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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:20 pm 
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R S wrote:
This cop fucked up. Plain and simple. It appears from the witnesses that he knew he fucked up immediately after he pulled the trigger. Sad for all those involved. I don't know the whole case. But apparently there was a gun in the car and the car was suspected in a drive by. Anyone know if in fact it was the right car? Still the wrong move by the cop, but if the kid was in the car that just did a drive by, It's a bit different than him getting gunned down buying crackerjacks at the corner store.



It was the correct car. They pulled the car over because it not only matched the make and model of the one described in the drive by, but it also had bullet holes in it.

So they knew it was the correct car and also knew the people in it were likely to be armed and willing to use those guns.

Does that information equate to a credible enough threat to open fire on someone running in the opposite direction? That's the million dollar question, here. And I believe that to be a question that no one who has never done that type of job before is even remotely qualified to answer.

My gut says he should have just let the kid go and not fired on him. But as I mentioned before, I have multiple friends in this line of work (including one friend on the SWAT team), and know enough from talking to them over the years that these things are never, ever as cut and dry as they seem. There's also a deeper strategy, always parameters I would never have thought of, etc.

I think folks sitting at their computers who have never been put in a life threatening situation should understand that they don't have even a fraction of the information necessary to make an informed opinion on such a topic.

(On related note, if you DO want to maybe learn a little more about what happens in these situations and get a more informed opinion on them, I highly highly highly highly recommend two books written by Dave Grossman. The first is called "On Killing", and the second is called "On Combat". They're both geared towards military and law enforcement and are meant as a deep-dive into exactly what happens in a life threatening situation. That includes both the psychology and the often-overlooked physiological effects of killing someone else and being in a situation where you could be killed. It's absolutely fascinating and these books have become great training sources for both military and law enforcement. If I had my way, they'd also be required reading for anyone who buys a gun.

To repeat, I'll never ever claim to know what a cop or soldier goes through in a gunfight....but these books have at least given me a peek behind the curtains a bit and I'm extremely glad that I've read them.)


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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:52 pm 
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Louis Lipps Service wrote:
And I believe that to be a question that no one who has never done that type of job before is even remotely qualified to answer.
I actually don't agree with that. Slippery slope, 'n'shit. But agree with most everything else.

Much of law enforcement today are former military men and women. They have been trained to meet force with overwhelming force in return, and still have the military protocols firmly engrained in their head. Instead of serve and protect, it's occupy and control. I think shoot first, ask questions later has become quite rampant. And no. Not all cops are like that.

I hate to say it, but getting shot dead is one of the hazards of the job. If you don't want to take the risk, don't become a cop. You don't have more rights than the average citizen. Just a bit more authority, and many abuse that authority. Cops can't be the only ones determining when it's ok to use deadly force.

I firmly believe protocols for life threatening situations should in fact have non law enforcement people factor into the forming of those protocols. Otherwise, we have a military state, where law enforcement makes up their own morality, justifying needless deaths. Which is kinda what some do already, claiming "I thought he had a gun" or "I felt threatened." Civilians should be involved in determining where that thin blue line is drawn. It's not a black and white issue, although many cops boil it down to that in order to justify their actions. Actions have consequences, so if you don't want to go to jail for killing innocents, don't fire on a fleeing child.

Having said that, I'm a bit surprised this cop is being prosecuted. A kid jumps out of a car involved in a drive by with weapons in the car. The other running kid was the shooter, who was later apprehended. What's to prevent this kid from hiding behind a building corner and returning fire? On the other hand, I don't condone shooting someone in the back. Even if they are a criminal. Besides, punishment should be commensurate with the crime. A drive by where nobody was injured doesn't merit the death penalty.

/shrug. My 2 cents.

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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:21 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
They have been trained to meet force with overwhelming force in return, and still have the military protocols firmly engrained in their head. Instead of serve and protect, it's occupy and control. I think shoot first, ask questions later has become quite rampant. And no. Not all cops are like that.


Unfortunately, there's not reliable data to back up that opinion. We have no idea if unlawful use of force and unnecessary shootings have increased over the years. We still don't even have good data on that today.

My guess is the answer is OPPOSITE of what you have posited, that these incidents are on the decline because of 1) an increase in scrutiny and social media attention and 2) an overall decline in violent crime and shootings and 3) better training over the years as a result of various high profile incidents. That wouldn't be mutually exclusive to your point about former military becoming cops, but would deflect from what is most likely an overall positive trend.

