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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 9:18 am 
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Aside from being a smug, entitled, general douchebag (not necessarily a bar to success; see Harbaugh, Jim), Lane Kiffin is also a walking NCAA violation. I was extremely surprised to hear his name batted about for big-time jobs when it was, and completely unsurprised that that was the level of coaching job he got. Look at his tenure at USC and (even worse) Tennessee. He's awful, and leaves programs considerably worse than they were when he found them.

I agree about college football, by the way. Along with Penguins hockey, NCAAF is my current favorite sport, with the Steelers a medium-distance 3rd, and the rest of the NFL somewhere behind Formula One racing.


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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:00 am 
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Ice wrote:
I kind of like that the outcome isn't predetermined.

The thing is, you're evaluating a bunch of 18-22 year old kids, for the most part. They can quite literally grow up and change as a season goes on. They play in different conferences, in different parts of the country, and even if they're playing common opponents, they're playing them at different times in their own respective seasons. It just really isn't possible to take subjective evaluation out of the equation.

If you can't handle that, may I humbly suggest that you stick to professional football.


I pretty much do not watch the beauty contest playoffs of CFB, I want college football to change to a logical system like all the NORMAL SPORTS have so that I can be interested in it. I like the way the division and conference winners qualify in the NORMAL SPORTS, even if they aren't the BEST TEAMS, put's pressure on the best teams to win their leagues.


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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:01 am 
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superk wrote:
If Florida had pulled the upset against Bama, you really want to see them in??



Yes, I don't care who the best teams are, I want advancement determined by winning certain games, like in the normal sports.


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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:39 am 
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Nick79 wrote:
Ice wrote:
I kind of like that the outcome isn't predetermined.

The thing is, you're evaluating a bunch of 18-22 year old kids, for the most part. They can quite literally grow up and change as a season goes on. They play in different conferences, in different parts of the country, and even if they're playing common opponents, they're playing them at different times in their own respective seasons. It just really isn't possible to take subjective evaluation out of the equation.

If you can't handle that, may I humbly suggest that you stick to professional football.


I pretty much do not watch the beauty contest playoffs of CFB, I want college football to change to a logical system like all the NORMAL SPORTS have so that I can be interested in it. I like the way the division and conference winners qualify in the NORMAL SPORTS, even if they aren't the BEST TEAMS, put's pressure on the best teams to win their leagues.


I think it's nice that not all sports fit the same cookie-cutter mold, first off. Second off, like I said, there's subjectivity built into CFB. There has to be. It isn't a 30-32 team league, like all other "normal sports," with normative mechanisms like scheduling difficulty inverse to previous season's record and common drafts to insure a nice, orderly pecking order. Some years, some conferences are up, some years, other conferences are down; some years, one team's nonconference strength of schedule just doesn't measure up (whether it's through any fault of their own, or just the natural variance teams go through), some years the bad loss happens at the right time, and sometimes, it just doesn't always make perfect, empirical sense. If you can't embrace a little chaos, like I said, perhaps this just isn't the sport for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:05 am 
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Nick, do you watch/play golf?


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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:35 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Nick79 wrote:
Ice wrote:
I kind of like that the outcome isn't predetermined.

The thing is, you're evaluating a bunch of 18-22 year old kids, for the most part. They can quite literally grow up and change as a season goes on. They play in different conferences, in different parts of the country, and even if they're playing common opponents, they're playing them at different times in their own respective seasons. It just really isn't possible to take subjective evaluation out of the equation.

If you can't handle that, may I humbly suggest that you stick to professional football.


I pretty much do not watch the beauty contest playoffs of CFB, I want college football to change to a logical system like all the NORMAL SPORTS have so that I can be interested in it. I like the way the division and conference winners qualify in the NORMAL SPORTS, even if they aren't the BEST TEAMS, put's pressure on the best teams to win their leagues.


