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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:22 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Ok, let's consider my position pretty much refuted.

Observe your comment that you cannot have good education outcomes where there is crime and no economic hope. But we know that good education is the primary correlate to economic status. So you are possibly pointing out a catch-22. Unless the education outcomes improve, there will be no economic improvement and this contributes to crime and lack of economic hope which makes improving outcomes impossible which reinforces no economic hope and crime and so on.

We are in complete agreement that family factors are are absolutely paramount.


Lit you are being very nice and cordial, but this issue is pretty black and white. Guys like Franco (their are millions in the USA) are greedy. They want theirs and as long as they get theirs they dont give a fuck about anyone else. They know they need a certain percentage of the populace to be uneducated and only have the ability to earn the exorbitant salary of $7.75 per hr.. They need those people so they can have someone to pick up their towel at their club, cut their grass cheaply so they can go to their club, shine their $400 loafers, make them their clubhouse sandwich at the club earning $7.75 per hour so the sandwich only costs $8.00 and they keep more for themselves. They are the only ones who studied, worked hard and earned this lavish lifestyle. THEY are special.

Understanding investment in things like public education will only serve to educate their "$7.75 slave" and perhaps cause them to revolt which will drive up the cost of getting their grass cut and clubhouse sandwich are unacceptable. We must have the haves (me) and the have nots (them). So they pay inner city teachers $35,000 a year, they make their parents work for $7.75 per hour, and the vicious cycle of poverty and crime, and drug abuse propagates itself over and over and over, and Franco gets to keep his.

Living in a socialist country I see first hand every day why paying more into social programs benefits ALL of society even for greedy fucks like the Franco's of the world. We dont have any south beaches, or Palm Springs, or Rodeo drives or Mara Lago's to speak of but our society as a whole is much healthier and its because we treat ALL of the sick, we educate ALL of the people, we fix ALL of the roads, we protect ALL of the people equally etc etc etc. As a result our society is much healthier for ALL of the people. There are countless studies conducted annually on happiest countries and the USA always ranks low. Considering it is the richest country in the world should it not also be one of the happiest??. See below. Count down begins for next greedy fucker to tell us why this is not important and erroneous and that pesky things like statistics that threaten their wealth and standard of living (Global warming statistics??) are useless. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

After ranking fourth for the last two years, Norway jumped three spots and displaced three-time winner Denmark to take the title of "world's happiest country" for the first time in 2016.
Denmark dropped to second place this year, followed by Iceland, Switzerland, Finland, Netherlands, Canada, New Zealand and Australia and Sweden (which tied for ninth place), according to the latest World Happiness Report, released Monday by the Sustainable Development Solutions Network for the United Nations.
Denmark has won the title three of the four times the report has been issued, while Switzerland has won the title just once.
The United States came in 14th place, dropping one place from last yea


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:53 pm 
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franco32 wrote:
What a second. I'm supposed to believe that 22 million non-citizens in this country all follow the honor system? Cmon who are we trying to fool here. These elections are razor tight in some cases....especially the electoral college. And, we are to believe there are only 14 people out there voting as non-citizens?

There are very powerful interests out there attacking any sort of study on election integrity. Trump's commission has been trying to get voter info from all the states to further study the issue. Seems harmless right? I mean if there is nothing to hide, why not cooperate? Trump will just look like a fool in the end, right?

Instead, we have States doing everything they can to block information. We have former Obama administration alumni suing the election integrity commission under the little known Paperwork Reduction Act to try to tie them up in court for years. I wonder why?

It doesn't take much to connect the dots here.


This...

Poltargyst, studies can be done to prove anything. And if nobody is checking ID or proving citizenship then your fancy studies are nothing but a waste if time and money. There is only one stat to measure this. Citizen vs non-citizen. ID check. If you can't prove it you can't disprove it either.

What freaking stats are they using if nobody is checking shit at the door? I don't care what their conclusions are because I don't accept their input data to be sufficient.

