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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:07 pm 
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The Weekly Standard has a good write up on this from a Conservative standpoint, for those interested. These were specially poignant:

Quote:
(7) Yet in an important sense, none of this argument is really about police misconduct, per se. It’s about the institutional response to police misconduct.

Think about the Catholic Church’s priest-abuse scandal. The scandal wasn’t that there was a small number of priests who abused their charges. This sort of evil behavior has happened for centuries and will continue to happen for centuries more because people are fallible, all people, even priests.

No, the “scandal” was that the bishops observed this evil behavior and then tried to cover it up.

The same is true for police misconduct.

If police officers who acted badly faced criminal consequences for their behavior most of the time, then I suspect that society would not get so upset about incidents of misconduct. It would be much easier to accept the few-bad-apples explanation and move on about our lives accepting that the benefits of police outweigh the costs.

But does not seem to be the case. Look at the Eric Garner incident, where the local prosecutor presented charges against the police officer who killed garner to a grand jury—but managed to do so in such a way that the officer was not indicted, but the bystander who videotaped the murder was.

It took more than two years for Cleveland to fire the cop who shot 12-year-old Tamir Rice seconds after arriving at the park where Rice played with a pellet gun—and the firing was for lying on his application, not the fatal shooting. That officer never faced charges, but even when cops are forced to go through the criminal justice system, convictions are rare, as happened with the man who shot Philando Castille.

Look at the murder of Walter Scott. Scott was gunned down by a police officer while unarmed and running away. The officer then called in a false report, claiming that Scott had assaulted him, and then calmly planted evidence on Scott’s body. The officer got off on state charges and was convicted on federal charges—but only after a videotape of the incident surfaced. And having been caught lying about a citizen and planting evidence, the municipality seems to have done nothing to investigate the officer’s previous arrests. (Planting evidence may happen more frequently than we might hope.)

For Pete’s sake, in 1981 police arrested Mitt Romney—Mitt Romney!—for “disorderly conduct,” which is one of the ways that police level false charges against citizens when they’re in a bad mood. Go read the story of the arrest. The charges were dropped only because Romney threatened to sue the officer for false arrest. Which is fine. But in a rational world, the officer who committed the false arrest should have lost his job.

Paid agents of the state should not be allowed to knowingly make false charges against the citizenry. Full stop. If you can’t trust a police officer’s judgment in charging a crime, how can you possibly trust his judgment in the use of deadly force?
........
(9) All of that said, qua protest, the Star-Spangled kneel-down is probably the most respectful form of protest, ever. Football players aren't turning their backs on the flag. They're not raising the black-power fist. Kneeling is reverent. It's what we do at the most solemn moments in church. As Gabriel Malor puts it, the tenor of the protest isn’t that America is bad or evil: “they're kneeling to indicate that America is in distress.”

Which was, come to think of it, the entire raison d'être of the Trump campaign.

We should wish that every protest movement was so thoughtful and humble in its expression.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/its-trump-vs.-the-nfl-and-were-all-losers/article/2009805#!

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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:09 pm 
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franco32 wrote:
What does kneeling at the anthem even mean? That America has let you down? What is "America"? Is it Trump? Is it the Federal Government? Is it your local politicians that have sold you down the river countless times? Is it your community? Is it your family?

And, what is the problem? Is it the rate of violent crime in the community? Poor schooling? Lack of access to capital? A breakdown of the family unit?

It's all so nebulous. We all talk in generalities meant to satisfy social media sound-bites, but tough problems require a lot of thought and hard work. It means looking in the mirror. How many of the NFL players yesterday are actively working in their communities as much as they can and giving back? Kneeling at the flag isn't going to get it done. It's not even a start. It's a symbolic sham meant for short term appeasement that will lead to no real change.


Well the initial protests, by Kaepernick, were pretty specific.

He began protesting African Americans, he believed, being unfairly targeted and murdered by law enforcement.

