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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:30 am 
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SteelPro wrote:
The salary cap has had virtually no impact on the Penguins successes. The NHL salary has done nothing to resolve small/market large market competive balances issues in the NHL. In large part because there never was a competitive balance issue in hockey. Were the large market high revenues teams hording playoff spots and Stanley Cups in the 80's, 90's and first half of the 00's? I don't think so. Let's ask Bethlehemsteel how many Cups the Flyers won those years. Chicago won zilch. The Rangers won a single cup. Toronto won nothing and they are perennialy the highest revenue club in Canada (and often the whole league). Meanwhile the Pens won Cups in both eras. And Pittsburgh isn't really a small market in hockey anyway. They are top 10 revenue club. From a pure size perspective Pittsburgh hockey market ranks higher than the Pittsburgh baseball market within the league. There are way more NHL teams in small markets than in baseball.




I get where you're coming from, but it's a bit of a wrong picture.


The NHL was a case of nipping things in the bud. You point to the 80s and 90s, but salary disparity didn't really begin heavily until about 1997-1998, which ironically coincides with the arms race between Colorado/Detroit and with a New Jersey team always near the top in league salary (aka the teams that pretty much dominated the cup picture for about a decade). To break it down more, the highest payroll in 92-93 was 14.8 million (NYR). The league average was 10 million. The highest paid player was Eric Lindros at 3.5 million. By 2003-04, the league average payroll was 44 million and the highest was the Red Wings at 77.8 million. The highest paid player was Jaromir Jagr at 11.5 million a year, or 1 million less than what Connor McDavid is making annually 14 years later. That's a whole lot more dough and a lot larger of a gap. Baseball's chance to close the gap came and went around 98.

If you asked me which teams were the most successful during that 97-04 stretch of time, with maybe the exception of the 04 Cup of TB/CGY, I'd say Detroit, Colorado, Dallas, and New Jersey were near the top of the list--all teams consistently at the top of the near the top of the payroll. Despite their massive money, Toronto never became a big-time spender in the league until 99-00, which by no coincidence was the start of a five-season streak of postseason berths until the lockout and coincided with a massive contract to goaltender Curtis Joseph.

Around the 04-05 lockout, the NHL realized that salaries were at a breaking point, with some teams ballooning too much with contracts that simply couldn't be met in a league that had very little revenue sharing, no luxury tax, and no cap. The cap did and still does have a monumental impact on the Penguins. With bankruptcy, the Penguins couldn't afford many of their players and had to dump quality out the ass (Kovalev, debatably Jagr, Lang, Straka, to name a few). Had a system of revenue sharing+cap been in place, maybe those players stay and maybe the team is more successful. Maybe the Penguins don't get Crosby/Malkin as a result. Even today, I find it hard to fathom that a team like NY wouldn't try to snipe Malkin from the Penguins . Or maybe they offer Letang a $10 million dollar contract a few seasons ago. A salary cap takes out the asinine money, moderates everything, and allows teams to retain their own players (assuming they want to come back).

Success in the NHL today is about forming a team identity, making smart free agent decisions and trades, and getting lucky with amazingly talented draft picks. It's all about managing a team within a cap environment. I thank god every day that a) Sidney Crosby is loyal b) he was never in a situation where 20+ teams were bidding for his services in a capless world. In that scenario, Crosby either resigns and the team sucks without Malkin or Sid's off to Washington or Toronto.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deeadline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:54 am 
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fortythree wrote:
Im the opposite. I don't think they're good enough but I don't think there's any one player they can get or position they can upgrade that makes them contenders.

So I try to sell.

I try to trade Cutch. I try to trade Freese. I see what I can get for Rivero.

If I don't get blow away deals then I keep them and maybe consider being a buyer.

But if I can get one or two major league ready potential stars to add to this lineup next year, I do it.


Why so you can contend for the wild card in 2020? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:59 am 
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Y-Town Steel wrote:
Marte not being available for the postseason really fucks things up in my mind,


Worry about that when you get there.

This franchise is so cheap the entertainment value is just securing a wild card.

That's to us like winning the WS is to the Yankees at this point.

Forget about the future, worry about cracking the champagne if you can finish 88-74 and get to a WC game.

Trading Cutch for "prospects" is really a low % play, what are the odds that any one of them is ever as good as Cutch is now? Little to no chance IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:22 pm 
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http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/joe- ... 1708010111

Stakey's pissed.

Quote:
How incredible was it to see positive reaction, even a little, to the Pirates’ do-nothing deadline, which followed a do-nothing four months from management?

