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 Post subject: Re: Call me crazy...but Manziel will be a bust
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:36 am 
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I think Bortles is going to be pretty fucking good. Partly because it seems Jax finally learned to play it patient & sit him...we'll see if they stick to that plan, but it'd be a shame to throw that guy to the wolves. Seems a lot of instant success QB's have a good year until they put their game on film. Some exceptions, but overall it seems that way. That position needs a redshirt year more than any other.

Ben's & Russell Wilson's don't grow on trees.

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 Post subject: Re: Call me crazy...but Manziel will be a bust
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:45 am 
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Zivco wrote:
Look, you can pick it to death. It is what it is. You left a few good throws from the article out of your presentation. You can nitpick mechanix to death...he has a strong arm and a quick release most of the time...how many times have we seen BR throw with poor feet? Did BR win the starting job out of camp? Did BR have the national media and every envious as fuck fan(not including you) picking his play to death?


Irrelevant to the discussion we're having.

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There was no way in hell any CB short of a 3.5 forty gets hands on that ball. And where the fuck was he suppose to throw it? What QB gets a better outcome of that third and 11 call?


1. It wasn't all that far off from the DB.
2. That specific throw wasn't picked, but panicking and throwing the out route like that (or failing to get it out of bounds on a throwaway) is recipe for disaster.

Quote:
How much did that second and 18 throw matter?


Every throw matters for a young QB trying to win a starting job. W/L doesn't matter in the preseason.

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Was it his first game on national TV? What's your standard for rookie QBs?

I like the fact he took a hit and bounced up.


True, he did not get injured. Low bar.

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I like the fact he showed poise in clutch situations.


Once.

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I like the fact he took no shit.


The opposite. He lost his temper in a dumb way. That's the opposite of "taking no shit."

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I like the fact he didn't turn the ball over.


Always a positive, but again, we're setting the bar pretty low here.

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I like the fact he got a TD throw under his belt.


Against the third team after penalties kept the drive alive and when the TD throw was a rinky pass with YAC. Not really a telling TD pass. I could have made that pass, and I can't even QB my team to the flag football championship in the casual division.

A few of your "likes" are these intangibles that only have any possible validity because they can't be proved or disproved by tape. Others are basic, high school or college level concepts.

He did nothing to suggest he is ready to make the leap to pro QB. What he put on tape would have led the Browns to 0-16.

And that's the discussion we were having. He was bad, with only one or two bright moments.

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 Post subject: Re: Call me crazy...but Manziel will be a bust
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:57 am 
SteelKnife wrote:
Irrelevant to the discussion we're having.


Are we not talking about rookie QBs?

SteelKnife wrote:
1. It wasn't all that far off from the DB.
2. That specific throw wasn't picked, but panicking and throwing the out route like that (or failing to get it out of bounds on a throwaway) is recipe for disaster.


If you have staked a position already you see it as something other then where no one could catch it.

SteelKnife wrote:
True, he did not get injured. Low bar.


Significant for a smallish QB that uses his feet.

SteelKnife wrote:
Once.


They left an out...out of the package. There was also another throw I called a drop on third down I don't recall seeing.

SteelKnife wrote:
The opposite. He lost his temper in a dumb way. That's the opposite of "taking no shit."


We are in complete disagreement here.

SteelKnife wrote:
A few of your "likes" are these intangibles that only have any possible validity because they can't be proved or disproved by tape. Others are basic, high school or college level concepts.

He did nothing to suggest he is ready to make the leap to pro QB. What he put on tape would have led the Browns to 0-16.

And that's the discussion we were having. He was bad, with only one or two bright moments.


You are pretty much talking to yourself...because I think it's absurd beyond words to project a rookie season off a preseason game. So why don't you break down Hoyer...or do you find no merit in the new offense no one sharp theory or are simply parroting a ridiculous standard for a player the national media doesn't like?


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 Post subject: Re: Call me crazy...but Manziel will be a bust
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:07 am 
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Zivco wrote:

You are pretty much talking to yourself...because I think it's absurd beyond words to project a rookie season off a preseason game. So why don't you break down Hoyer...or do you find no merit in the new offense no one sharp theory or are simply parroting a ridiculous standard for a player the national media doesn't like?


Because that's not the discussion we were having. I never said Hoyer was a good QB. I have no interest in discussing Hoyer. I've been saying JM will be a bust since before he was drafted. But that also has nothing to do with the discussion we are having.

