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 Post subject: Re: Ravens
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:26 pm 
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bradshaw2ben wrote:
Gonzo wrote:
B2b your analysis is solid but we reach absolutely different conclusions from it.
Tou are describing largely a square peg round hole problem and either the refusal to change or an inability to view things otherwise.

That has been the biggest gripe form me for years - the insistence on playing a certain style of football while ignoring the key things that make that style potentially successful. To me it shows a failure to understand the components, an inability or refusal to change or a teamwide cultural Malaise.

I don't see how you can draw the solid observations you make and then pivot to blame others and absolve the HC. Especially when his tenure shows a clear pattern that you have aptly described.

It may be institutional and our draft failures or disconnect between philosophy and drafting are sinking the ship. If it is institutional, I don't think the current HC is the man for the job.

And I will openly state I don't care about some level of minimum hollow success.

It's not minimum hollow success, first off. About 30 teams in the league would kill to have the level of success we've had since 2006.

There's no phantom team-wide cultural malaise. Sometimes you can do everything right and it still doesn't work out. I think the style of play issue is less of an issue now than it was three years ago when they were still trusting the old vets on D-- there really wasn't much different in our approach last week vs the Patriots-- at least in terms of the game plan.

The adjustments made in game and, more importantly, the use of plays to set up other plays-- that's the element that's missing, and that's what you have coordinators for. I'm not absolving the HC in the dysfunction; his part in personnel and in managing his coaches is his and his alone...and both are issues.

We'll see someday, if the OC goes on to greener pastures. Here's a question-- do you see the same approach to the overall game plan and personnel use with Butler as DC vs Lebeau?


I should have chosen a better word than malaise. A better word is likely stale or stuck in a rut.

I see different personnel,use but not a change in general flow

And we will see how this is viewed someday as we move further and further away from the SB appearance


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 Post subject: Re: Ravens
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:36 pm 
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Lifelongsteel wrote:
I did a quick look at the past 3 seasons - from what I can tell we've lost 5 total games against poor teams with Ben playing

2016 - Dolphins (maybe not a poor team after all)
2015 - Ravens, Saints
2014 - Jets, Bucs

I was actually expecting quite a few more

Maybe Ben playing/not playing has more of an impact on our ability to beat bad teams than Tomlin's ability to get the team motivated


Let's also not forget they struggled mightily against 3-13 Jacksonville and 2-14 Tennessee in 2014.

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 Post subject: Re: Ravens
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 11:38 pm 
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BarryFoster wrote:
SteelPowerful = Fiddy?


It's been a while but was Fiddy the one pretending to be Striker, the college girl volleyball player?

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 Post subject: Re: Ravens
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:41 am 
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Obviously wrote:
Lifelongsteel wrote:
I did a quick look at the past 3 seasons - from what I can tell we've lost 5 total games against poor teams with Ben playing

2016 - Dolphins (maybe not a poor team after all)
2015 - Ravens, Saints
2014 - Jets, Bucs

I was actually expecting quite a few more

Maybe Ben playing/not playing has more of an impact on our ability to beat bad teams than Tomlin's ability to get the team motivated


Let's also not forget they struggled mightily against 3-13 Jacksonville and 2-14 Tennessee in 2014.

let's face it-- they were not a good team in 2014.

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 Post subject: Re: Ravens
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:08 am 
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This "overconfidence" meme is pretty weak. We are underprepared to face these "inferior" opponents.


So why are we underprepared against inferior opponents? "Overconfidence meme pretty weak" ?

You fail to answer the question. This team under-prepares because they take these teams lightly. They are over confident from the top down against inferior competition. Why are they not "under-prepared" for respectable opponents? What is your explanation? Do you even have one?

Regardless of what you think, all indications are that they do not respect inferior opponents. This is not the case with the Brady, the Patriots, and Belichick.


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 Post subject: Re: Ravens
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:33 am 
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SteelPowerful wrote:
Quote:
This "overconfidence" meme is pretty weak. We are underprepared to face these "inferior" opponents.


