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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:01 am 
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The NFL changes it's policy on National Anthem
https://deadspin.com/the-nfl-quietly-ch ... 1819300660

Quote:
The 2014 policy reads that failure to be on the field by the start of the national anthem may “result in disciplinary action from the League office.” The version currently being promulgated by the NFL revises this to read “result in discipline, such as fines, suspensions, and/or the forfeiture of draft choice(s) for violation of the above, including first offenses.”

That’s a pretty big change for two reasons: They’ve added a lot of punishment, and they’ve removed the language that punishment would come from the league office. We don’t know when the change was made; its language did not appear on the web at all until two weeks ago, and questions sent to an NFL spokesperson have yet to be answered.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:20 pm 
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Some states prohibit discrimination based on political belief :
Quote:
Mark Tushnet, law professor, Harvard University
The answer's the same as the one given when people asked whether private employers can fire supporters of the Charlottesville white supremacy demonstrations: The general rule is yes, but that has to be qualified because some states have anti-discrimination laws that prohibit employment discrimination on the basis of political affiliation, and some of those statutes might be interpreted to cover the players' activities.
This page lists the states that detail workplace discrimination based on political activism, affiliation, or belief : https://www.workplacefairness.org/retal ... activity#1

More interesting anecdotes :
Quote:
Like most states, and like the federal government in Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, New York does not include “political views” or “political activities” in its list of categories protected by discrimination laws. However, the New York statute does prohibit discrimination on the basis of “creed.” Although the “creed” clause is most commonly invoked to prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion, the word has a sufficiently broad dictionary definition to include political beliefs as well.
and
Quote:
However, the EEOC goes on to state that “[s]ocial, political, or economic philosophies . . . are not ‘religious’ beliefs protected by Title VII.” This is a distinction that is difficult to define, and the EEOC makes no serious attempt to do so. If the facts presented in a particular case are favorable, it may be possible to convince a court that the distinction between protected non-theistic ethical beliefs on the one hand and unprotected political philosophies on the other is so untenable as to be arbitrary and capricious. This would open the door to at least some types of claims of political discrimination in federal court.
From here : http://www.nylaborandemploymentlawrepor ... -new-york/

Also : The Flag code

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8

Quote:
(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker’s desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general
If people get their panties in a twist over kneeling during the anthem, why not for flags as bikini's? After all, wearing a flag bikini bottom is like wiping your ass with the flag.

It also brings to mind the arguments over the pledge of allegiance. Although it was restricted to public not private schools and slightly different, the arguments were parallel. From Wiki :
Quote:
Some people generally oppose the pledge because they feel that the mandatory recital of what amounts to an oath, particularly by children, led by government employees in public schools, is a form of compulsory speech, amounting to indoctrination, that is the antithesis of the liberty the flag itself represents.[35] Indeed, in Barnette, Justices Black and Douglas wrote in a concurring opinion, "Words uttered under coercion are proof of loyalty to nothing but self-interest. Love of country must spring from willing hearts and free minds, inspired by a fair administration of wise laws enacted by the people's elected representatives within the bounds of express constitutional prohibitions." And, the majority opinion by Justice Robert Jackson, included one of the great statements in American constitutional law and history, "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein.'"
But if J. Jones benches or cuts players that kneel, what if it's Prescott, Elliot, and Bryant? Half the defense? It would surely mean they'd lose games easily. Then what? Is Jones prepared to lose advertisers because the cowboys are in last place? Or lose ticket sales? What if that happens throughout the league? It would surely mean the demise of the NFL. Threats of retaliation is unproductive and incendiary.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:54 pm 
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Unless the bikini or tshirt was an actual flag cut up and made into an article of clothing it violates nothing. So please, enough with that comparison. A girl can wear a red white and blue bikini with stars and stripes.

https://www.legion.org/flag/questions-a ... tates-flag

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:09 pm 
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That’s splitting hairs and missing the point. The anthem is a symbol, as is the flag. I guess by your logic swastikas can be used anywhere as long as it’s not on an actual nazi or nazi flag? Is that like holy water? You can use regular water for a bidet but not holy water? Frankly, I think you should be able to wipe your ass with a flag, and use a swastika wherever you want. It was around long before ww2. That’s probably why I don’t care if people take a knee or take a shit during the anthem.