I think it's nice that not all sports fit the same cookie-cutter mold, first off. Second off, like I said, there's subjectivity built into CFB. There has to be. It isn't a 30-32 team league, like all other "normal sports," with normative mechanisms like scheduling difficulty inverse to previous season's record and common drafts to insure a nice, orderly pecking order. Some years, some conferences are up, some years, other conferences are down; some years, one team's nonconference strength of schedule just doesn't measure up (whether it's through any fault of their own, or just the natural variance teams go through), some years the bad loss happens at the right time, and sometimes, it just doesn't always make perfect, empirical sense. If you can't embrace a little chaos, like I said, perhaps this just isn't the sport for you.


You're right, it isn't the sport for me as it stands, you see it as chaos, I see it as entrenched entitlement. I don't think it would be too much to ask to have all of the Power 5 champions qualify, you'd still have 3 spots for corporate welfare to bring in the blue blood teams that you feel bad for, who are supposed to be the BEST, but where FAILURES in actual games and didn't win their league.

I pretty much watch every Pitt Panthers game, and pretty much no other games, so I do have an interest. My issue is, if Pitt ever goes and wins an ACC title game some day, I'd like that ALONE to qualify them to be crushed by 'Bama in a playoff, that's part of why I want automatic qualifiers :lol:

And besides, what difference does it make if conferences are up or down? The thing some people don't get is that being CHAMPION has nothing to do with being BEST TEAM, so maybe a weak conference champ comes in, pulls an upset and runs the table and knocks off the top 3 seeds, like the Steelers did in '05, I see that is the essence of sports, not the BEST team winning every time.


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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:42 pm 
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superk wrote:
Nick, do you watch/play golf?


I did play golf for about 20-25 years, kind of gave up on it the last 3-4 years. And funny how as soon as I wasn't playing regularly, I lost interest in watching it about the same time, so what's your point? I can't imagine any comparison with golf and football?


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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:41 pm 
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Golf is my favorite sport, not just because I play and my daughters play, but largely because of the objectivity.

There is no hype in golf. You are as good as your scores. period. Pros get paid (rare exception of appearance fee for lesser tournaments for only the big names) based on performance. No make cut, no make paycheck. Just you. Rules pretty much Crystal clear with rare exception (DJs penalty at Oakmont this year was nonsense in addition to against the laws of physics, fortunately he still won).

I figured you'd like it as well based on your views on football....


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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:59 pm 
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superk wrote:
Golf is my favorite sport, not just because I play and my daughters play, but largely because of the objectivity.

There is no hype in golf. You are as good as your scores. period. Pros get paid (rare exception of appearance fee for lesser tournaments for only the big names) based on performance. No make cut, no make paycheck. Just you. Rules pretty much Crystal clear with rare exception (DJs penalty at Oakmont this year was nonsense in addition to against the laws of physics, fortunately he still won).

I figured you'd like it as well based on your views on football....


Exactly true. I do like golf, kind of just gotten out of it the last few years. But they do have some sponsors exemptions for the name guys who haven't performed and lost their card or something like that? Right?

Here's my thing about the college football playoff, If a team is so great, why shouldn't we demand they win? I really hate when a top team is upset in week 10 or 11 and the talking heads go into overdrive beginning the propaganda to have the LOSERS get a 2nd chance over the teams that beat them. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather have a lesser team advance, than give corporate welfare to a rich guy who had all the advantages that went bankrupt.

Part of that is that I don't think Champion and Best is always the same. For a long time Tiger was best golfer, but there where always a bunch of nameless, faceless, nobodies, who own MAJOR CHAMPIONSHIPS because that one day, they rose up and did it, and I don't find that disappointing that the BEST was beaten.


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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:07 pm 
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So Western Michigan should be in the championship?

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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:55 pm 
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Western Michigan should be in their respective places of worship, praying Wisconsin gets the date wrong and doesn't show up.....


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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:58 pm 
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I can appreciate what you're saying about the Steelers' Super Bowl run of 2005 (and, while we're at it, the Pens' runs in 2009 and 2016). It's part of the beauty of what you've been referring to as "normal" (I would probably just say professional) sports. That underdog story is possible, as they're sports of peaks and valleys, played against pretty level competition; as most leagues have a certain amount of parity built in (baseball excluded, here).