And if these studies are so great, why not trust them? Why strongly block any efforts to really look into this? You have these studies that say it isn't happening but in an insignificant number. Prove it then. Allow the investigation. You have your studies so what's there to worry about? Or how about just supporting ID laws. What has happened has happened. Make sure it doesn't again. But they won't even do that. And no, it is not for that one bleeding heart out there that just wants to vote so bad but just can't manage to get that elusive ID. For THAT tiny wee bitty segment of people they need to get themselves squared away before they have a say in someone else's life. Getting an ID has never been an issue in this country. That's a myth. You aren't getting on no social assistance without some form of ID. So there isn't even a segment of people. Illegals don't have ID. Oh wait, except for the ones who got them from DMV. Oh and guess what, automatically registered to vote. It happens. Especially in CA.

And they aren't catching people voting illegally because THEY ARENT LOOKING. They have said they aren't looking. People know they aren't looking. So how can you get caught? By who? Men in Black?

This is elementary stuff. I said I was done. If you want to keep debating with me come back with something of substance. Otherwise, just assume Franco's or Kodiak's response if they so choose to be what I'd likely say because they seem to have a reasonable opinion on these matters.

There be no illegals voting cuz we ain't caught nones yet. Ummm are you looking?

Lastly, I live in CA. The Hispanic community here hates Donald Trump. They loathe him. They want him dead.

But they are not going to vote right? Come on. Defies any logic.

If you can get all that sand washed from your eyes, enjoy the game today. Kick off is in a few...

Go Steelers.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:21 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Lastly, I live in CA. The Hispanic community here hates Donald Trump. They loathe him. They want him dead.


It ain't just the Hispanic community, I can assure you of that.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:05 am 
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I keep seeing this question of "noncitizens want benefits! They hate Trump! Why wouldn't they vote???"

Maybe because it's ILLEGAL, and they don't want to get caught? I'll double check, but I think a conviction of voter fraud can get you five years in prison, a $10,000 fine and if you're a noncitizen, deportation.

Why wouldn't they vote??? Maybe the threat of prison and deportation stops them?

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:43 am 
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Not to get in the way of a voter fraud argument...An article showing the political leanings of sports fans for major sports. The NFL is the only one that is mostly neutral.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/ho ... litically/

Quote:
The showdown between President Trump and the NFL over some players’ decision to kneel during the national anthem to protest racial injustice has raised all kinds of important issues. It’s also put the most popular major sports league in the United States in a difficult position. The NFL’s fan base is much more bipartisan than those of other major sports leagues, and it risks angering one side or the other if it mishandles the situation.

Pro football is unique in that its fandom stretches across partisan lines. Using Google Trends to measure fan interest for a given media market in the United States,1 we calculated the percentage of search traffic over the previous five years for each region related to each of the major professional sports leagues (NFL, NBA, MLB and NHL), as well as college football, college basketball and NASCAR.2 We then compared it to Trump’s vote share in last year’s presidential election in each market. (You can find that data on GitHub here.)

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:47 am 
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Stinger8 wrote:

After ranking fourth for the last two years, Norway jumped three spots and displaced three-time winner Denmark to take the title of "world's happiest country" for the first time in 2016.
Denmark dropped to second place this year, followed by Iceland, Switzerland, Finland, Netherlands, Canada, New Zealand and Australia and Sweden (which tied for ninth place), according to the latest World Happiness Report, released Monday by the Sustainable Development Solutions Network for the United Nations.
Denmark has won the title three of the four times the report has been issued, while Switzerland has won the title just once.
The United States came in 14th place, dropping one place from last year


I can't believe the USA ranks THAT HIGH? Everyone is always pissed off or offended about something.


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:16 am 
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Stinger8 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Ok, let's consider my position pretty much refuted.

Observe your comment that you cannot have good education outcomes where there is crime and no economic hope. But we know that good education is the primary correlate to economic status. So you are possibly pointing out a catch-22. Unless the education outcomes improve, there will be no economic improvement and this contributes to crime and lack of economic hope which makes improving outcomes impossible which reinforces no economic hope and crime and so on.

We are in complete agreement that family factors are are absolutely paramount.


Lit you are being very nice and cordial, but this issue is pretty black and white. Guys like Franco (their are millions in the USA) are greedy. They want theirs and as long as they get theirs they dont give a fuck about anyone else. They know they need a certain percentage of the populace to be uneducated and only have the ability to earn the exorbitant salary of $7.75 per hr.. They need those people so they can have someone to pick up their towel at their club, cut their grass cheaply so they can go to their club, shine their $400 loafers, make them their clubhouse sandwich at the club earning $7.75 per hour so the sandwich only costs $8.00 and they keep more for themselves. They are the only ones who studied, worked hard and earned this lavish lifestyle. THEY are special.