Of course, when police shootings are very selectively promoted to national news and just hammered incessantly....then opinions and perceptions become manipulated and not necessarily aligned with reality.

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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:28 pm 
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After a car chase, the cop's blood is worked up. That is a known fact. Some areas will not let police give chase in high speed pursuits because they become unsafe. It is human nature to not want to let go. you will get angry that the person is running away.

SAying all that and living it are two different things. As I understand it, the cop was brand new. I expect he shot the boy to stop him from running. I also guess in court they will say the cop thought the boy had a firearm. He has to say that or it is a cut and dry case against the cop.

https://www.policeone.com/health-fitnes ... ncounters/

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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:59 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
After a car chase, the cop's blood is worked up. That is a known fact. Some areas will not let police give chase in high speed pursuits because they become unsafe. It is human nature to not want to let go. you will get angry that the person is running away.


It's obvious why the lawful use of deadly force is pretty clearly defined.

But I imagine letting a guy go that you believe just shot and killed someone is tough. One could think someone else is going to die if you let that guy get away. Not the right attitude for a cop to have, but understandable perhaps.

I'm curious how many people run and actually get away. In a major metro, there are so many cops on scene so quickly that I'd expect there's almost no chance that guy gets away.

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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:17 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
After a car chase, the cop's blood is worked up. That is a known fact. Some areas will not let police give chase in high speed pursuits because they become unsafe. It is human nature to not want to let go. you will get angry that the person is running away.

SAying all that and living it are two different things. As I understand it, the cop was brand new. I expect he shot the boy to stop him from running. I also guess in court they will say the cop thought the boy had a firearm. He has to say that or it is a cut and dry case against the cop.

https://www.policeone.com/health-fitnes ... ncounters/
The cop wasn't new. He had worked for the University of Pgh when discharged because of mistreating a black student. He had done police work prior. I think 7 years. And no, not former military. That was just a off the cuff hypothesis.

As to your first statement, that's why countries (read USA, Israel) go to war unnecessarily. Putin is learning this as well. Now he has a frozen conflict in Ukraine, and the IDF are considered the best trained outside the US.

Reproducing combat is impossible. You can train, and conduct war games, but you can't emulate live fire. Having skirmishes now and again keeps your military sharp. I know people always strive for peacetime, but you can be goddamn sure there doesn't go 5-10 years without some kind of conflict. WW1, WW2, Korean war, and few years later Viet Nam. Then Grenada, Desert Storm, Afghanistan, Iraq, and scores of army bases throughout the world. I'm not saying that's the only reason those conflicts existed or exist, but If I were a military general. . . It took the US a couple of years to gear up for ww2 with training and the manufacture of arms and equipment. They had few experienced combat "boots on the ground." Not officers, regular army guys. Besides, technology changed a great deal between the two great wars. They haven't got caught with their pants down since. Just for shits and giggles -

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a190844.pdf

The tactical implications of combat inexperience. 1987.

Again, my 2 cents.

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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:23 pm 
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Quote:
In a major metro, there are so many cops on scene so quickly that I'd expect there's almost no chance that guy gets away.
Just goes to show how uninformed you are. Or you've never been to North Braddock. They have exactly eight police officers. Count 'em, 8. They don't even have a training or policy manual. Ask swiss about Braddock.

And I just found out the statement released by the police department that he had an empty 9mm clip in his pocket was false; as an excuse. Not true.

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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:58 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Quote:
In a major metro, there are so many cops on scene so quickly that I'd expect there's almost no chance that guy gets away.
Just goes to show how uninformed you are.


LOL, well, I was speaking in a general/hypothetical sense with respect to cops giving up a chase. Obviously I'm not a pyschologist who was inside this specific cops head when I talked about why it might be tough to give up a chase.

I'm glad you found me to be uninformed, rather than insightful. It actually explains a lot about you and how you arrive at your opinions.


And, by the way, a second cop car has already pulled up right when the shots are fired, with more sirens heard nearby.

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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:00 pm 
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Quote:
so if you don't want to go to jail for killing innocents, don't fire on a fleeing child.


If you don’t want to get shot by a cop, don’t spend your evenings doing drive byes (also called attempted murder) and then flee once caught.


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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:43 pm 
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And here I thought this country was based on the presumption of innocence, not guilt.

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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:46 am 
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For me it boils down to, Simply Cooperate with the Authorities and Don't run or resist and you'll live to see another day.