But the cognitive dissonance of being so goddamn fervent in fightn’ fer freedoms, do whatever the fuck you want as long as it's not unconstitutional, don’t tread on me, then whine like a snowflake because someone isn’t as patriotic as you is making my head hurt.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:32 pm 
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The NFL AND the players are so stupid about this Anthem BS

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2098 ... them-stand

Quote:
PHILADELPHIA -- Eagles safety Malcolm Jenkins said that players around the league will continue in their efforts to raise awareness about social injustice regardless of how the NFL decides to address demonstrations during the national anthem.

"I think we've seen even over the last year that you can take a player out of the league, you can threaten to do whatever you want to do, that's not going to deter players from doing what's right, or doing what they believe is right," Jenkins said Tuesday. "You might be able to change the manner in which that looks but I don't see players stopping their pursuit for justice or equality."


The NFL could have defused this by telling teams to stay in the locker room until the Anthem is over. In 4 weeks know one would remember it happened. Now you will get a showdown. And Trump wins no matter what happens. Everyone else, including the fans, lose.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:00 am 
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Now Trump is egging on the players and the NFL over this non-issue :roll:

Quote:
President Donald Trump praised the NFL for cracking down on players who don't stand during the National Anthem. But the league hasn't done that.

Trump said on Twitter Wednesday that NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell is now ordering all players to stand during the national anthem.

"It is about time that Roger Goodell of the NFL is finally demanding that all players STAND for our great National Anthem-RESPECT OUR COUNTRY," he said in an early-morning tweet.


No one is going to care about the 49'ers getting fined but what are they going to do when the Cowboy's stars call Jones on his stupidity. Which should never reach this level but Trump sees an opportunity to keep the spotlight on this and not on what he is doing. Players will not be able to resist taking the bait. :evil:

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:02 am 
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I hate being right about this

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2098 ... rced-stand

Quote:
Tampa Bay Buccaneers defensive lineman Gerald McCoy, speaking on Adam Schefter's Know Them From Adam podcast, said he thinks there might "be an uproar" if NFL players are forced to stand for the national anthem.

"I don't think guys are gonna like it," McCoy said, when asked about the possible reaction from players. "I think it's gonna be an uproar if that is to happen because you're basically taking away a constitutional right to freedom of speech. If guys wanna have a, I guess you would call it a peaceful protest, I don't think it's right to take that away."


Trump has set the hook and now will reel them in. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:23 pm 
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and as predicted, when Jones made his stupid pronouncement

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2099 ... erry-jones

Quote:
In a meeting with coaches, Dallas Cowboys players were told to bring their concerns about comments made by Jerry Jones regarding his stance on the national anthem to the owner and general manager, according to a source.

"If there's anything that is disrespectful to the flag, then we will not play," Jones said after Sunday's loss to the Green Bay Packers. "Understand? We will not ... if we are disrespecting the flag, then we will not play. Period."

Jones reiterated the stance on numerous occasions since. A local labor union has filed a complaint to the National Labor Relations Board against the Cowboys saying Jones' threats prevent allowable, "concerted activity" at work. The team and the NFL declined comment on the filing.

Players returned to the practice field Wednesday for the first time since the Packers game and are scheduled to meet with the media in the afternoon.


Cowboy fans can only hope that they players want to win more than prove a point.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:02 am 
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just because it is funny

http://pvponline.com/comic/2017-10-11

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:40 am 
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R S wrote:
Norway has roughly the population of Colorado with a VERY homogenous population and a massive amount of natural resources per capita. Which I'm sure you know if you live there. Apples to Oranges would be an understatement.


I assume Norway is much healthier. I'm confused, though. I have not heard that Norway is some giant oil powerhouse. Are they funding healthcare through timber exports?

I fail to see the reason why we cannot have a minimal socialized universal coverage plan with cost controls. This coverage will be unacceptable to the middle class and beyond. The good news is that the middle class and wealthy can purchase private, supplemental insurance.

Why can't that happen?

