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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:15 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Benefits (protections) yes, but also cost of regulations.


Regulatory costs and fines/penalties are all separate from taxes. Companies are paying all that and it has little to do with taxes.

Taxes are little more than the government decides it will spend X, and then it tries to go find the money. The MAIN reason you have property taxes, corporate taxes, state taxes, local taxes, sales taxes, water taxes, gas taxes, tolls, excise taxes, capital gains, estate taxes, etc etc etc....is a result partly of progressive taxation, but primarily because one tax rate in the 70-80% range creates more incentive and opportunity for evasion. You're more likely to comply if you get a lot of little knicks instead of one gashing cut.

Everything else is noise. Economists and policy makers don't really talk about "fair share" when it comes to taxation. They talk about the tax base, efficiency, effectiveness and economic impact....a.k.a "what's the best way to raise however much money we need?" Whether or not corporations should be taxed isn't really relevant to the discussion - they're taxed because we can, and not taxing them hasn't been considered to be the most effective way to raise revenues.

There is not one single tax that can't be eliminated. The challenge for policy makers is if you eliminate one revenue source, it may be difficult to replace that money by raising rates somewhere else. Yes, I shit you not Pelosi once referred to tax cuts as "spending choices".

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:27 am 
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Sift through and see where your state ranks.... http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-th ... rth-2018-3
California on Average.
[Median household income: $64,500, Regional price parity out of 100: 113.4, Real income: $56,878]


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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:25 pm 
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Steelafan77 wrote:
Sift through and see where your state ranks.... http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-th ... rth-2018-3
California on Average.
[Median household income: $64,500, Regional price parity out of 100: 113.4, Real income: $56,878]


Surprising how close the "real income" is in most states. More surprsing how much higher it is in several east coast states.

But it should be pointed out we are talking state averages....those numbers tell you virtually nothing about NY City, SF, San Diego, Chicago, Boston, etc.. If you're not living near the beach in CA, it's probably reasonably affordable....except then what would the point of living in CA be - move to Arizona for the same weather, or Vegas where there are no taxes.

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:59 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Benefits (protections) yes, but also cost of regulations.


Regulatory costs and fines/penalties are all separate from taxes. Companies are paying all that and it has little to do with taxes.

Taxes are little more than the government decides it will spend X, and then it tries to go find the money. The MAIN reason you have property taxes, corporate taxes, state taxes, local taxes, sales taxes, water taxes, gas taxes, tolls, excise taxes, capital gains, estate taxes, etc etc etc....is a result partly of progressive taxation, but primarily because one tax rate in the 70-80% range creates more incentive and opportunity for evasion. You're more likely to comply if you get a lot of little knicks instead of one gashing cut.

Everything else is noise. Economists and policy makers don't really talk about "fair share" when it comes to taxation. They talk about the tax base, efficiency, effectiveness and economic impact....a.k.a "what's the best way to raise however much money we need?" Whether or not corporations should be taxed isn't really relevant to the discussion - they're taxed because we can, and not taxing them hasn't been considered to be the most effective way to raise revenues.

There is not one single tax that can't be eliminated. The challenge for policy makers is if you eliminate one revenue source, it may be difficult to replace that money by raising rates somewhere else. Yes, I shit you not Pelosi once referred to tax cuts as "spending choices".


I'm going to humbly point out that none of what you posted shows why corporations should not at all be taxed.

Further, if companies have to pay regulation costs, why are you not complaining that citizens financially invested in these companies are just being double taxed by another means?

I'll just restate my dumb, stubborn position:
(1) Business is protected by the government and those protections cost money so corporations have an obligation to pay in if they want those protections.
(2) Business requires regulations and regulations cost money and so business must pay in (Does it really matter that factually regulation costs are separate from taxation? It is still money taken from the corporation to pay the cost of stuff the government imposes.)

You are making a point about how taxation actually works (god knows, you know more about it than me, without a doubt).

I do not care about that.

You said corporations should not be taxed at all. I have said why I think that is wrong. My argument may be really lousy, but you have not yet shown why, unless I am misunderstanding you (which is also, obviously, a real possibility).

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:07 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
I'm going to humbly point out that none of what you posted shows why corporations should not at all be taxed.


I've not only explained why corporations don't need to be taxed and shouldn't be taxed, but explained WHY they are taxed. Despite your claims to the contrary, you probably need to go back and re-read.

Businesses DO PAY for regulatory costs and other protections, and often do so directly, and both public (such as registration costs, fines) and private sector (such as audits, certifications, etc). And there's also a social welfare purpose for a lot of the rest, which benefits consumers and citizens, which is why THEY pay for those services with their taxes.