Understanding investment in things like public education will only serve to educate their "$7.75 slave" and perhaps cause them to revolt which will drive up the cost of getting their grass cut and clubhouse sandwich are unacceptable. We must have the haves (me) and the have nots (them). So they pay inner city teachers $35,000 a year, they make their parents work for $7.75 per hour, and the vicious cycle of poverty and crime, and drug abuse propagates itself over and over and over, and Franco gets to keep his.

Living in a socialist country I see first hand every day why paying more into social programs benefits ALL of society even for greedy fucks like the Franco's of the world. We dont have any south beaches, or Palm Springs, or Rodeo drives or Mara Lago's to speak of but our society as a whole is much healthier and its because we treat ALL of the sick, we educate ALL of the people, we fix ALL of the roads, we protect ALL of the people equally etc etc etc. As a result our society is much healthier for ALL of the people. There are countless studies conducted annually on happiest countries and the USA always ranks low. Considering it is the richest country in the world should it not also be one of the happiest??. See below. Count down begins for next greedy fucker to tell us why this is not important and erroneous and that pesky things like statistics that threaten their wealth and standard of living (Global warming statistics??) are useless. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

After ranking fourth for the last two years, Norway jumped three spots and displaced three-time winner Denmark to take the title of "world's happiest country" for the first time in 2016.
Denmark dropped to second place this year, followed by Iceland, Switzerland, Finland, Netherlands, Canada, New Zealand and Australia and Sweden (which tied for ninth place), according to the latest World Happiness Report, released Monday by the Sustainable Development Solutions Network for the United Nations.
Denmark has won the title three of the four times the report has been issued, while Switzerland has won the title just once.
The United States came in 14th place, dropping one place from last yea


Norway has roughly the population of Colorado with a VERY homogenous population and a massive amount of natural resources per capita. Which I'm sure you know if you live there. Apples to Oranges would be an understatement.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:36 am 
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R S wrote:
Stinger8 wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Ok, let's consider my position pretty much refuted.

Observe your comment that you cannot have good education outcomes where there is crime and no economic hope. But we know that good education is the primary correlate to economic status. So you are possibly pointing out a catch-22. Unless the education outcomes improve, there will be no economic improvement and this contributes to crime and lack of economic hope which makes improving outcomes impossible which reinforces no economic hope and crime and so on.

We are in complete agreement that family factors are are absolutely paramount.


Lit you are being very nice and cordial, but this issue is pretty black and white. Guys like Franco (their are millions in the USA) are greedy. They want theirs and as long as they get theirs they dont give a fuck about anyone else. They know they need a certain percentage of the populace to be uneducated and only have the ability to earn the exorbitant salary of $7.75 per hr.. They need those people so they can have someone to pick up their towel at their club, cut their grass cheaply so they can go to their club, shine their $400 loafers, make them their clubhouse sandwich at the club earning $7.75 per hour so the sandwich only costs $8.00 and they keep more for themselves. They are the only ones who studied, worked hard and earned this lavish lifestyle. THEY are special.

Understanding investment in things like public education will only serve to educate their "$7.75 slave" and perhaps cause them to revolt which will drive up the cost of getting their grass cut and clubhouse sandwich are unacceptable. We must have the haves (me) and the have nots (them). So they pay inner city teachers $35,000 a year, they make their parents work for $7.75 per hour, and the vicious cycle of poverty and crime, and drug abuse propagates itself over and over and over, and Franco gets to keep his.