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:21 am 
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Quote:
It is estimated that the Norwegian section alone contains 54% of the sea's oil reserves and 45% of its gas reserves. More than half of the North Sea oil reserves have been extracted, according to official sources in both Norway and the UK.


Norway makes quite a bit on money on oil and gas. They are also not a stupid as Venezuela in terms of spending or had the good luck to have a complete infrastructure built before they hit it big with oil.

All of which has nothing to do with the healthcare argument but information to stop any straw-man arguments.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:11 am 
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jebrick wrote:
Quote:
It is estimated that the Norwegian section alone contains 54% of the sea's oil reserves and 45% of its gas reserves. More than half of the North Sea oil reserves have been extracted, according to official sources in both Norway and the UK.


Norway makes quite a bit on money on oil and gas. They are also not a stupid as Venezuela in terms of spending or had the good luck to have a complete infrastructure built before they hit it big with oil.

All of which has nothing to do with the healthcare argument but information to stop any straw-man arguments.


Obviously I did not know. Majority state owned, too, so RS has a real point.

I still wonder that we cannot have a minimal form of universal coverage. I have no desire to have some cockamamie scheme implemented that spends us into oblivion. There has to be cost control. But I hate the idea that the health of citizens should have a market value. I think there are ethical demonstrations to be made that not only is health NOT a market good, but that putting a market value on a human being's health is in fact immoral. But who wants to pay for someone else's poor choices? I don't,

The main obstacle as far as I can tell is not how much it would cost in a vacuum, but how much less healthy Americans tend to be relative to European nations. When I was in Cologne city center for 10 days last summer, I saw maybe three obese people, tops.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:21 pm 
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Since we toss Norway around I can find that they spend 9.3% of their GDP on Healthcare whereas the US spends about 16.9%. Amazingly, Norway is 2nd to the US in healthcare spending % per GDP. Medicare and Medicad combined come to 1.1 Trillion per year vs 551 Billion on the Military ( before any budget changes).

This just leads me to think that it is the healthcare system that is the problem. The US is spending much more than everyone else per person and getting less. It is no solution to your question but more of a lead that it is not easy and throwing money at the current system is not sustainable.

With healthcare it is who will pay for it because the service will get done and someone will be charged.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 2:01 pm 
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I think a lot of it comes down to the seeming fact that Americans simply do not live as healthily as our European friends. Historically the poor are uninsured and only show up when cancer is already stage whatever and often are unable or choose not to live healthily and many of the better off simply are not healthy by choice.

Maybe I'm wrong on this. If we were a nation of salad eaters and swimmers, how much would healthcare cost?

In principle, it strikes me as totally stupid to pay for middle men to get health. The counter argument is that the govt can't do anything right.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:19 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
I think a lot of it comes down to the seeming fact that Americans simply do not live as healthily as our European friends.


That's part of it. But, indeed, the problem is primarily structural - our doctors also make 2-3X, at least, what doctors in Europe do. Similar story with hospitalization.

Only 3 countries have a higher per capita PUBLIC spending than the US!
Image

This is also interesting:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... d06b7a694b

And here's the real story (which the above WaPo article further illustrates): Drug costs (comparing to averages for France/Germany/Canada) are only about 10% of the cost gap. Administration about 15%. The rest is hospitalization, doctor visits/outpatien (ambulatory care).
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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:41 pm 
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Kodiak wrote:
That's part of it. But, indeed, the problem is primarily structural - our doctors also make 2-3X, at least, what doctors in Europe do. Similar story with hospitalization. ...


Good points. The AMA is a huge culprit, artificially constraining the supply of practitioners. Of course this not only bloats health care costs, but creates a dangerous shortage of doctors.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:27 pm 
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I find that I am unable to decide my position regarding whether a girl wearing a flag bikini is disrespecting the flag or not. Further research is required. I intend to study these pictures very closely until I have come to a decision. So to speak.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:54 pm 
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Admire your dedication to objectivity, Poltargyst.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:23 pm 
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Poltargyst wrote:
I find that I am unable to decide my position regarding whether a girl wearing a flag bikini is disrespecting the flag or not. Further research is required. I intend to study these pictures very closely until I have come to a decision. So to speak.

