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 Post subject: Re: The Mothership is Afire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:56 pm 
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955876 wrote:

Im not against some of the points you are raising Jebrick. My comment was to make people admit/realize that if all guns were confiscated or people strong armed/forced to turn them in by the government then the ONLY people who should still have guns would be the criminals. They aren’t turning theirs in and most don’t own them legally so can’t be tracked.

The scumbag that shot up the Texas church was kicked out of Air Force for committing a violent crime. The AF was required (by law) to inform DOJ of this upon his discharge but failed to do so.

Had they did as required by laws already on the books that scumbag would not have been able to purchase the guns used in his sick crime.

If we simply enforce the laws already out there we’d cut down in this shit. But the hiv can’t even do that. And yet more laws will?

What also isn’t happening is the enforcement of penalties when people with criminal records are caught with guns who shouldn’t have them. Police have complained of this.


which is why we should be funding the ATF and police. And we should be giving them every weapon to stop illegal weapon sales. Just throwing our hands up solves nothing. Why can't they enforce the laws. it is not because they are ignoring them. Making it easier to trace firearms movement is one answer. Making smart firearms is another small step. Doing nothing should not be an option.

But again. If nothing got done after 26 teachers and children are killed then nothing is going to happen. The Government will continue to cut metal heath care ( which Trump blamed on the last 2 mass shootings). Sure it is a problem but what can we do :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: The Mothership is Afire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:59 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
Lets rather assume a law is passed that all fire arms are registered in a federal DB. Lets assume that the law requires reporting a stolen weapon within 2 weeks of it happening or it will be a crime. Lets assume that any crime commit with a stolen weapon that was not reported is also charged against the person who did not report it. Lets assume that the ATF will do data mining to determine if anyone seems to have reported a lot of stolen weapons that later show up in crimes. Could that help law enforcement with straw sales? Would that help with 80% of the illegal firearm sales?

Maybe. It could also incentivize people to purchase guns illegally rather than deal with the headache you just described. As mentioned earlier, both the Charleston shooter and Texas shooter should have been barred from owning guns, but the Feds fucked up their database.

Honestly, I think alot of this debate is backward. I personally would rather see us enforce existing laws and focus on removing guns from known criminals and the mentally ill; then we can make gun laws more restrictive for law-abiding citizens.

Quote:
which is why we should be funding the ATF and police. And we should be giving them every weapon to stop illegal weapon sales. Just throwing our hands up solves nothing. Why can't they enforce the laws. it is not because they are ignoring them. Making it easier to trace firearms movement is one answer. Making smart firearms is another small step. Doing nothing should not be an option.

But again. If nothing got done after 26 teachers and children are killed then nothing is going to happen. The Government will continue to cut metal heath care ( which Trump blamed on the last 2 mass shootings). Sure it is a problem but what can we do :roll:

Or....government is just incompetent. Education and health care are concrete proof that throwing money at a problem doesn't solve it.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mothership is Afire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:02 pm 
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Still Lit wrote:
Tundralag wrote:
Guns are here to stay.. sorry but its tooooo late to put the genie back in the bottle on that... so no sense in getting your short hairs in a bundle..


But then I'm not one of the dumb fucks who argue that he needs automatic assault rifles to defend himself from the government. My point is that if your rationale for owning crazy guns is to defend yourself from the government, you're an idiot. I do not care how stockpiled you are. You are not going to win. Just ask the Branch Dividians or the malcontent ranchers out west how it works it out.

And since I nowhere in my post cited that it would be good to take everyone's guns away, you responded not to one, but to two claims that I do not make.

I don't mind folks owning hand guns for personal or home protection. I don't mind folks owning hunting rifles.

Absolutely no reason for the general public to have access semi or fully automatic weaponry.


you have to be careful when defining semi automatic weapons. It is already illegal to buy automatic weapons unless you have a federal permit as a collector ( since the 30's I think). As I have said, I would ban the kits that turn semi-automatic weapons into automatic weapon. I would then make the law retroactive so if you did have one of these weapons you needed to remove the modification or be against the law.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mothership is Afire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:03 pm 
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955876 wrote:
Not yet. Wife and kids did though.


Tisk, tisk.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mothership is Afire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:04 pm 
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Pabst wrote:
jebrick wrote:
Lets rather assume a law is passed that all fire arms are registered in a federal DB. Lets assume that the law requires reporting a stolen weapon within 2 weeks of it happening or it will be a crime. Lets assume that any crime commit with a stolen weapon that was not reported is also charged against the person who did not report it. Lets assume that the ATF will do data mining to determine if anyone seems to have reported a lot of stolen weapons that later show up in crimes. Could that help law enforcement with straw sales? Would that help with 80% of the illegal firearm sales?

Maybe. It could also incentivize people to purchase guns illegally rather than deal with the headache you just described. As mentioned earlier, both the Charleston shooter and Texas shooter should have been barred from owning guns, but the Feds fucked up their database.

Honestly, I think alot of this debate is backward. I personally would rather see us enforce existing laws and focus on removing guns from known criminals and the mentally ill; then we can make gun laws more restrictive for law-abiding citizens.

Quote:
which is why we should be funding the ATF and police. And we should be giving them every weapon to stop illegal weapon sales. Just throwing our hands up solves nothing. Why can't they enforce the laws. it is not because they are ignoring them. Making it easier to trace firearms movement is one answer. Making smart firearms is another small step. Doing nothing should not be an option.