You said you thought he looked good. I said he looked bad. You said we were watching different games. Thus begat this spat.

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 Post subject: Re: Call me crazy...but Manziel will be a bust
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:19 am 
SteelKnife wrote:
Because that's not the discussion we were having. I never said Hoyer was a good QB. I have no interest in discussing Hoyer. I've been saying JM will be a bust since before he was drafted. But that also has nothing to do with the discussion we are having.


From the start my two points were compared to Hoyer and for a rookie.

SteelKnife wrote:
You said you thought he looked good. I said he looked bad. You said we were watching different games. Thus begat this spat.


I said I thought he looked pretty good comparatively. And I still do. I put no stock in the maturity issues or the Leaf comparison...I've seen JF interviewed, seen him break down tape with Gruden, and I know he had the highest wonderlic of any QB in the draft. He's a rookie in an offense new to everybody. It might not be this year...but if I'm a Browns fan I'm thinking we finally have a winner at QB.


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 Post subject: Re: Call me crazy...but Manziel will be a bust
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:22 am 
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But are you thinking that for any reason new or different than why you thought that when he was drafted?

He's shown nothing in the NFL to justify it yet. That's essentially my point. It's all the same hype and potential from before he was drafted but after the combine.

Which is fine, and might prove to be justified, but it's still purely hype and potential based almost exclusively on college tape and combine.

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 Post subject: Re: Call me crazy...but Manziel will be a bust
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:41 am 
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VanWilder wrote:
I think Bortles is going to be pretty fucking good. Partly because it seems Jax finally learned to play it patient & sit him...we'll see if they stick to that plan, but it'd be a shame to throw that guy to the wolves. Seems a lot of instant success QB's have a good year until they put their game on film. Some exceptions, but overall it seems that way. That position needs a redshirt year more than any other.

Ben's & Russell Wilson's don't grow on trees.


Russell Wilson is good, but I am not at the point where I would compare him to Big Ben.


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 Post subject: Re: Call me crazy...but Manziel will be a bust
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:16 pm 
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Ice wrote:
VanWilder wrote:
I think Bortles is going to be pretty fucking good. Partly because it seems Jax finally learned to play it patient & sit him...we'll see if they stick to that plan, but it'd be a shame to throw that guy to the wolves. Seems a lot of instant success QB's have a good year until they put their game on film. Some exceptions, but overall it seems that way. That position needs a redshirt year more than any other.

Ben's & Russell Wilson's don't grow on trees.


Russell Wilson is good, but I am not at the point where I would compare him to Big Ben.




me either!


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 Post subject: Re: Call me crazy...but Manziel will be a bust
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:02 pm 
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SP wrote:
bradshaw2ben wrote:
Logan Thomas and maybe mettenberger are going to be the two best QBs from this draft and you can bank it.
Logan Thomas is everything manziel is only bigger, better athletically, and with an NFL arm. He looks ready to be an NFL QB soon.


Logan Thomas has all of the physical tools and none of the mental ones. Athletically he's a cross between Ben and Cam Newton. he just makes really bad decisions, struggles to read defenses, and is woefully inaccurate on way too many of his passes. I can't see him becoming a success in the NFL beyond beating some scrubs playing vanilla defenses in preseason games. Bortles is the top QB from this class by a long way IMO. I could see Mettenberger developing into something down the line. Maybe even Bridgewater.

Seriously, Logan Thomas was a 55% passer in the ACC. You don't fix that.


Logan Thomas sucks. He was highly inaccurate throwing the ball in college. When is the last time and inaccurate QB was miraculously cured once they got to the NFL? :lol: Reading the defense isn't even his biggest problem. The guy will never be QB in the league.

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 Post subject: Re: Call me crazy...but Manziel will be a bust
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:35 pm 
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Accurate and quick decision makers can make it in the NFL. Brees and Wilson have nothing in common with Manziel other than height challenged for the QB norm. I saw a list on passers below 6'2 who were successful in the NFL and the list is short. within the last 10 years you have Brees, Wilson and Vick. And then about 50 failures.

IMHO, Manziel will have the same problems that RGIII has IF they want him to be a pocket passer. Neither did it in college and it is quite a change for them mentally. I think RGIII was/is much more accurate a passer than Manziel.

I agree with Hodge's assessment on Manziel. He looks to run first if the first read is not there. That will shorten his career by a large amount. But to be successful, he needs an offense that plays to his strength. But to play to his strength it will beat him up ( like RGIII).

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