Now the filthy orange cocksucker has thrown gas on the flames and the players, rightfully, are fucking pissed.

....and it's become a MUCH larger thing.

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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:13 pm 
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Excellent thanks for posting Pabst.


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:29 pm 
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For me, and yes I'm a retired military person, respect for national symbols are fairly significant. The flag has evolved as the states were added, but symbolically it was and has been the symbol of one of the greatest nations on the planet. We've made mistakes, and I'm pretty sure as a country we'll continue to screw stuff up, but I cannot appreciate how this method of sending a message gets you there. The flag is a symbol of what was, what is, and indeed the future.

Now consider it is draped across the caskets of the fallen (soldiers, police, etc., those is service of the nation or similar) and hosted at the Olympics. Imagine if an American gold medal winner were to refuse to stand on the podium or be present for the anthem of the United States. Would you have an issue with that? Why is each medal ceremony concluded with the anthem? Because it matters. Despite the very worst that a nation can be, we're all prideful (should be) of the country we represent. If not, we can try and change it or leave. Funny, haven't even seen any actors leave the US and move to Canada after the election. Which just to answer the question, no, I do not support what the President is saying. I wish Twitter would exile him.

If there are an anthem and flag, respect it, otherwise please remove it from the event(s). It's your right not to; it's also my right not to agree with you.

As proven by the past year plus, this method of sending a message is a poor one. Everyone is caught up in the disrespect issues and not the original inequality or treatment of blacks at the hands of law enforcement. Perhaps there's a better way to take issue with something? It's not like this group of individuals does not have the financial resources to make a statement of change.

I hope it ends soon so I can watch football again; otherwise, I'm done.


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:44 pm 
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VASteelerGuy wrote:
For me, and yes I'm a retired military person, respect for national symbols are fairly significant. The flag has evolved as the states were added, but symbolically it was and has been the symbol of one of the greatest nations on the planet. We've made mistakes, and I'm pretty sure as a country we'll continue to screw stuff up, but I cannot appreciate how this method of sending a message gets you there. The flag is a symbol of what was, what is, and indeed the future.

Now consider it is draped across the caskets of the fallen (soldiers, police, etc., those is service of the nation or similar) and hosted at the Olympics. Imagine if an American gold medal winner were to refuse to stand on the podium or be present for the anthem of the United States. Would you have an issue with that? Why is each medal ceremony concluded with the anthem? Because it matters. Despite the very worst that a nation can be, we're all prideful (should be) of the country we represent. If not, we can try and change it or leave. Funny, haven't even seen any actors leave the US and move to Canada after the election. Which just to answer the question, no, I do not support what the President is saying. I wish Twitter would exile him.

If there are an anthem and flag, respect it, otherwise please remove it from the event(s). It's your right not to; it's also my right not to agree with you.

As proven by the past year plus, this method of sending a message is a poor one. Everyone is caught up in the disrespect issues and not the original inequality or treatment of blacks at the hands of law enforcement. Perhaps there's a better way to take issue with something? It's not like this group of individuals does not have the financial resources to make a statement of change.

I hope it ends soon so I can watch football again; otherwise, I'm done.


Well said, sir. I could not agree more.

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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:59 pm 
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Hmmm. . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... SxeF68FRsk
(youtube embed doesn't seem to work)

and. . .

http://www.breitbart.com/sports/2017/09 ... om-anthem/

The comments are especially interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:59 pm 
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KCSteeler wrote:
This deal with the anthem is just another example of poor leadership. While you can make the case that the anthem doesn’t need to be played at sporting events, if it is being played, you stand, period. You are a fucking man playing a game for millions of dollars in this country. The fact that this team has an Army veteran on their team and cannot put stupid bullshit aside to stand for him says a lot. I have always loved the Steelers and have been proud to wear gear because it seemed like they stood for something, integrity at a minimum. Yesterday was an embarrassment on many levels.