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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:37 pm 
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COR-TEN wrote:
Quote:
In a major metro, there are so many cops on scene so quickly that I'd expect there's almost no chance that guy gets away.
Just goes to show how uninformed you are. Or you've never been to North Braddock. They have exactly eight police officers. Count 'em, 8. They don't even have a training or policy manual. Ask swiss about Braddock.

And I just found out the statement released by the police department that he had an empty 9mm clip in his pocket was false; as an excuse. Not true.


Since you mentioned me, Cor-Ten, I'll way in. Yeah, Braddock & North Braddock both have way diminished populations. Braddock lost its hospital, had no restaurants, had a dollar store, that was about it. Finally, a Swissvale guy opened up Peppers N'At in Braddock a couple years ago.

Anyway....one of the news headlines that I HATE is whenever someone is continually described as...."The Unarmed Black Man." In this case, the occupants of the car had executed a drive-by, kid was found with an empty clip in his pockets, and there were two guns in the car. Yeah, I guess the cop fucked up.....but that kid certainly wasn't doing what he should have been,


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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:21 am 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
For me it boils down to, Simply Cooperate with the Authorities and Don't run or resist and you'll live to see another day.


Yeah....go figure. To be fair, like 1 in 1M get shot dead for doing nothing wrong.

But it would be hard to argue the agenda in that. Which tells you everything.

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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:25 am 
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COR-TEN wrote:
And here I thought this country was based on the presumption of innocence, not guilt.


Are you sure this isn't just an "incovenient truth" for you?

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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:46 am 
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COR-TEN wrote:

I hate to say it, but getting shot dead is one of the hazards of the job. If you don't want to take the risk, don't become a cop. You don't have more rights than the average citizen. Just a bit more authority, and many abuse that authority. Cops can't be the only ones determining when it's ok to use deadly force.

Civilians should be involved in determining where that thin blue line is drawn. It's not a black and white issue, although many cops boil it down to that in order to justify their actions. Actions have consequences, so if you don't want to go to jail for killing innocents, don't fire on a fleeing child.

.


So you want a citizens task force to develop guidelines for deadly force? This is the same group of people who more than 50% can't be bothered to get their asses out to vote. And this is the same group of people who according to some were "brainwashed" into electing our current POTUS.

I'd love to see the idyllic society that you must live in that this somehow seems feasible to you.


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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:12 pm 
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There are already guidelinesfor use of force. Anyone getting out of a car and fleeing should not be shot unless they were carrying a weapon. These officers must make decisions in a second. Sometimes it is the wrong decision. If they do it more than once then they need to be fired and never hired again as a law enforcement officer.

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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:34 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
There are already guidelinesfor use of force. Anyone getting out of a car and fleeing should not be shot unless they were carrying a weapon. r.


From your link:

There is no single, universally agreed-upon definition of use of force. The International Association of Chiefs of Police has described use of force as the "amount of effort required by police to compel compliance by an unwilling subject" [1].

Officers receive guidance from their individual agencies, but no universal set of rules governs when officers should use force and how much.

****************
So your post seems contradictory?


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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:08 pm 
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swissvale72 wrote:
COR-TEN wrote:
Quote:
In a major metro, there are so many cops on scene so quickly that I'd expect there's almost no chance that guy gets away.
Just goes to show how uninformed you are. Or you've never been to North Braddock. They have exactly eight police officers. Count 'em, 8. They don't even have a training or policy manual. Ask swiss about Braddock.

And I just found out the statement released by the police department that he had an empty 9mm clip in his pocket was false; as an excuse. Not true.


Since you mentioned me, Cor-Ten, I'll way in. Yeah, Braddock & North Braddock both have way diminished populations. Braddock lost its hospital, had no restaurants, had a dollar store, that was about it. Finally, a Swissvale guy opened up Peppers N'At in Braddock a couple years ago.

Anyway....one of the news headlines that I HATE is whenever someone is continually described as...."The Unarmed Black Man." In this case, the occupants of the car had executed a drive-by, kid was found with an empty clip in his pockets, and there were two guns in the car. Yeah, I guess the cop fucked up.....but that kid certainly wasn't doing what he should have been,


Don't forget the smiling photo of the kid probably from his middle school years is always used. It really seems like the fact that he was just involved in a drive by shooting is irrelevant to most media sources or protesters.

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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:42 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
jebrick wrote:
There are already guidelinesfor use of force. Anyone getting out of a car and fleeing should not be shot unless they were carrying a weapon. r.