Living in a socialist country I see first hand every day why paying more into social programs benefits ALL of society even for greedy fucks like the Franco's of the world. We dont have any south beaches, or Palm Springs, or Rodeo drives or Mara Lago's to speak of but our society as a whole is much healthier and its because we treat ALL of the sick, we educate ALL of the people, we fix ALL of the roads, we protect ALL of the people equally etc etc etc. As a result our society is much healthier for ALL of the people. There are countless studies conducted annually on happiest countries and the USA always ranks low. Considering it is the richest country in the world should it not also be one of the happiest??. See below. Count down begins for next greedy fucker to tell us why this is not important and erroneous and that pesky things like statistics that threaten their wealth and standard of living (Global warming statistics??) are useless. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

After ranking fourth for the last two years, Norway jumped three spots and displaced three-time winner Denmark to take the title of "world's happiest country" for the first time in 2016.
Denmark dropped to second place this year, followed by Iceland, Switzerland, Finland, Netherlands, Canada, New Zealand and Australia and Sweden (which tied for ninth place), according to the latest World Happiness Report, released Monday by the Sustainable Development Solutions Network for the United Nations.
Denmark has won the title three of the four times the report has been issued, while Switzerland has won the title just once.
The United States came in 14th place, dropping one place from last yea


Norway has roughly the population of Colorado with a VERY homogenous population and a massive amount of natural resources per capita. Which I'm sure you know if you live there. Apples to Oranges would be an understatement.


You are living in a river in Egypt DENILE


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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 6:50 am 
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http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2096 ... -flag-play

What will he do if the players call his bluff?

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:50 pm 
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I want to know who decides what is political and what is not.

The mention of pence bailing on a game as a political stunt is verboten.

But mentions of Castro or Venezuela to prove a political point are OK? It's a fine line, and someone has to be the ombudsman. Unfortunately, there is nobody qualified to be that person.

There has to be a better way.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:01 am 
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The NFL changes it's policy on National Anthem
https://deadspin.com/the-nfl-quietly-ch ... 1819300660

Quote:
The 2014 policy reads that failure to be on the field by the start of the national anthem may “result in disciplinary action from the League office.” The version currently being promulgated by the NFL revises this to read “result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violation of the above, including first offenses.”

That’s a pretty big change for two reasons: They’ve added a lot of punishment, and they’ve removed the language that punishment would come from the league office. We don’t know when the change was made; its language did not appear on the web at all until two weeks ago, and questions sent to an NFL spokesperson have yet to be answered.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:20 pm 
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Some states prohibit discrimination based on political belief :
Quote:
Mark Tushnet, law professor, Harvard University
The answer's the same as the one given when people asked whether private employers can fire supporters of the Charlottesville white supremacy demonstrations: The general rule is yes, but that has to be qualified because some states have anti-discrimination laws that prohibit employment discrimination on the basis of political affiliation, and some of those statutes might be interpreted to cover the players' activities.
This page lists the states that detail workplace discrimination based on political activism, affiliation, or belief : https://www.workplacefairness.org/retal ... activity#1

More interesting anecdotes :
Quote:
Like most states, and like the federal government in Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, New York does not include “political views” or “political activities” in its list of categories protected by discrimination laws. However, the New York statute does prohibit discrimination on the basis of “creed.” Although the “creed” clause is most commonly invoked to prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion, the word has a sufficiently broad dictionary definition to include political beliefs as well.
and
Quote:
However, the EEOC goes on to state that “[s]ocial, political, or economic philosophies . . . are not ‘religious’ beliefs protected by Title VII.” This is a distinction that is difficult to define, and the EEOC makes no serious attempt to do so. If the facts presented in a particular case are favorable, it may be possible to convince a court that the distinction between protected non-theistic ethical beliefs on the one hand and unprotected political philosophies on the other is so untenable as to be arbitrary and capricious. This would open the door to at least some types of claims of political discrimination in federal court.
From here : http://www.nylaborandemploymentlawrepor ... -new-york/

Also : The Flag code

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8

Quote:
(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker’s desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general
If people get their panties in a twist over kneeling during the anthem, why not for flags as bikini's? After all, wearing a flag bikini bottom is like wiping your ass with the flag.

