.


The only thing that matters regarding the Cavs is what that team had become after retooling their team during the rs. What they did before that is meaningless.

The Warriors and Cavs records during their last 43 games of the RS...

Warriors 34-9
Cavs 34-9

Yes, the Cavs most likely had an easier schedule during that stretch being in the east. But they did play some of the top west teams during that stretch and beat most of them including the Warriors (in cleveland though).

Cavs offensive efficiency ranking from Jan 23rd thru the end of the RS... 1st in the league.

Cavs defensive efficiency ranking from Jan 23rd thru the end of the RS... 13th in the league.

So they weren't a top 10 defensive team (yet). They most likely were still improving though.

And yes, factor in strength of schedule being an east team during the last part of their season so in reality they were probably not as good as those rankings.

The Warriors went small in the finals because they were getting beat... it was kind of a desperation move. Cleveland did not have the personnel to force them out of it. With KL and Irving, they probably would have been able to force them out it.

Cleveland did beat them 2 times without 2 starters in the series.

KL and Irving on the floor takes all the pressure off JR Smith and creates more space for him and he probably hits more shots.

Lebron with shooters around him is extremely dangerous and they had that with KL and Irving.

It's possible that the warriors were too much of a well oiled machine for them and it's possible the Cavs would not have been quite good enough defensively.

http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2015/06/01/cavs-still-face-questions-about-their-d/


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 Post subject: Re: GO CAVS!
PostPosted: Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:37 pm 
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It's a fact the Cavs win that series with a full squad, most likely a sweep or five games.

Winning two games with scrubs is proof enough of that.


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