But again. If nothing got done after 26 teachers and children are killed then nothing is going to happen. The Government will continue to cut metal heath care ( which Trump blamed on the last 2 mass shootings). Sure it is a problem but what can we do :roll:

Or....government is just incompetent. Education and health care are concrete proof that throwing money at a problem doesn't solve it.



your right. Lets do nothing and pray for the dead.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mothership is Afire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:06 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Tundralag wrote:
Guns are here to stay.. sorry but its tooooo late to put the genie back in the bottle on that... so no sense in getting your short hairs in a bundle..


But then I'm not one of the dumb fucks who argue that he needs automatic assault rifles to defend himself from the government. My point is that if your rationale for owning crazy guns is to defend yourself from the government, you're an idiot. I do not care how stockpiled you are. You are not going to win. Just ask the Branch Dividians or the malcontent ranchers out west how it works it out.

And since I nowhere in my post cited that it would be good to take everyone's guns away, you responded not to one, but to two claims that I do not make.

I don't mind folks owning hand guns for personal or home protection. I don't mind folks owning hunting rifles.

Absolutely no reason for the general public to have access semi or fully automatic weaponry.


you have to be careful when defining semi automatic weapons. It is already illegal to buy automatic weapons unless you have a federal permit as a collector ( since the 30's I think). As I have said, I would ban the kits that turn semi-automatic weapons into automatic weapon. I would then make the law retroactive so if you did have one of these weapons you needed to remove the modification or be against the law.


Fair enough.

I like England's model prior to their effective banning of handguns.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mothership is Afire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:07 pm 
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Tundralag wrote:
Still Lit wrote:
Tundralag wrote:
Guns are here to stay.. sorry but its tooooo late to put the genie back in the bottle on that... so no sense in getting your short hairs in a bundle..


But then I'm not one of the dumb fucks who argue that he needs automatic assault rifles to defend himself from the government. My point is that if your rationale for owning crazy guns is to defend yourself from the government, you're an idiot. I do not care how stockpiled you are. You are not going to win. Just ask the Branch Dividians or the malcontent ranchers out west how it works it out.

And since I nowhere in my post cited that it would be good to take everyone's guns away, you responded not to one, but to two claims that I do not make.

I don't mind folks owning hand guns for personal or home protection. I don't mind folks owning hunting rifles.

Absolutely no reason for the general public to have access semi or fully automatic weaponry.


Of course there is.. I have a couple of browning BARII semi auto's in 3006 and 338 win mag.. I have box clips for these that hold ten rounds.. When I hunt pigs or have a drive hunt it makes it easier to stay on target than to drop the gun and chamber another round using a standard bolt system.. So in a pinch I can get six or seven hogs in a group..
so yes semi autos can be used for hunting or pleasure shooting without the other hoopla your trying to attach..
My 3 assault rifles have been in my safe for 15+ years.. they have never gone out and killed anyone on there own.. Gun = Tool.. Simple as that..
psycho killer = psycho killer..


Yeah, I get all this. You don't need those guns to shoot a pig. Somehow, if you had non-auto rifles, you would survive. Somehow.

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Last edited by Still Lit on Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mothership is Afire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:07 pm 
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Again Jebrick. I’m not arguing against sensible measures. The problem lies when laws are passed simply to pass a law so some politician can say look why I did to protect you.

Often times it does nothing to stop real crime and only prevents law abiding citizens from protecting themselves.

Every time I’ve purchased a gun I’ve had to pass a DOJ background check. They know what I have already.

And I agree you should be required to report stolen weapons. I know would as I wouldn’t want something getting traced back to me.

An example of bogus efforts are stupid things like “gun free zones” which do nothing but provide soft targets. That school shooting comes to mind.

Wanna protect kids? Have teachers take annual firearms class and then put a gun in the classroom. They can be locked up in fingerprint ID safes.

Scumbags might think twice about walking into a classroom if the possibility existed that the teacher might be armed. Certainly better than the big “Gun free zone” sign out front.


Last edited by 955876 on Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mothership is Afire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:09 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
your right. Lets do nothing and pray for the dead.

I actually said:
Pabst wrote:
Honestly, I think alot of this debate is backward. I personally would rather see us enforce existing laws and focus on removing guns from known criminals and the mentally ill; then we can make gun laws more restrictive for law-abiding citizens.


Second, I sincerely hate the mentality of "we have to do something!" in the face of a problem/crisis. 'Doing something' can actually make things worse (Obamacare). Making an emotional decision in the face of a tragedy might actually be the wrong one (Dept of Homeland Security, Patriot Act).

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 Post subject: Re: The Mothership is Afire
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:23 pm 
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Quote:
Honestly, I think alot of this debate is backward. I personally would rather see us enforce existing laws and focus on removing guns from known criminals and the mentally ill; then we can make gun laws more restrictive for law-abiding citizens.


This.

As an aside, last year I went through the process of obtaining my concealed carry permit.

Instructor was a police officer for 30 years. I asked him if he had ever seen a case where a person with a legal concealed carry permit had ever used their firearm to defend themselves and that shooting later to be found to be a bogus shooting. In other words, deadly force was found to not be required and thus the shooter was now in hot water.

He said not one time.

A large % of police support legal concealed carry.

FWIW


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