It also brings to mind the arguments over the pledge of allegiance. Although it was restricted to public not private schools and slightly different, the arguments were parallel. From Wiki :
Quote:
Some people generally oppose the pledge because they feel that the mandatory recital of what amounts to an oath, particularly by children, led by government employees in public schools, is a form of compulsory speech, amounting to indoctrination, that is the antithesis of the liberty the flag itself represents.[35] Indeed, in Barnette, Justices Black and Douglas wrote in a concurring opinion, "Words uttered under coercion are proof of loyalty to nothing but self-interest. Love of country must spring from willing hearts and free minds, inspired by a fair administration of wise laws enacted by the people's elected representatives within the bounds of express constitutional prohibitions." And, the majority opinion by Justice Robert Jackson, included one of the great statements in American constitutional law and history, "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein.'"
But if J. Jones benches or cuts players that kneel, what if it's Prescott, Elliot, and Bryant? Half the defense? It would surely mean they'd lose games easily. Then what? Is Jones prepared to lose advertisers because the cowboys are in last place? Or lose ticket sales? What if that happens throughout the league? It would surely mean the demise of the NFL. Threats of retaliation is unproductive and incendiary.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:54 pm 
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Unless the bikini or tshirt was an actual flag cut up and made into an article of clothing it violates nothing. So please, enough with that comparison. A girl can wear a red white and blue bikini with stars and stripes.

https://www.legion.org/flag/questions-a ... tates-flag

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:09 pm 
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That’s splitting hairs and missing the point. The anthem is a symbol, as is the flag. I guess by your logic swastikas can be used anywhere as long as it’s not on an actual nazi or nazi flag? Is that like holy water? You can use regular water for a bidet but not holy water? Frankly, I think you should be able to wipe your ass with a flag, and use a swastika wherever you want. It was around long before ww2. That’s probably why I don’t care if people take a knee or take a shit during the anthem.

But the cognitive dissonance of being so goddamn fervent in fightn’ fer freedoms, do whatever the fuck you want as long as it's not unconstitutional, don’t tread on me, then whine like a snowflake because someone isn’t as patriotic as you is making my head hurt.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:32 pm 
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The NFL AND the players are so stupid about this Anthem BS

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2098 ... them-stand

Quote:
PHILADELPHIA -- Eagles safety Malcolm Jenkins said that players around the league will continue in their efforts to raise awareness about social injustice regardless of how the NFL decides to address demonstrations during the national anthem.

"I think we've seen even over the last year that you can take a player out of the league, you can threaten to do whatever you want to do, that's not going to deter players from doing what's right, or doing what they believe is right," Jenkins said Tuesday. "You might be able to change the manner in which that looks but I don't see players stopping their pursuit for justice or equality."


The NFL could have defused this by telling teams to stay in the locker room until the Anthem is over. In 4 weeks know one would remember it happened. Now you will get a showdown. And Trump wins no matter what happens. Everyone else, including the fans, lose.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:00 am 
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Now Trump is egging on the players and the NFL over this non-issue :roll:

Quote:
President Donald Trump praised the NFL for cracking down on players who don't stand during the National Anthem. But the league hasn't done that.

Trump said on Twitter Wednesday that NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell is now ordering all players to stand during the national anthem.

"It is about time that Roger Goodell of the NFL is finally demanding that all players STAND for our great National Anthem-RESPECT OUR COUNTRY," he said in an early-morning tweet.


No one is going to care about the 49'ers getting fined but what are they going to do when the Cowboy's stars call Jones on his stupidity. Which should never reach this level but Trump sees an opportunity to keep the spotlight on this and not on what he is doing. Players will not be able to resist taking the bait. :evil:

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:02 am 
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I hate being right about this

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2098 ... rced-stand

Quote:
Tampa Bay Buccaneers defensive lineman Gerald McCoy, speaking on Adam Schefter's Know Them From Adam podcast, said he thinks there might "be an uproar" if NFL players are forced to stand for the national anthem.

"I don't think guys are gonna like it," McCoy said, when asked about the possible reaction from players. "I think it's gonna be an uproar if that is to happen because you're basically taking away a constitutional right to freedom of speech. If guys wanna have a, I guess you would call it a peaceful protest, I don't think it's right to take that away."


Trump has set the hook and now will reel them in. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:23 pm 
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and as predicted, when Jones made his stupid pronouncement

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2099 ... erry-jones

Quote:
In a meeting with coaches, Dallas Cowboys players were told to bring their concerns about comments made by Jerry Jones regarding his stance on the national anthem to the owner and general manager, according to a source.

"If there's anything that is disrespectful to the flag, then we will not play," Jones said after Sunday's loss to the Green Bay Packers. "Understand? We will not ... if we are disrespecting the flag, then we will not play. Period."