Well said....totally agree!!


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:03 pm 
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SP wrote:
Nick79 wrote:
...Why does it have to saturate every sports event, especially constantly throughout every single NFL game from beginning to end? It has nothing to do with FOOTBALL, and they ram it down our throats and act like you can't play a game without it?

I wish they'd stop playing the anthem at games, and stop with all the bullshit military displays every 10 minutes! It's a sport, it doesn't need any politics or patriotism, how about we stop dragging soldiers out on the field every 10 minutes to recognize them, let's send out some teachers or paramedics or social workers that HELP PEOPLE sometimes too along with some soldiers? How about ENTIRE GAMES where we don't mention "the flag", "the troops" etc. none of that has a damn thing to do with football, The main reason for the military overkill is the Defense Department PAID FOR IT. .



Always follow the money. The Dept of Defense and National Guard started paying the NFL in 2009 to show the anthem before games to conjure up more patriotism in the country. Before that it wasn't televised like it is now. Keep people happy and content while more of our freedoms are whittled away and the government spies on its citizens. But I love my football team and that flag sure is pretty. 'Merica baby!


And following the money is EXACTLY why the owners aren't insisting that their employees stand for the national anthem....AND...interestingly, why not a one of them has signed the proven QB, Colin Kapernick. Not ONE of them will make the business decision to bring this guy in....fearing the outcry.


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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:05 pm 
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And now, Villanueva jersey sales have beat all other for the past 24 hours

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2081 ... nal-anthem

Quote:
Pittsburgh Steelers offensive lineman Alejandro Villanueva became the best-selling player in the NFL by midday Monday.

A spokesman for Fanatics, which runs the NFL's online store, confirmed to ESPN that, over the past 24 hours, more Villanueva gear, including jerseys and name and number T-shirts, has been ordered than that of any other NFL player.

Villanueva beat out New England Patriots quarterback Tom Brady for the top spot. Philadelphia Eagles quarterback Carson Wentz, Dallas Cowboys quarterback Dak Prescott and Green Bay Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers rounded out the top five over the past day.

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Last edited by jebrick on Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Anthem/Patriotism/The Flag...
PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:05 pm 
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VASteelerGuy wrote:
For me, and yes I'm a retired military person, respect for national symbols are fairly significant. The flag has evolved as the states were added, but symbolically it was and has been the symbol of one of the greatest nations on the planet. We've made mistakes, and I'm pretty sure as a country we'll continue to screw stuff up, but I cannot appreciate how this method of sending a message gets you there. The flag is a symbol of what was, what is, and indeed the future.

Now consider it is draped across the caskets of the fallen (soldiers, police, etc., those is service of the nation or similar) and hosted at the Olympics. Imagine if an American gold medal winner were to refuse to stand on the podium or be present for the anthem of the United States. Would you have an issue with that? Why is each medal ceremony concluded with the anthem? Because it matters. Despite the very worst that a nation can be, we're all prideful (should be) of the country we represent. If not, we can try and change it or leave. Funny, haven't even seen any actors leave the US and move to Canada after the election. Which just to answer the question, no, I do not support what the President is saying. I wish Twitter would exile him.

If there are an anthem and flag, respect it, otherwise please remove it from the event(s). It's your right not to; it's also my right not to agree with you.

As proven by the past year plus, this method of sending a message is a poor one. Everyone is caught up in the disrespect issues and not the original inequality or treatment of blacks at the hands of law enforcement. Perhaps there's a better way to take issue with something? It's not like this group of individuals does not have the financial resources to make a statement of change.

I hope it ends soon so I can watch football again; otherwise, I'm done.


I think they are trying to change it.

Most people who are opposed to this form of protest also have a problem with protesting in the streets. They claim BLM protests devolve into violence and looting. Whether that's a valid criticism or not, it's indisputable that kneeling is a peaceful, silent form of protest that has little chance of escalating into more.

What other methods would you suggest?


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