Here you have a team 5½ games out of first place, about to embark on an eight-game homestand and still with seven games left against the division-leading Cubs, and it’s OK to crawl under a desk on deadline day?

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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:14 pm 
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So I return from a nice vacation to see the Pirates neither tried to do anything this year, nor set themselves up for next year.

Color me not surprised.

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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:52 pm 
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Jeemie wrote:
So I return from a nice vacation to see the Pirates neither tried to do anything this year, nor set themselves up for next year.

Color me not surprised.


Yeah, I sort of wondered where you've been.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:08 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:12 pm
Posts: 425
Jeemie wrote:
So I return from a nice vacation to see the Pirates neither tried to do anything this year, nor set themselves up for next year.

Color me not surprised.

Not that I'm arguing with the general point, but it is good to see Serpico back.


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 Post subject: Re: Neal Huntington and Buccos at the trade deadline
PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:52 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:50 pm
Posts: 3435
Hacksaw Jim Duggan wrote:
SteelPro wrote:
The salary cap has had virtually no impact on the Penguins successes. The NHL salary has done nothing to resolve small/market large market competive balances issues in the NHL. In large part because there never was a competitive balance issue in hockey. Were the large market high revenues teams hording playoff spots and Stanley Cups in the 80's, 90's and first half of the 00's? I don't think so. Let's ask Bethlehemsteel how many Cups the Flyers won those years. Chicago won zilch. The Rangers won a single cup. Toronto won nothing and they are perennialy the highest revenue club in Canada (and often the whole league). Meanwhile the Pens won Cups in both eras. And Pittsburgh isn't really a small market in hockey anyway. They are top 10 revenue club. From a pure size perspective Pittsburgh hockey market ranks higher than the Pittsburgh baseball market within the league. There are way more NHL teams in small markets than in baseball.




I get where you're coming from, but it's a bit of a wrong picture.


The NHL was a case of nipping things in the bud. You point to the 80s and 90s, but salary disparity didn't really begin heavily until about 1997-1998, which ironically coincides with the arms race between Colorado/Detroit and with a New Jersey team always near the top in league salary (aka the teams that pretty much dominated the cup picture for about a decade). To break it down more, the highest payroll in 92-93 was 14.8 million (NYR). The league average was 10 million. The highest paid player was Eric Lindros at 3.5 million. By 2003-04, the league average payroll was 44 million and the highest was the Red Wings at 77.8 million. The highest paid player was Jaromir Jagr at 11.5 million a year, or 1 million less than what Connor McDavid is making annually 14 years later. That's a whole lot more dough and a lot larger of a gap. Baseball's chance to close the gap came and went around 98.

If you asked me which teams were the most successful during that 97-04 stretch of time, with maybe the exception of the 04 Cup of TB/CGY, I'd say Detroit, Colorado, Dallas, and New Jersey were near the top of the list--all teams consistently at the top of the near the top of the payroll. Despite their massive money, Toronto never became a big-time spender in the league until 99-00, which by no coincidence was the start of a five-season streak of postseason berths until the lockout and coincided with a massive contract to goaltender Curtis Joseph.

Around the 04-05 lockout, the NHL realized that salaries were at a breaking point, with some teams ballooning too much with contracts that simply couldn't be met in a league that had very little revenue sharing, no luxury tax, and no cap. The cap did and still does have a monumental impact on the Penguins. With bankruptcy, the Penguins couldn't afford many of their players and had to dump quality out the ass (Kovalev, debatably Jagr, Lang, Straka, to name a few). Had a system of revenue sharing+cap been in place, maybe those players stay and maybe the team is more successful. Maybe the Penguins don't get Crosby/Malkin as a result. Even today, I find it hard to fathom that a team like NY wouldn't try to snipe Malkin from the Penguins . Or maybe they offer Letang a $10 million dollar contract a few seasons ago. A salary cap takes out the asinine money, moderates everything, and allows teams to retain their own players (assuming they want to come back).

Success in the NHL today is about forming a team identity, making smart free agent decisions and trades, and getting lucky with amazingly talented draft picks. It's all about managing a team within a cap environment. I thank god every day that a) Sidney Crosby is loyal b) he was never in a situation where 20+ teams were bidding for his services in a capless world. In that scenario, Crosby either resigns and the team sucks without Malkin or Sid's off to Washington or Toronto.


Excellent post Hacksaw - been waiting for Steel Pro Joe's response.


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