Jones reiterated the stance on numerous occasions since. A local labor union has filed a complaint to the National Labor Relations Board against the Cowboys saying Jones' threats prevent allowable, "concerted activity" at work. The team and the NFL declined comment on the filing.

Players returned to the practice field Wednesday for the first time since the Packers game and are scheduled to meet with the media in the afternoon.


Cowboy fans can only hope that they players want to win more than prove a point.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:02 am 
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just because it is funny

http://pvponline.com/comic/2017-10-11

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:40 am 
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R S wrote:
Norway has roughly the population of Colorado with a VERY homogenous population and a massive amount of natural resources per capita. Which I'm sure you know if you live there. Apples to Oranges would be an understatement.


I assume Norway is much healthier. I'm confused, though. I have not heard that Norway is some giant oil powerhouse. Are they funding healthcare through timber exports?

I fail to see the reason why we cannot have a minimal socialized universal coverage plan with cost controls. This coverage will be unacceptable to the middle class and beyond. The good news is that the middle class and wealthy can purchase private, supplemental insurance.

Why can't that happen?

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:21 am 
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It is estimated that the Norwegian section alone contains 54% of the sea's oil reserves and 45% of its gas reserves. More than half of the North Sea oil reserves have been extracted, according to official sources in both Norway and the UK.


Norway makes quite a bit on money on oil and gas. They are also not a stupid as Venezuela in terms of spending or had the good luck to have a complete infrastructure built before they hit it big with oil.

All of which has nothing to do with the healthcare argument but information to stop any straw-man arguments.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:11 am 
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
It is estimated that the Norwegian section alone contains 54% of the sea's oil reserves and 45% of its gas reserves. More than half of the North Sea oil reserves have been extracted, according to official sources in both Norway and the UK.


Norway makes quite a bit on money on oil and gas. They are also not a stupid as Venezuela in terms of spending or had the good luck to have a complete infrastructure built before they hit it big with oil.

All of which has nothing to do with the healthcare argument but information to stop any straw-man arguments.


Obviously I did not know. Majority state owned, too, so RS has a real point.

I still wonder that we cannot have a minimal form of universal coverage. I have no desire to have some cockamamie scheme implemented that spends us into oblivion. There has to be cost control. But I hate the idea that the health of citizens should have a market value. I think there are ethical demonstrations to be made that not only is health NOT a market good, but that putting a market value on a human being's health is in fact immoral. But who wants to pay for someone else's poor choices? I don't,

The main obstacle as far as I can tell is not how much it would cost in a vacuum, but how much less healthy Americans tend to be relative to European nations. When I was in Cologne city center for 10 days last summer, I saw maybe three obese people, tops.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:21 pm 
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Since we toss Norway around I can find that they spend 9.3% of their GDP on Healthcare whereas the US spends about 16.9%. Amazingly, Norway is 2nd to the US in healthcare spending % per GDP. Medicare and Medicad combined come to 1.1 Trillion per year vs 551 Billion on the Military ( before any budget changes).

This just leads me to think that it is the healthcare system that is the problem. The US is spending much more than everyone else per person and getting less. It is no solution to your question but more of a lead that it is not easy and throwing money at the current system is not sustainable.

With healthcare it is who will pay for it because the service will get done and someone will be charged.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:01 pm 
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I think a lot of it comes down to the seeming fact that Americans simply do not live as healthily as our European friends. Historically the poor are uninsured and only show up when cancer is already stage whatever and often are unable or choose not to live healthily and many of the better off simply are not healthy by choice.

Maybe I'm wrong on this. If we were a nation of salad eaters and swimmers, how much would healthcare cost?

In principle, it strikes me as totally stupid to pay for middle men to get health. The counter argument is that the govt can't do anything right.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:19 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
I think a lot of it comes down to the seeming fact that Americans simply do not live as healthily as our European friends.


That's part of it. But, indeed, the problem is primarily structural - our doctors also make 2-3X, at least, what doctors in Europe do. Similar story with hospitalization.

Only 3 countries have a higher per capita PUBLIC spending than the US!
Image

This is also interesting:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... d06b7a694b

And here's the real story (which the above WaPo article further illustrates): Drug costs (comparing to averages for France/Germany/Canada) are only about 10% of the cost gap. Administration about 15%. The rest is hospitalization, doctor visits/outpatien (ambulatory care).
Image

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