College, at least as I've always seen it, just has a different set of parameters. You had better bring your A game every single week, because any old loss (even to Pitt, who certainly had a part to play this year; without their wins over Clemson and PSU, the playoff would look decidedly different), in any old week, can be the thing that keeps you out. Western Michigan? You can go undefeated, but unless you schedule a Michigan or MSU, or Ohio State (or Pitt) out of conference, we're never going to know. Every choice in scheduling is meaningful, every quarter of every single game is potentially meaningful. Your team could get screwed. There is a human element. You have to sweat out a decision by a relatively anonymous group, literally referred to as The Committee. Everything has to fall together perfectly, and then, maybe, you get a chance. There is no easy (or complicated, really) math that determines who is the best team. Or even the best four; and believe me, if they went to eight, there'd still be three or four schools a year with legitimate gripes. It really is trying to make order out of chaos. I guess it's just a different kind of compelling.


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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:02 pm 
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superk wrote:
Western Michigan should be in their respective places of worship, praying Wisconsin gets the date wrong and doesn't show up.....


but they are undefeated and won their conference championship....Unless it is not being chosen on the field.


I personally do not mind the current system. Although I feel that Washington got rewarded for playing a soft non-conference schedule which will lead to teams not scheduling tough opponents ( think Ohio state vs Oklahoma). i would not add any more slots as it leads to bracket inflation.

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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:15 pm 
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agree. plus they can't play more games. these guys are finished physically at this time and the NFL bound are starting combine prep (need to look good in shorts doing shuttle run and burpees so you catch Tomlin's eye)

College is just different. NFL is a single winner. Anything less is a losa in draft position. College has many winners. division, rivalry, conference, bowl, and the Natty. college football is dialed in right now....


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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:32 pm 
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Ice wrote:
Everything has to fall together perfectly, and then, maybe, you get a chance. There is no easy (or complicated, really) math that determines who is the best team. Or even the best four; and believe me, if they went to eight, there'd still be three or four schools a year with legitimate gripes. It really is trying to make order out of chaos. I guess it's just a different kind of compelling.


I think the 8 teams with 3 at large bids is where it needs to end up. I would even accept 6 teams with the top 2 teams getting a first week bye. Getting the 5 conference champs in is better for the game nation wide. I don't make the rules so I will just be happy watching the games as they are dished up to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:35 pm 
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superk wrote:
agree. plus they can't play more games. these guys are finished physically at this time and the NFL bound are starting combine prep (need to look good in shorts doing shuttle run and burpees so you catch Tomlin's eye)

College is just different. NFL is a single winner. Anything less is a losa in draft position. College has many winners. division, rivalry, conference, bowl, and the Natty. college football is dialed in right now....


I disagree. I am sure that every other level of college football requires you to win 4 games in the tournament to win a national title FCS, D-2, D-3 NAIA anything that I am missing?


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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:40 pm 
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jebrick wrote:
So Western Michigan should be in the championship?


No, the Power 5 Leagues should break away from those other teams, since they aren't at the same level. Then the Power 5 Champions, every one, should be in the playoff, so make it 8 teams, the P5 Champs and 3 wild cards for the BEST TEAMS that are LOSERS on the field of play and couldn't win their leagues..

Or, yes WMU should be in, I would even be ok with the P5 Champs., 2 wild cards and the best of the non-P5 Champs, which would be CMU this year. Why not? If they're considered all D1-A, then it's only right that any one of the 120+ teams in it should be able to get in. and if the 3rd best LOSER from the SEC or B1G is left out, I won't be crying.


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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:41 pm 
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superk wrote:
Western Michigan should be in their respective places of worship, praying Wisconsin gets the date wrong and doesn't show up.....


I'll be rooting for WM, any time a team like that succeeds it blows up the system a little more each time.