And I'll just blow up this argument one last final time by pointing out, again, 95% of companies ARE NOT TAXED. So I think that proves taxing corporations is not necessary. When people form companies, they choose to be an LLC, LLP, C Corp or an S Corp. Except for the C Corp, the other forms all CHOOSE how they will be taxed, and for 95% of companies it's pass-thru, which means all profits accrue to the owners and taxed just once, at the individual level. I feel like I've already explained this once or twice.

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:57 pm 
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I’ll reread. But even if 95% are not taxed, that’s descriptive, not normative. My claims are normative. The fact that most are not taxed does not mean they ought not be. Surely you see the distinction. Whether it is necessary is relative to the standard. Surely you see that, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:45 am 
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As most small biz owners know.....the "problem" at the end of most years is what do do with that extra profit in the business account. You do nothing and it gets taxed. So you either give yourself a nice bonus(personal taxes withheld like any other paycheck) , donate to a charity, upgrade equipment, or a little of everything to get your profit/loss balanced. Pass thru...no corporate tax.

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:29 am 
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Still Lit wrote:
But until the government gets its shit together regarding spending, we need to tax everything, IMO.

Whaaaaaaat?!?!? :shock: :? :cry:

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:04 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
I’ll reread. But even if 95% are not taxed, that’s descriptive, not normative. My claims are normative. The fact that most are not taxed does not mean they ought not be. Surely you see the distinction. Whether it is necessary is relative to the standard. Surely you see that, too.


You can argue we should be taxing them all you want, but against most every economist would disagree with you. Taxing income is suboptimal and hurts growth. Because it's double taxation, you simply don't need it to collect the same revenues. I can tax the business owner AND his business, or I can collect the same amount of money just taxing him once at a higher level on his personal income.

Your argument doesn't appear to be based on anything correct or logically sound. There is not one good reason for taxing corporations, other than it makes it easier for Uncle Sam to collect and audit. What you "feel" isn't any kind of argument. You've not come up with a single good reason why it should be that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:05 am 
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Y-Town Steel wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
But until the government gets its shit together regarding spending, we need to tax everything, IMO.

Whaaaaaaat?!?!? :shock: :? :cry:


Yep....Another sheeple. What is shocking is that you'd think that Lit would know better. But apparently he doesn't care.

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:43 am 
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So do 95% of the corporations not pay taxes because they do not make enough or is it because they make enough investments or have lost enough money to qualify for tax breaks?

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:38 am 
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jebrick wrote:
So do 95% of the corporations not pay taxes because they do not make enough or is it because they make enough investments or have lost enough money to qualify for tax breaks?


I think it's mostly because, for example, a Corporation makes 10 million gross income, they have a 5 million payroll, 3 million in expenses, and then that last 2 million they either invest in new technology, equipment, expansion, or bonuses to employees so they don't have a surplus which would be taxed at corporate rates. So if it's passed through to the employees it's taxed at personal income tax rates.

The smarter guys can correct me if I'm wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:17 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
So do 95% of the corporations not pay taxes because they do not make enough or is it because they make enough investments or have lost enough money to qualify for tax breaks?


It's because when they formed their company, they elected to have pass-thru taxation. The company is not taxed - it's all taxed on the individual income tax returns.

And, in a nutshell, that's why the whole corporate tax thing is head-bashingly stupid. But it's a political football, now.

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Last edited by Kodiak on Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:33 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:20 pm 
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R S wrote:
So if it's passed through to the employees it's taxed at personal income tax rates.


I don't know what the form is called. but if I elected pass-thru taxation and my company makes $2M....then I have $2M on my personal income taxes, regardless of what amount I took in distributions out of the company. Kodiak LLC does not file or pay taxes (that's what pass-thru means).

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:06 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
R S wrote:
So if it's passed through to the employees it's taxed at personal income tax rates.


I don't know what the form is called. but if I elected pass-thru taxation and my company makes $2M....then I have $2M on my personal income taxes, regardless of what amount I took in distributions out of the company. Kodiak LLC does not file or pay taxes (that's what pass-thru means).


I see. This is what Trump did when his Casino went under and he wa sable to take it was a tax break for the next 10 years. Thanks. did not know that.

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:49 pm 
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no, i don't think that has anything to do with what's being discussed here.

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:53 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
Y-Town Steel wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
But until the government gets its shit together regarding spending, we need to tax everything, IMO.

Whaaaaaaat?!?!? :shock: :? :cry:


Yep....Another sheeple. What is shocking is that you'd think that Lit would know better. But apparently he doesn't care.


Look. That’s hardly a fair comment. My point is that we should pay for what we spend. My point is not that we should be spending what we are spending.