So why are we underprepared against inferior opponents? "Overconfidence meme pretty weak" ?

You fail to answer the question. This team under-prepares because they take these teams lightly. They are over confident from the top down against inferior competition. Why are they not "under-prepared" for respectable opponents? What is your explanation? Do you even have one?

Regardless of what you think, all indications are that they do not respect inferior opponents. This is not the case with the Brady, the Patriots, and Belichick.


I can agree with that. It's a leadership problem. If it's Ben, then it's Tomlins fault he doesn't correcct it. Otherwise it's just Tomlin's fault. Either way. It falls on Tomlin

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 Post subject: Re: Ravens
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:44 am 
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I don't think it's over confidence at all
I think it is the way they choose to play generally and a choice of stable predictable style versus game by game analysis.

Against weak teams this bend, control, time wastIng style creates opportunities for weaker opponents to hang around and make a play be it real or fluky or for us to make a stupid play. This is exacerbated currently by a poor pass D

Against better teams this will do the same and allow us to hang with them.

Occasionally we make plays early and bury a team and occasionally we run into a bad match up and gt even buzz sawed like against Philly.

I don't personally care for this approach but I do recognize it's value

My main gripe with the current leadership is that they have chosen this style but haven't built a team suited for this style and don't seem to stress the physicality and execution/discipline elements that this style demands. They talk a physical game now and then but that is not mirrored on the field IMHO? I als agree partly with others that just because you play that style doesn't mean - especially on O - you can't be creative and dynamic and I think haleys play calling and obviousness harm the O especially this particular QB. Slightly similar thought on D but there I do have to come to grips with the lack of talent. And that is in large part due to draft failures.


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 Post subject: Re: Ravens
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 12:48 pm 
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Gonzo wrote:
I don't think it's over confidence at all
I think it is the way they choose to play generally and a choice of stable predictable style versus game by game analysis.

Against weak teams this bend, control, time wastIng style creates opportunities for weaker opponents to hang around and make a play be it real or fluky or for us to make a stupid play. This is exacerbated currently by a poor pass D

Against better teams this will do the same and allow us to hang with them.

Occasionally we make plays early and bury a team and occasionally we run into a bad match up and gt even buzz sawed like against Philly.

I don't personally care for this approach but I do recognize it's value

My main gripe with the current leadership is that they have chosen this style but haven't built a team suited for this style and don't seem to stress the physicality and execution/discipline elements that this style demands. They talk a physical game now and then but that is not mirrored on the field IMHO? I als agree partly with others that just because you play that style doesn't mean - especially on O - you can't be creative and dynamic and I think haleys play calling and obviousness harm the O especially this particular QB. Slightly similar thought on D but there I do have to come to grips with the lack of talent. And that is in large part due to draft failures.


I disagree with your assessment that the team still plays to keep the game close. Evidence is against your assertion.

I think this team is wholly dependent upon execution on offense.

When they get it, they dominate. When they don't, it's a crapshoot because their defense sucks.

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 Post subject: Re: Ravens
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:53 pm 
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I didn't necessarily say it's keep it close football. It is football that's tries to limit the number of opponent possessions via wasting and using time on O and bending on D.

And all offences are predicated mostly on execution. Offensive mistakes cost the steelers dearly because the D isn't dependable or dynamic and limiting possessions cuts both ways


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 Post subject: Re: Ravens
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:17 pm 
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SteelPowerful wrote:
Quote:
This "overconfidence" meme is pretty weak. We are underprepared to face these "inferior" opponents.


So why are we underprepared against inferior opponents? "Overconfidence meme pretty weak" ?

You fail to answer the question. This team under-prepares because they take these teams lightly. They are over confident from the top down against inferior competition. Why are they not "under-prepared" for respectable opponents? What is your explanation? Do you even have one?

Regardless of what you think, all indications are that they do not respect inferior opponents. This is not the case with the Brady, the Patriots, and Belichick.


If true none of those coaches should still be on staff.. And several vets need a kick in the ass.

Leaving Hubbard with little help isn't an overconfidence issue its a lack of attention to detail and forethought issue.


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