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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:11 am 
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Nick79 wrote:
jebrick wrote:
So Western Michigan should be in the championship?


No, the Power 5 Leagues should break away from those other teams, since they aren't at the same level. Then the Power 5 Champions, every one, should be in the playoff, so make it 8 teams, the P5 Champs and 3 wild cards for the BEST TEAMS that are LOSERS on the field of play and couldn't win their leagues..

Or, yes WMU should be in, I would even be ok with the P5 Champs., 2 wild cards and the best of the non-P5 Champs, which would be CMU this year. Why not? If they're considered all D1-A, then it's only right that any one of the 120+ teams in it should be able to get in. and if the 3rd best LOSER from the SEC or B1G is left out, I won't be crying.


So Western Michigan should only get in if they expand the bracket? Not on being undefeated and winning their conference. So wins mean nothing on the field. Someone else gets to decide who is allowed in the playoffs not based on wins.

You just want a different way of deciding which teams get into the playoffs. It is still not based on wins. The underdog can never be invited to the dance.

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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:33 am 
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jebrick wrote:
Nick79 wrote:
jebrick wrote:
So Western Michigan should be in the championship?


No, the Power 5 Leagues should break away from those other teams, since they aren't at the same level. Then the Power 5 Champions, every one, should be in the playoff, so make it 8 teams, the P5 Champs and 3 wild cards for the BEST TEAMS that are LOSERS on the field of play and couldn't win their leagues..

Or, yes WMU should be in, I would even be ok with the P5 Champs., 2 wild cards and the best of the non-P5 Champs, which would be CMU this year. Why not? If they're considered all D1-A, then it's only right that any one of the 120+ teams in it should be able to get in. and if the 3rd best LOSER from the SEC or B1G is left out, I won't be crying.


So Western Michigan should only get in if they expand the bracket? Not on being undefeated and winning their conference. So wins mean nothing on the field. Someone else gets to decide who is allowed in the playoffs not based on wins.

You just want a different way of deciding which teams get into the playoffs. It is still not based on wins. The underdog can never be invited to the dance.


Myself, ME, since WMU's league is considered, D1-A, same as the SEC or B1G. I'd be ok with them getting in right now, since technically they are at the same "level" as the teams that are in. I just didn't bring it up because that would really freak people out.

In1984, BYU was an undefeated non-Power 5 team, they went 13-0 and won the NC by defeating 6-5 Michigan in the Holiday bowl before NYD, so there is a precedent for it, they stayed ranked #1 through the end, basically just for being unbeaten.

http://www.si.com/more-sports/2009/08/06/byu-1984

Personally, I WANT the underdogs in, If I could really have my way, I'd have a 16 team tournament and invite ALL ELEVEN conference champs, yup MAC, Sun Belt, USA, AAC all of them and 5 wild cards.


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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 11:59 pm 
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I think i forgot to mention that they suck. That was good enough reason to keep them out

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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:23 am 
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Western Michigan and Boise State should not be in the playoffs...unless...

they advance to the Big 10 or the Pac 10 through a promotion/relegation system similar to EPL soccer.

The system should be as follows with two team promotion/relegation on an annual basis between tier one and two:

Big 10-MAC
Pac 10-Big West
Big 12-Mountain West
SEC-SunBelt/CUSA
ACC-AAC

Also instead of worthless pre-Christmas bowls, teams would be playing relegation bowls to stay in the top tier.

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 Post subject: Re: Ohio St. should be out of the playoff
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:31 am 
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Dan Smith--BYU wrote:
Western Michigan and Boise State should not be in the playoffs...unless...

they advance to the Big 10 or the Pac 10 through a promotion/relegation system similar to EPL soccer.

The system should be as follows with two team promotion/relegation on an annual basis between tier one and two:

Big 10-MAC
Pac 10-Big West
Big 12-Mountain West
SEC-SunBelt/CUSA
ACC-AAC

Also instead of worthless pre-Christmas bowls, teams would be playing relegation bowls to stay in the top tier.

I am a big fan of relegation/promotion.

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