And I never said you were wrong about what you said about taxes. I said you had not yet shown why my argument is wrong. I may be wrong. I may be a sheeple. But I sure as shit can keep an argument straight. 8-)

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:44 pm 
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https://www.ctj.org/fact-sheet-why-we-need-the-corporate-income-tax/

Discuss.

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:14 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:


I get #1,,,i don't have time to read them all. I own an S-Corp. Any "retained" profits at the end of they year are subject to corporate tax rates. That forces me to either...pay out bonuses(taxed), reinvest in the company(taxed) or a couple other options. Otherwise I could sit on that profit and do nothing or save it for a rainy day. That would be nice, but I own a very small business of less than 10 employees. I suppose there are in depth ways to take advantage of loopholes for large corporations so we need the taxes. For the little guys, not so much.

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:02 am 
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Poltargyst wrote:



Yeah, that article is garbage that understands nothing about tax or economics. I've already destroyed every argument it makes. There are really no good, nor sentient, points made in that article.

Also, most economists agree that taxes are passed on to the consumer. So, there's that. When I see an article pretending otherwise, then I know it's propaganda or completely ignorant.

The main point of that article is "hey!, if we don't tax this money, it's deferred indefitinetly". Well, that's already largely true whether you tax corporations or not. The fact is a good share of corporations ARE owned by mutual funds and pensions, so if you want true progressive taxation, then you change personal income rates and don't tax corporations.

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:07 am 
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jebrick wrote:

I see. This is what Trump did when his Casino went under and he wa sable to take it was a tax break for the next 10 years. Thanks. did not know that.


This sounds like a really dumb and ignorant comment. If you want to make political statements, try not to look like a dumbass hick when doing so.

I'm no fan of Trump, but that's some dumbass hit you posted.

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:54 am 
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Kodiak wrote:
jebrick wrote:

I see. This is what Trump did when his Casino went under and he wa sable to take it was a tax break for the next 10 years. Thanks. did not know that.


This sounds like a really dumb and ignorant comment. If you want to make political statements, try not to look like a dumbass hick when doing so.

I'm no fan of Trump, but that's some dumbass hit you posted.


It is not meant to be a political post but a statement of fact in relation to understanding the question. Since I do not know of any other company that has publicly disclosed that they are a pass-thru, I was merely pointing out an example that others may know. To state that a privately held company used this in their taxes and how in some cases it benefits them is part of a conversation. That the company happens to be run by a controversial figure can't be helped. That the company did nothing wrong in so far as the law because of how their company is structured is part of the conversation. We could also talk about how Apple or 3M is structured and how they move money off shore in a legal way to avoid taxes but that has not been brought up.

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:44 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
Kodiak wrote:
jebrick wrote:

I see. This is what Trump did when his Casino went under and he wa sable to take it was a tax break for the next 10 years. Thanks. did not know that.


This sounds like a really dumb and ignorant comment. If you want to make political statements, try not to look like a dumbass hick when doing so.

I'm no fan of Trump, but that's some dumbass hit you posted.


It is not meant to be a political post but a statement of fact in relation to understanding the question. Since I do not know of any other company that has publicly disclosed that they are a pass-thru, I was merely pointing out an example that others may know. To state that a privately held company used this in their taxes and how in some cases it benefits them is part of a conversation. That the company happens to be run by a controversial figure can't be helped. That the company did nothing wrong in so far as the law because of how their company is structured is part of the conversation. We could also talk about how Apple or 3M is structured and how they move money off shore in a legal way to avoid taxes but that has not been brought up.


It's entirely unrelated to what Trump did with one of his casinos. It sounded, and appears to be, an ignorant politard comment. I re-read the above twice, and I have no idea what point you're trying to make, and I KNOW you don't, either.

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 10:05 am 
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But Trump....... Trump derangement syndrome.....not matter the topic or conversation, it triggers a reference to Donald J Trump....

eg. Scientist have recently discovered a new medication for the fight against cancer. "Trump will never let cancer be cured"

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 Post subject: Re: Reuben Foster to the Can
PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:13 am 
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R S wrote:
But Trump....... Trump derangement syndrome.....not matter the topic or conversation, it triggers a reference to Donald J Trump....

eg. Scientist have recently discovered a new medication for the fight against cancer. "Trump will never let cancer be cured"


Bingo.

Everyone has that crazy ass right-wing Uncle. But what Trump has exposed is that MOST liberals are just as fucking stupid. Concepts of hippocritical and double-standard are foreign to them (unless talking immigration). Which in some respects probably makes them even dumber.

And Trump IS a jackass idiot. But he's unintentionally exposed that most voters are even dumber.

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