Image

Image

That's about as patriotic as it gets. Murica!

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:42 pm 
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Y-Town Steel wrote:
That's about as patriotic as it gets. Murica!


Let me tell ya, every red-blooded 'Murican man is gonna salute those flags!

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:54 am 
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A couple things. I think I already said this earlier, but unless they took an actual flag, cut it up and made it into bikinis, then there is nothing there against the flag code.

-the spending shows that the healthcare system is broken and throwing more money at it likely won't make it better.

-I have no problems with doctors making the money they do. Med school is outrageously expensive. it takes a decade or more of schooling before they can start making real money. If you wanna talk about doctor shortages, start paying them a lot less and see who signs up for all that.....

somethings gotta give. either cheaper med school, faster tracks, etc. if you wanna get cost down on MD's

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:53 am 
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My understand is the malpractice insurance is helping to driving up the price of care. Yes medical school is expensive and people come out of it with $100K+ in debt. But doctors are stopping practice because of the cost of the insurance. Now is that mean there needs to be tort reform? Putting a ceiling on how much a mistake is worth?

There is no silver bullet for the health care system. Tossing an unfunded mandate to the States will not work. Perhaps they need a system like Oregon had/has where they list procedures that they will pay for.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:53 am 
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R S wrote:
A couple things. I think I already said this earlier, but unless they took an actual flag, cut it up and made it into bikinis, then there is nothing there against the flag code.

-the spending shows that the healthcare system is broken and throwing more money at it likely won't make it better.

-I have no problems with doctors making the money they do. Med school is outrageously expensive. it takes a decade or more of schooling before they can start making real money. If you wanna talk about doctor shortages, start paying them a lot less and see who signs up for all that.....

somethings gotta give. either cheaper med school, faster tracks, etc. if you wanna get cost down on MD's


Liberal Arts PhDs (physics, math, philosophy, history) piss away 10 years of prime earning power to get a PhD and get paid peanuts. Boo fucking hoo. The problem is medical schools price gouging their students. Law and Medicine: degrees granted by universities and yet totally unfunded for the students unlike all the other PhD programs. It's a fucking racket! Tuition sky high for undergrads and yet none of it apparently funds medical school costs. Meanwhile sports programs pull in obscene amounts of money.

Now surely I have no idea what I'm talking about. This is a totally unresearched post on my part. I fully admit it.

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:47 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
R S wrote:
A couple things. I think I already said this earlier, but unless they took an actual flag, cut it up and made it into bikinis, then there is nothing there against the flag code.

-the spending shows that the healthcare system is broken and throwing more money at it likely won't make it better.

-I have no problems with doctors making the money they do. Med school is outrageously expensive. it takes a decade or more of schooling before they can start making real money. If you wanna talk about doctor shortages, start paying them a lot less and see who signs up for all that.....

somethings gotta give. either cheaper med school, faster tracks, etc. if you wanna get cost down on MD's


Liberal Arts PhDs (physics, math, philosophy, history) piss away 10 years of prime earning power to get a PhD and get paid peanuts. Boo fucking hoo. The problem is medical schools price gouging their students. Law and Medicine: degrees granted by universities and yet totally unfunded for the students unlike all the other PhD programs. It's a fucking racket! Tuition sky high for undergrads and yet none of it apparently funds medical school costs. Meanwhile sports programs pull in obscene amounts of money.

Now surely I have no idea what I'm talking about. This is a totally unresearched post on my part. I fully admit it.


Can't you work a decent job while pursuing a PhD? Even have your schooling paid for by said employee? Does it really take 10 years of schooling for a PhD?

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 Post subject: Re: GET OUT OF MY SPORTS!!!!
PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:01 pm 
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10 years is an exaggeration.

7 to 8 years is not.

You cannot work a decent job unless you want things to take even longer. Generally, liberal arts PhD candidates are funded by the uni.

After course work and comprehensive exams, you have to write a 250 page monograph that no one outside your diss committee will ever read. Said monograph takes quite a while to complete bc having never done it before, one has no idea what one is doing.

All in all, it's an impressively dumb thing to do.

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