From your link:

There is no single, universally agreed-upon definition of use of force. The International Association of Chiefs of Police has described use of force as the "amount of effort required by police to compel compliance by an unwilling subject" [1].

Officers receive guidance from their individual agencies, but no universal set of rules governs when officers should use force and how much.

****************
So your post seems contradictory?


In Tennessee vs. Garner in 1985, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that an officer cannot use deadly force against a fleeing suspect unless the suspect is a significant threat to the officer or to others.

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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:32 pm 
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SteelPro wrote:
Donnie Brasco wrote:
jebrick wrote:
There are already guidelinesfor use of force. Anyone getting out of a car and fleeing should not be shot unless they were carrying a weapon. r.


From your link:

There is no single, universally agreed-upon definition of use of force. The International Association of Chiefs of Police has described use of force as the "amount of effort required by police to compel compliance by an unwilling subject" [1].

Officers receive guidance from their individual agencies, but no universal set of rules governs when officers should use force and how much.

****************
So your post seems contradictory?


In Tennessee vs. Garner in 1985, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that an officer cannot use deadly force against a fleeing suspect unless the suspect is a significant threat to the officer or to others.


Isn't that a bit vague? If I'm an officer and a guy is running from me and I believe he has a weapon I can just say "well if I let him get away, he could have used that weapon (gun/knife/car) against unsuspecting civilians". It's an easy catch-all.

I'm not trying to be a dick or be argumentative, just to understand this better.

Again I believe that being a cop has to be one of the most harrowing jobs one could ever imagine.
Is the dude pulling out his wallet to willfully comply or is that a gun? You have to decide in less than 1 second.


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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:48 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
SteelPro wrote:

In Tennessee vs. Garner in 1985, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that an officer cannot use deadly force against a fleeing suspect unless the suspect is a significant threat to the officer or to others.


Isn't that a bit vague? If I'm an officer and a guy is running from me and I believe he has a weapon I can just say "well if I let him get away, he could have used that weapon (gun/knife/car) against unsuspecting civilians". It's an easy catch-all.

I'm not trying to be a dick or be argumentative, just to understand this better.

Again I believe that being a cop has to be one of the most harrowing jobs one could ever imagine.
Is the dude pulling out his wallet to willfully comply or is that a gun? You have to decide in less than 1 second.

I know you aren’t being a dick, and I agree with you. At the end of the day no matter what the guidelines are it will come down to a judgement call by the officer. And he or she doesn’t get a chance to review it on instant replay.

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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:13 pm 
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Donnie Brasco wrote:
Isn't that a bit vague? If I'm an officer and a guy is running from me and I believe he has a weapon I can just say "well if I let him get away, he could have used that weapon (gun/knife/car) against unsuspecting civilians". It's an easy catch-all.

I'm not trying to be a dick or be argumentative, just to understand this better.

Again I believe that being a cop has to be one of the most harrowing jobs one could ever imagine.
Is the dude pulling out his wallet to willfully comply or is that a gun? You have to decide in less than 1 second.


All handled under Garner. Does the police officer believe that the fleeing person poses a threat to the community? Did the officer see a weapon? Is the suspect fleeing from a violent crime? If the answers to these are yes then the police will be fine in court.

In the Rose case, the suspect is fleeing from a driveby shooting so it would be reasonable for the officer to think that the suspect had a weapon. Unless the officer has a record of excessive force, charging him is a placating measure for the community. There is no reasonable judge who would convict him. But it does look bad.

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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:12 am 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
For me it boils down to, Simply Cooperate with the Authorities and Don't run or resist and you'll live to see another day.


Tell that to the families of Philando Castile and Eric Garner.

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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 4:18 pm 
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fortythree wrote:
Steelafan77 wrote:
For me it boils down to, Simply Cooperate with the Authorities and Don't run or resist and you'll live to see another day.


Tell that to the families of Philando Castile and Eric Garner.


Well, Eric Garner was resisting arrest/orders...so probably come up with a better example.

It's also a double-edged sword - the more people run/resist or attempt to assault officers, the more alert and aggressive officers are going to be. If we're being completely honest, if no one ever shot at the cops then our cops wouldn't even have guns.

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 Post subject: Re: Protests/Possible Riots
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2018 6:09 pm 
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Jesus fucking christ.

Garner was selling unlicensed cigarettes. Fucking cigarettes.

And choke holds were banned.

Fuck this country is fucked.

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